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Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"John Rowland" wrote in message ... Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. Ah yes, a Barnes dance - named after NYC Traffic Commisioner Barnes, who was Commissioner during the 1940s. The Burnt Oak one was the second in Britain, I gather. There was an earlier one in Sussex somewhere. Half a century for ideas to cross the Atlantic (in either direction) is about par for the course, I suppose. The Burnt Oak barnes dance stated off as part of DfT (as it then wasn't) research project S205Q. "Junction Improvements for Vulnerable Road Users", project management by Faber Maunsell in St. Albans. Mysteriously there has never been a report of the research, and none is planned, although the research should long since have been completed. The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. Jeremy Parker |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Jeremy Parker" wrote in message The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. This is used in residential areas in Holland, there is a kerb at the outer edge of the round-about, and then outside this is the bike lane, and the bikes have right of way over approaching vehicles on the roads. It's caught me out a few times, as a driver, but seems to work once you get used to it. -- r |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:12:05 -0000, "Jeremy Parker"
wrote: "John Rowland" wrote in message ... Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. Ah yes, a Barnes dance - named after NYC Traffic Commisioner Barnes, who was Commissioner during the 1940s. The Burnt Oak one was the second in Britain, I gather. There was an earlier one in Sussex somewhere. Half a century for ideas to cross the Atlantic (in either direction) is about par for the course, I suppose. The Burnt Oak barnes dance stated off as part of DfT (as it then wasn't) research project S205Q. "Junction Improvements for Vulnerable Road Users", project management by Faber Maunsell in St. Albans. Mysteriously there has never been a report of the research, and none is planned, although the research should long since have been completed. The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. There's one of those in one of the roundabouts in Sturry Road (Canterbury) near PC World. It's a standard roundabout, but with a cycle lane. Odd to look at, as no cyclists would ever go that way :) --Nick. -- http://www.blackstar.co.uk/scp/id/what - Want DVDs/Games? Fax: +44 (0) 7974 984182 --- icq: 9235201 --- Hayn on dal |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
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Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
Robert Woolley wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:40:35 -0000, "John Rowland" I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. Its not unique. TfL introduced a similar one in Wandsworth about 2 years ago.... From memory, there's one at the junction of Acton Lane and Winchester St., south of Acton High Street. Both roads are fairly narrow. It used to be possible to cross diagonally at the NE corner of Parliament Square, if you walked fast. Of course it was never marked - it's a long way. Don't know if it's still possible. Colin McKenzie |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
Richard Buttrey wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:47:35 -0000, "Paul Oter" wrote: "Aidan Stanger" wrote in message The big mystery is why so few crossings in London are marked like that. Space is such a constraint that most of London's signalled crossings use the Barnes Dance sequence UIVMM. I suspect the main constraint is that a diagonal crossing, being a greater distance, requires vehicle traffic to be stopped for longer than with an ordinary orthogonal crossing. So it's pedestrian convenience vs motorist convenience. PaulO An optimal phasing for a number of pedestrians would surely depend on where pedestrians are trying to get to, and the relative numbers wanting to make a simple orthogonal move and those wanting a diagonal move? If all pedestrians wanted to end up on a diagonally opposite corner, then one diagonal move as opposed to two orthogonal moves would result in a shorter overall crossing time and obviously a shorter stopping time for motorists. It becomes more complex when a group of pedestrians want to undertake both types of crossing. Clearly there's a break even point somewhere which minimises the sum total of all pedestrian crossing movement times. You would rarely, if ever, find a crossroads where all pedestrian desire-lines were diagonal. Even if the majority are there is nothing to be gained by preventing orthoganal crossing at the same time as diagonal, which seems to be what you are suggesting. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"umpston" wrote in message om... I am aware of examples where a diagonal crossing has been considered but rejected because this additional crossing time would result in unacceptable traffic queues. Obviously this means the (orthagonal) pedestrian crossing route is longer - but who cares about them! The planners would appear to have cared about pedestrians because the considered the diagonal option. There are places where having traffic queuing at one set of lights will back up to the point where it interferes with other