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Oyster at Finsbury Park
Posters have appeared at the entrances to Finsbury Park station
(famously without ticket gates) telling Pre-Pay Oyster users to touch the validators entering and exiting the station. That is fine - but this is followed by: "Customers with Oyster Cards charged with Travelcard Season tickets not valid at Finsbury Park (Zone 2) are also advised to touch their cards on the validators" Can someone explain what this is about? |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
Richard Adamfi wrote:
Posters have appeared at the entrances to Finsbury Park station (famously without ticket gates) telling Pre-Pay Oyster users to touch the validators entering and exiting the station. That is fine - but this is followed by: "Customers with Oyster Cards charged with Travelcard Season tickets not valid at Finsbury Park (Zone 2) are also advised to touch their cards on the validators" Can someone explain what this is about? They have these machines on the platforms at Highbury & Islington too. Don't understand why anyone would swipe an Oyster or give up a Carnet when they aren't forced to. BTW hos do Oysters work on National Rail services? |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
they also say you should swipe your oyster as you enter a station even if
the gates are open, or you might have a problem at your exit station. my local station gates are always open and I never swipe it, and I have had no problems on exit. I think it is a case of 'Big Brother wants to know where you are and where you are going'. "Stuart" wrote in message k... Richard Adamfi wrote: Posters have appeared at the entrances to Finsbury Park station (famously without ticket gates) telling Pre-Pay Oyster users to touch the validators entering and exiting the station. That is fine - but this is followed by: "Customers with Oyster Cards charged with Travelcard Season tickets not valid at Finsbury Park (Zone 2) are also advised to touch their cards on the validators" Can someone explain what this is about? They have these machines on the platforms at Highbury & Islington too. Don't understand why anyone would swipe an Oyster or give up a Carnet when they aren't forced to. BTW hos do Oysters work on National Rail services? |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Horace
writes they also say you should swipe your oyster as you enter a station even if the gates are open, or you might have a problem at your exit station. my local station gates are always open and I never swipe it, and I have had no problems on exit. I think it is a case of 'Big Brother wants to know where you are and where you are going'. I think that comment shows perfectly that the message about Pre Pay isn't getting across. No, it doesn't matter so much if you've only a season ticket on your oyster card but if you're using Pre Pay, you'll be charged a lot more than necessary for the journey if you don't touch the reader on either the way in or out... -- Kat "A world without string is chaos" |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:19:56 +0000, Richard Adamfi
wrote: Posters have appeared at the entrances to Finsbury Park station (famously without ticket gates) telling Pre-Pay Oyster users to touch the validators entering and exiting the station. That is fine - but this is followed by: "Customers with Oyster Cards charged with Travelcard Season tickets not valid at Finsbury Park (Zone 2) are also advised to touch their cards on the validators" Can someone explain what this is about? I think it is a badly worded attempt to explain that if you have a Travelcard for say Zone 3 and arrive at Finsbury Park (Zone 2) *and* have pre-pay value on your card that you must validate so that the reader can make a pre-pay deduction for the out of zone travel. In other words "please be honest and validate and pay for your travel, don't dodge your fare". With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster card but if you are out of zone you do for the purposes of calculation of auto ticket extensions. As to the Highbury validators that it is to deal with the issue of someone opting to have a pre-pay card for LUL services but opting to purchase a day return from Welwyn Garden City to Highbury. The pre-pay must be validated on entry to LUL and at Highbury you do that at platform level. It would be impossible to impose a rule that said you must go the ticket hall, exit on your NR ticket and then re-enter and go all the way back to the Tube platform having activated your Oyster card at the gates. There are many instances of these open interchanges on the system and LUL is the only large scale application of a stored value system to have such "gaps" in the system. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
... With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster card but if you are out of zone you do for the purposes of calculation of auto ticket extensions. I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your journey's end. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:45:19 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote: I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your journey's end. Is it possible for an inspector to check tickets further from the platform than the validator? For example, you have a zone 3 Travelcard, go to Finsbury Park, pass the validator, then inspector gets you for not validating? |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In article , John Rowland
writes "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster card but if you are out of zone you do for the purposes of calculation of auto ticket extensions. I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your journey's end. Presumably, TfL are working on the principle that once people find out they have inadvertently used up all the value on the Oyster by not validating it on entry, they will get used to the idea - and cynic TfL will have received extra revenue /cynic. Not being able to get out through the gates because you haven't remember to swipe on the way in should focus peoples minds. Mind you, that all requires the gates to be manned by people who will explain the system and not just swipe people though, or ignore jumpers and tailgaters... -- Steve -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCM/B$ d++(-) s+:+ a+ C++ UL++ L+ P+ W++ N+++ K w--- O V PS+++ PE- t+ 5++ X- R* tv+ b+++ DI++ G e h---- r+++ z++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , John Rowland
writes "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster card but if you are out of zone you do for the purposes of calculation of auto ticket extensions. I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your journey's end. But this is no different from the magnetic ticket system. CofC state that you must have a ticket to cover the whole of the journey you are making. A RCI finding no Pre Pay balance on an Oyster could either issue a paper extension ticket or a £10.00 Penalty Fare. -- Kat "bears, said the taxi driver, is sixpence extra, sticky bears is ninepence" |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:47:28 +0000, Kat
wrote: But this is no different from the magnetic ticket system. CofC state that you must have a ticket to cover the whole of the journey you are making. A RCI finding no Pre Pay balance on an Oyster could either issue a paper extension ticket or a £10.00 Penalty Fare. I think the argument here is that you would always keep a Pre Pay balance, just in case you had to validate. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Richard Adamfi
writes On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:45:19 -0000, "John Rowland" wrote: I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your journey's end. Is it possible for an inspector to check tickets further from the platform than the validator? For example, you have a zone 3 Travelcard, go to Finsbury Park, pass the validator, then inspector gets you for not validating? If you mean, do RCIs only operate on the paid-side, then the answer is no. -- Kat "bears, said the taxi driver, is sixpence extra, sticky bears is ninepence" |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Richard Adamfi
writes On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:47:28 +0000, Kat wrote: But this is no different from the magnetic ticket system. CofC state that you must have a ticket to cover the whole of the journey you are making. A RCI finding no Pre Pay balance on an Oyster could either issue a paper extension ticket or a £10.00 Penalty Fare. I think the argument here is that you would always keep a Pre Pay balance, just in case you had to validate. And if you never intend to add Pre Pay to your Oyster, always make sure you buy an extension. From what I've gathered, the £10.00 Penalty Fare is going to be very strictly enforced now. -- Kat Reality is the leading cause of stress among those in touch with it. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:45:19 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster card but if you are out of zone you do for the purposes of calculation of auto ticket extensions. I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your journey's end. there are other ways of knowing how a card is (mis)used. Be sure that the ability to detect fraud will get better not worse. Open (ungated) entry and exit points are not a good way to design a stored value system but the scheme is unaffordable if it has to carry the cost of gating and manning every single entry / exit point to the LUL system. Also how on earth do you deal with segregating people e.g. between Richmond and Gunnersbury, where there is inter-operation? It's a compromise design - there are risks but they have to be controlled. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
"John Rowland" wrote in
: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster card but if you are out of zone you do for the purposes of calculation of auto ticket extensions. I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your journey's end. It will be interesting to see what happens: given the capacity of the system to remember journeys made it would be reasonable to assume some kind of ability to query this database and identify potentially fraudulent travel patterns such as this. Now where is my copy of the Data Protection Act? David |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
"John Rowland" wrote in message
... "Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster card but if you are out of zone you do for the purposes of calculation of auto ticket extensions. I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your journey's end. I think I've seen the flaw in my argument. (By the way, all of the following is supposition since I haven't read any Oyster leaflets.) Even if your Oyster contains a valid travelcard for the whole journey, you are still required to swipe at the beginning and end of your journey. If an RCI catches you halfway through your journey with an unswiped Oyster containing a valid travelcard for the zone in which you currently are, this looks suspicious but you would presumably just be warned to swipe in future. If the RCI catches you are out of your valid zone with an unswiped oyster, you can then be busted. If you are out of your zone with a swiped Oyster, then you are obviously intending to swipe on exit and be charged for the extension... if you don't swipe on exit, you will be charged the maximum possible extension (to zone 6D or whatever). Therefore the system can not generally be defrauded in the way I suggested. But a possible fraud does spring to mind. You have a 2 to 6 Travelcard in your Oyster. You swipe when you enter at Finchley Road, and again when you leave at Earls Court. The system doesn't know if you have travelled through Zone 1 or via Rayners Lane, unless it checks journey times.... can it do that? Any RCI who caught you in Zone 1 wouldn't be able to bust you, since you could legitimately be planning to exit at a Zone 1 station and be debited for the extension. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , John Rowland
writes If you are out of your zone with a swiped Oyster, then you are obviously intending to swipe on exit and be charged for the extension... if you don't swipe on exit, you will be charged the maximum possible extension (to zone 6D or whatever). Therefore the system can not generally be defrauded in the way I suggested. But only if you attempt to come back through Zone 6. You might legitimately argue that you got to that station by some other means and just buy the extension to return. Otherwise, all that would happen would be that your Oyster will be expecting to exit when used next in your valid zone so won't open an entry gate. There'd be a 02 on the POD and unless we checked the ticket with an HHC (which takes time) would have to assume that the Oyster had not been validated at the end of the journey... it happens all the time. But a possible fraud does spring to mind. You have a 2 to 6 Travelcard in your Oyster. You swipe when you enter at Finchley Road, and again when you leave at Earls Court. The system doesn't know if you have travelled through Zone 1 or via Rayners Lane, unless it checks journey times.... can it do that? Any RCI who caught you in Zone 1 wouldn't be able to bust you, since you could legitimately be planning to exit at a Zone 1 station and be debited for the extension. Read my earlier post; it would all depend on whether the Oyster contained Pre Pay as well a season ticket. -- Kat "bears, said the taxi driver, is sixpence extra, sticky bears is ninepence" |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:38:44 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote: But a possible fraud does spring to mind. You have a 2 to 6 Travelcard in your Oyster. You swipe when you enter at Finchley Road, and again when you leave at Earls Court. The system doesn't know if you have travelled through Zone 1 or via Rayners Lane, unless it checks journey times.... can it do that? Any RCI who caught you in Zone 1 wouldn't be able to bust you, since you could legitimately be planning to exit at a Zone 1 station and be debited for the extension. I'd would have thought that the system should pick that up: a) Your last validation point was at Finchley Road. b) You could make the journey via Rayner's Lane and be ok - but it looks unlikely! c) Gates raise 'possible dumbell' flag - SA asks where ypu've been.... No real change from now.... Rob. -- rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 03:32:15 +0000, Stuart
wrote: BTW hos do Oysters work on National Rail services? If it's a pre-pay, it's only valid on National Rail services to/from Underground interchange stations. This is where things get stupid and will lead to absurd price anomalies, especially on weekends and public holidays. Weekend/public holiday single ticket example: Walthamstow Central Z3 - Underground Z1 via NR and/or Tube: £1.80 St James Street Z3 - Zone 1 Underground Z1 via NR and Tube: £2.50 Hackney Downs Z2 - Zone 1 Underground Z1 via NR and Tube: £2.20 So come Oyster pre-pay, using singles travelling from a Zone 3 station can be CHEAPER than travelling from a Zone 2 station! Oyster has further reduced inter-availability of tickets and price matching. Those using National Rail services and single tickets get a fare rise and miss the opportunity for cheaper weekend and public holiday single tickets. Not a good time to only be near to National Rail IMHO. Cheers, Jason. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:38:44 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote: Even if your Oyster contains a valid travelcard for the whole journey, you are still required to swipe at the beginning and end of your journey. No you aren't. Not if the gates are open/ungated, etc. Only pre-pay users must present their cards. If an RCI catches you halfway through your journey with an unswiped Oyster containing a valid travelcard for the zone in which you currently are, this looks suspicious but you would presumably just be warned to swipe in future. Why - you are not required to? If the RCI catches you are out of your valid zone with an unswiped oyster, you can then be busted. Why? See above. If you are out of your zone with a swiped Oyster, then you are obviously intending to swipe on exit and be charged for the extension... if you don't swipe on exit, you will be charged the maximum possible extension (to zone 6D or whatever). How will you be charged if you don't swipe? It doesn't know where you are - you could have got out at a open station within your zone. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , K
writes On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:38:44 -0000, "John Rowland" wrote: Even if your Oyster contains a valid travelcard for the whole journey, you are still required to swipe at the beginning and end of your journey. No you aren't. Not if the gates are open/ungated, etc. Only pre-pay users must present their cards. If an RCI catches you halfway through your journey with an unswiped Oyster containing a valid travelcard for the zone in which you currently are, this looks suspicious but you would presumably just be warned to swipe in future. Why - you are not required to? If the RCI catches you are out of your valid zone with an unswiped oyster, you can then be busted. Why? See above. If you are out of your zone with a swiped Oyster, then you are obviously intending to swipe on exit and be charged for the extension... if you don't swipe on exit, you will be charged the maximum possible extension (to zone 6D or whatever). How will you be charged if you don't swipe? It doesn't know where you are - you could have got out at a open station within your zone. This is turning into a great thread, one that I can thoroughly enjoy for the time being as I am relatively unaffected by it, as I purchase my zones 1-6 (non-Oyster) travel card from a WAGN NR station well outside of zone 6. This has all the makings of a typical LUL sponsored Brian Rix farce. (And if you've never heard of Brian Rix then ask your mum or dad!) :-) Bob. (Who admits that he doesn't work for London Underground!) -- Bob Adams |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
"Kat" wrote in message
... In message , Richard Adamfi writes On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:47:28 +0000, Kat wrote: But this is no different from the magnetic ticket system. CofC state that you must have a ticket to cover the whole of the journey you are making. A RCI finding no Pre Pay balance on an Oyster could either issue a paper extension ticket or a £10.00 Penalty Fare. I think the argument here is that you would always keep a Pre Pay balance, just in case you had to validate. And if you never intend to add Pre Pay to your Oyster, always make sure you buy an extension. From what I've gathered, the £10.00 Penalty Fare is going to be very strictly enforced now. So as long as I have pre-pay on my Oystercard (zones 2 & 3 only), I don't need to buy an extension ticket when I travel into Zone 1 - it should take it £1.60 extra off my pre-pay? Adrian |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Adrian
writes So as long as I have pre-pay on my Oystercard (zones 2 & 3 only), I don't need to buy an extension ticket when I travel into Zone 1 - it should take it £1.60 extra off my pre-pay? That's correct. But if you go out of zone 2 - 3 and have no Pre Pay, you won't be able to use your Oyster in your valid zones until the debit has been repaid. BTW, people who are still buying magnetic extension tickets (which of course don't register on the Oyster) need to take ticket and Oyster to the ticket window to have it sorted out on the TOM (Ticket Office Machine) I advise people to keep some Pre Pay on their period ticket Oysters. The number of times people have told me that they haven't travelled out of zone until I read them their travel history is surprising. I don't believe they're trying to pull a fast one; most genuinely don't realise it. -- Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:25:49 +0000, Kat
wrote: BTW, people who are still buying magnetic extension tickets (which of course don't register on the Oyster) need to take ticket and Oyster to the ticket window to have it sorted out on the TOM (Ticket Office Machine) I advise people to keep some Pre Pay on their period ticket Oysters. The number of times people have told me that they haven't travelled out of zone until I read them their travel history is surprising. I don't believe they're trying to pull a fast one; most genuinely don't realise it. That's interesting. At present I go out of zone around once a week: so far I've just bought paper extension tickets and used them exactly as I would have done with a magnetic season ticket: I touch the Oyster at the in-zone station, and put the extension in the gate at the out-of-zone station. I had in mind to use pre-pay for this eventually, but wasn't planning to change over yet. The really nice thing would be if Oyster could calculate, when the season expires, whether it would have been cheaper simply to buy an extra zone for the season, and charge me the cost of that extra zone... If I *do* have both a season and pre-pay on my card, will I then need to touch my Oyster to one of the readers when I go through Finsbury Park, which *is* covered by my season Martin |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Martin Rich
writes On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:25:49 +0000, Kat wrote: BTW, people who are still buying magnetic extension tickets (which of course don't register on the Oyster) need to take ticket and Oyster to the ticket window to have it sorted out on the TOM (Ticket Office Machine) I advise people to keep some Pre Pay on their period ticket Oysters. The number of times people have told me that they haven't travelled out of zone until I read them their travel history is surprising. I don't believe they're trying to pull a fast one; most genuinely don't realise it. That's interesting. At present I go out of zone around once a week: so far I've just bought paper extension tickets and used them exactly as I would have done with a magnetic season ticket: I touch the Oyster at the in-zone station, and put the extension in the gate at the out-of-zone station. Have you actually done this yet or was that in the days before Pre Pay was enabled? It won't work now because an extension ticket cannot open the gate for you and your Oyster will be recording an unresolved journey. You should be using Pre Pay now. I had in mind to use pre-pay for this eventually, but wasn't planning to change over yet. When the extension fare is taken from your Pre Pay, it will be at the 2003 price and not the new price, so it's worth doing sooner than later (apart from the trouble at the gate of having your Oyster read and then maybe having to queue to get the thing sorted out.) The really nice thing would be if Oyster could calculate, when the season expires, whether it would have been cheaper simply to buy an extra zone for the season, and charge me the cost of that extra zone... 2 - 6 Annual ticket is £956.00 1 - 6 Annual ticket is £1068.00 The difference would buy you 70x Zone 1 extension tickets. If you are, for example, going into and out of Zone 1 once a week, that's 35 x 2 uses so it would be sensible to include Zone 1 on your annual card. If your season ticket has two zones not including Zone 1 and you go to another zone, NOT Zone 1 then Pre pay would be cheaper. (She said, hoping she got the arithmetic right) You need to sit down with a Fares and Tickets booklet and work out what's best for you... If I *do* have both a season and pre-pay on my card, will I then need to touch my Oyster to one of the readers when I go through Finsbury Park, which *is* covered by my season No matter what sort of ticket or Pre Pay alone you have on Oyster, it's essential to use the yellow reader at both the start and finish of your journey. -- Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:39:20 +0000, Kat
wrote: In message , Martin Rich writes That's interesting. At present I go out of zone around once a week: so far I've just bought paper extension tickets and used them exactly as I would have done with a magnetic season ticket: I touch the Oyster at the in-zone station, and put the extension in the gate at the out-of-zone station. Have you actually done this yet or was that in the days before Pre Pay was enabled? It won't work now because an extension ticket cannot open the gate for you and your Oyster will be recording an unresolved journey. You should be using Pre Pay now. You're right, of course. I haven't (yet) done this since pre-pay started. I had in mind to use pre-pay for this eventually, but wasn't planning to change over yet. When the extension fare is taken from your Pre Pay, it will be at the 2003 price and not the new price, so it's worth doing sooner than later (apart from the trouble at the gate of having your Oyster read and then maybe having to queue to get the thing sorted out.) Fair point The really nice thing would be if Oyster could calculate, when the season expires, whether it would have been cheaper simply to buy an extra zone for the season, and charge me the cost of that extra zone... 2 - 6 Annual ticket is £956.00 1 - 6 Annual ticket is £1068.00 The difference would buy you 70x Zone 1 extension tickets. If you are, for example, going into and out of Zone 1 once a week, that's 35 x 2 uses so it would be sensible to include Zone 1 on your annual card. If your season ticket has two zones not including Zone 1 and you go to another zone, NOT Zone 1 then Pre pay would be cheaper. (She said, hoping she got the arithmetic right) You need to sit down with a Fares and Tickets booklet and work out what's best for you... My card is for zone 1-2 and the regular out-of-zone journeys are into zone 3. I used to have a zone1-3 card, until I did sit down with the fares booklet and worked out that usually zone 1-2 + extensions when necessary would be cheaper. On 2003 prices and for an odd-period season (my current one is for a bit over 3 months and started in late December) zone 1-2 plus extensions is better value if I make 6 or fewer return underground trips into zone 3 per month. If I *do* have both a season and pre-pay on my card, will I then need to touch my Oyster to one of the readers when I go through Finsbury Park, which *is* covered by my season No matter what sort of ticket or Pre Pay alone you have on Oyster, it's essential to use the yellow reader at both the start and finish of your journey. So far, I haven't been doing this at Finsbury Park, and I've done 5 journeys starting or finishing at Finsbury Park so far this week. The posters at Finsbury Park imply that it's only essential to use the readers there if you're on pre-pay. That's why I remain slightly puzzled by the problems with using a paper extension ticket. If I buy a paper extension, my Oyster record looks just the same whether I've travelled from a zone 1 station to a zone 3 station, and presented my extension at the zone3 station, or I've travelled from zone 1 to Finsbury Park and just walked out of the station at Finsbury Park. (As it happens I usually travel to or from Finsbury Park by W3 or W7 bus, so it should be easy enough to deduce where I've been from the complete record, but I don't think the system is that clever). At the other end, if the paper extension won't open the gate, what would I do if I still had a paper season ticket? The extension ticket and the gate at the zone 3 station don't know what type of Travelcard I have. Sorry. I've rambled on for much too long about one obscure case. Kat: thank you very much for responding to my previous post, and I do appreciate what you and other LU insiders have brought to the various Oyster threads Martin |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:50:24 +0000, Martin Rich
wrote: On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:39:20 +0000, Kat wrote: [snip] No matter what sort of ticket or Pre Pay alone you have on Oyster, it's essential to use the yellow reader at both the start and finish of your journey. So far, I haven't been doing this at Finsbury Park, and I've done 5 journeys starting or finishing at Finsbury Park so far this week. The posters at Finsbury Park imply that it's only essential to use the readers there if you're on pre-pay. That's why I remain slightly puzzled by the problems with using a paper extension ticket. If I buy a paper extension, my Oyster record looks just the same whether I've travelled from a zone 1 station to a zone 3 station, and presented my extension at the zone3 station, or I've travelled from zone 1 to Finsbury Park and just walked out of the station at Finsbury Park. (As it happens I usually travel to or from Finsbury Park by W3 or W7 bus, so it should be easy enough to deduce where I've been from the complete record, but I don't think the system is that clever). At the other end, if the paper extension won't open the gate, what would I do if I still had a paper season ticket? The extension ticket and the gate at the zone 3 station don't know what type of Travelcard I have. The issue at the heart of this is whether you *have* to validate solely for Pre-Pay or part Pre-Pay trips compared to a Travelcard only trip. As I think I (and others) have posted before it is essential to record entry and exit points for any trip that involves pre-pay. The subtleties relating to extension tickets being paid from the pre-pay part of an Oyster card have not been well communicated IMO. Your experience of using Finsbury Park is different to other whole gated trips simply because you have not validated your travelcard part of your Oyster card (you don't have to) which is why a trip record would show and entry in Zone 1 and then presumably an exit back at Zone 1 because there is no validation at the Zone 3 station to which you have travelled on a magnetic ticket. The system has to be tolerant of such cases because if it wasn't thousands of people who enter the LUL system via open interchanges (e.g. Highbury cross platform from WAGN) would have their cards rejected. This would not be a sensible policy. Extension tickets hardly ever open ticket gates at the destination because they are for a lower fare than the trip you have taken from the station where you bought it. Therefore a gate will always reject them on exit as "under fare". If you bought an extension (for your return leg) at your Zone 3 station to add to your Z12 T/Card then it would work because the ticket was bought where the gate is and is for a valid fare to some other station from Z3. There is a clear need to provide a sensible explanation as to a) how travelling out of Zone with an Oyster card works. b) what passengers should do with their cards. c) what the ramifications are if for whatever reason they are unable / unwilling to comply with the rules. I was most surprised when Kat posted that someone with zero Pre-Pay balance had been deducted into negative value because they presented their Travelcard Oyster out of zone. While I understand why the system does it I think it is barmy to put passengers in a position of needing to do something with their cards when there is nothing to explain to them the way to avoid it happening. I've looked at the Oyster website and I was not terribly impressed with the FAQ. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Paul Corfield
writes There is a clear need to provide a sensible explanation as to a) how travelling out of Zone with an Oyster card works. b) what passengers should do with their cards. c) what the ramifications are if for whatever reason they are unable / unwilling to comply with the rules. I was most surprised when Kat posted that someone with zero Pre-Pay balance had been deducted into negative value because they presented their Travelcard Oyster out of zone. While I understand why the system does it I think it is barmy to put passengers in a position of needing to do something with their cards when there is nothing to explain to them the way to avoid it happening. I've looked at the Oyster website and I was not terribly impressed with the FAQ. There is a fairly clear explanation about travelling out of zone with an Oyster season ticket in a leaflet which all stations should have. I make a point of handing it to passengers who've been caught out this way in addition to explaining how the system works. I cannot see how it could have been made to work in any other way though; magnetic tickets just can't *talk* to Oyster cards. I have to say, it's all very time consuming though.. -- Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Martin Rich
writes So far, I haven't been doing this at Finsbury Park, and I've done 5 journeys starting or finishing at Finsbury Park so far this week. The posters at Finsbury Park imply that it's only essential to use the readers there if you're on pre-pay. That's why I remain slightly puzzled by the problems with using a paper extension ticket. If I buy a paper extension, my Oyster record looks just the same whether I've travelled from a zone 1 station to a zone 3 station, and presented my extension at the zone3 station, or I've travelled from zone 1 to Finsbury Park and just walked out of the station at Finsbury Park. (As it happens I usually travel to or from Finsbury Park by W3 or W7 bus, so it should be easy enough to deduce where I've been from the complete record, but I don't think the system is that clever). I have Finsbury Park listed as a Continuation Exit. This means, I think, that if you validate there and carry on your journey, you'll only be charged for one journey and not two because the system *knows* At the other end, if the paper extension won't open the gate, what would I do if I still had a paper season ticket? The extension ticket and the gate at the zone 3 station don't know what type of Travelcard I have. But someone would have to look at your extension ticket and your magnetic season ticket to allow you into the system in Zone 1; at the other end of your journey, your season ticket would let you out. But supposing you had Zone 1 - 2 and wanted to travel from 3 to 3 across Zones 1/2. You would then need to show the extension at the start and finish of your journey to be let in and out. An Oyster with Pre Pay simplifies all this by doing the whole thing automatically. Sorry. I've rambled on for much too long about one obscure case. No problem; it's interesting and I'm learning a lot. We are having a lot of problems with people (with Zones 2/3) using the NR service from say Highbury and Islington to Mile End via Stratford. Their Oysters are assuming that they've come across Zone 1 via OXO and so charging them £1.60. There should be validators on the NR platforms at Stratford, if so, I'll advise people to make sure they validate there before getting on the Central Line and hopefully that will solve the problem. -- Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
Kat wrote in
: We are having a lot of problems with people (with Zones 2/3) using the NR service from say Highbury and Islington to Mile End via Stratford. Their Oysters are assuming that they've come across Zone 1 via OXO and so charging them £1.60. There should be validators on the NR platforms at Stratford, if so, I'll advise people to make sure they validate there before getting on the Central Line and hopefully that will solve the problem. How is this supposed to work? How will the validators at Stratford tell between a Highbury and Islington to Stratford via OXO onward via National Rail and a Highbury and Islington to (say) Leyton via NLL? Or does the user need to validate both "in" (through the barrier) then "out" (on the platform, I assume one has been provided) at Highbury, "in" at Stratford and then "out" at Mile End? What a performance! David |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:53:45 +0000, Kat
wrote: [travelling out of zone] There is a fairly clear explanation about travelling out of zone with an Oyster season ticket in a leaflet which all stations should have. I make a point of handing it to passengers who've been caught out this way in addition to explaining how the system works. Ah - I need to get some leaflets then. I cannot see how it could have been made to work in any other way though; magnetic tickets just can't *talk* to Oyster cards. Well yes I understand why it works that way and it is still early days but I would have thought it was an advantage that should be sold far more loudly to the public to encourage both take up of cards and also understanding of how to use validators on open interchanges. I'm not very impressed with the minimalist signing. I have to say, it's all very time consuming though.. regrettably it was always going to be the case that some transactions (e.g. incomplete journeys) would be rather involved. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Paul Corfield
writes On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:53:45 +0000, Kat wrote: I have to say, it's all very time consuming though.. regrettably it was always going to be the case that some transactions (e.g. incomplete journeys) would be rather involved. I really meant that it's time consuming to go through the explanation as well as do all the other things we need to do. The whole Pre Pay Oyster concept is complicated to explain to people and often needs to be done on a one to one basis rather than just put leaflets in a rack and hope that people will read them. I think it's up to us on the gateline to do it though, SAMFs just don't have the time. -- Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Martin Rich
writes In message , Martin Rich writes That's interesting. At present I go out of zone around once a week: so far I've just bought paper extension tickets and used them exactly as I would have done with a magnetic season ticket: I touch the Oyster at the in-zone station, and put the extension in the gate at the out-of-zone station. Have you actually done this yet or was that in the days before Pre Pay was enabled? It won't work now because an extension ticket cannot open the gate for you and your Oyster will be recording an unresolved journey. You should be using Pre Pay now. You're right, of course. I haven't (yet) done this since pre-pay started. Except of course, that Finsbury Park doesn't have any gates anyway. -- Bob Adams (email to ) |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
The clock on the validator at Kings Cross WAGN platforms 9-11 is 4
houra fast.. so if you try to use your prepay between Finsbury Park amd Kings Cross on WAGN it will create two unresolved journeys, whivh charged mr £10.20,, No ticket office staff seem to know how to sort this out.... |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:40:17 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: I was most surprised when Kat posted that someone with zero Pre-Pay balance had been deducted into negative value because they presented their Travelcard Oyster out of zone. While I understand why the system does it I think it is barmy to put passengers in a position of needing to do something with their cards when there is nothing to explain to them the way to avoid it happening. I've looked at the Oyster website and I was not terribly impressed with the FAQ. They have posters at Canary Wharf explaining this. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
Bob Adams wrote: When will WAGN Gripper's be able to read Oysters? The ones on the Chingford-Liverpool Street line had readers about a month ago at least. (Though I guess they may not *all* have them...) |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:39:12 +0000, Bob Adams
wrote: So what was "the bit with it" ? The Record Card issued with the Oyster when last topped up. When will WAGN Gripper's be able to read Oysters? When they have hand held checkers. Why should I be willing to pay a three pound deposit for an Oyster when it is going to save LUL a fortune? (But not it seems yet, WAGN.) Because pre-pay will save you money on singles. And if you want a 7 day travelcard on Oyster you'll be able to renew over the internet or at a ticket machine.... Rob. -- rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message 0, David
Jackman writes How is this supposed to work? How will the validators at Stratford tell between a Highbury and Islington to Stratford via OXO onward via National Rail and a Highbury and Islington to (say) Leyton via NLL? Or does the user need to validate both "in" (through the barrier) then "out" (on the platform, I assume one has been provided) at Highbury, "in" at Stratford and then "out" at Mile End? What a performance! (1) This is how I think it may be working. Start journey on Victoria Line at Highbury and Islington (1st touch reader at entry) Change to Central Line at Oxford Circus (no reader) Leave at Stratford (2nd touch of reader at exit) (2) Start journey at Highbury and Islington (1st touch at entry) leave NR at Stratford ( use 2nd reader at continuation exit or possibly Jubilee Line UTS gates) Join Central Line. Leave at Leyton (3rd touch of reader at exit) I don't know Stratford (except the upper level Central/DLR/NR) part well enough to know if you have to go through the Jubilee line gates to leave the lower NR part of the station or if there are validators on the lower NR platforms. Also, I don't know Highbury and Islington at all. Maybe someone who uses these stations can tell me. -- Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In article ,
Kat wrote: In message 0, David Jackman writes I don't know Stratford (except the upper level Central/DLR/NR) part well enough to know if you have to go through the Jubilee line gates to leave the lower NR part of the station You don't. or if there are validators on the lower NR platforms. I /think/ there are, but I don't use the NLL often. Also, I don't know Highbury and Islington at all. Maybe someone who uses these stations can tell me. -- You dont have to be illiterate to use the Internet, but it help's. |
Oyster at Finsbury Park
In message , Robert Woolley
writes On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:39:12 +0000, Bob Adams wrote: So what was "the bit with it" ? The Record Card issued with the Oyster when last topped up. Is it compulsory to have it with you? And what if you renew via the internet? When will WAGN Gripper's be able to read Oysters? When they have hand held checkers. Get away! Why should I be willing to pay a three pound deposit for an Oyster when it is going to save LUL a fortune? (But not it seems yet, WAGN.) Because pre-pay will save you money on singles. And if you want a 7 day travelcard on Oyster you'll be able to renew over the internet or at a ticket machine.... Still doesn't answer why LUL/TfL are charging a deposit on the card (or why passengers are willing to pay it.) -- Bob Adams (email to ) |
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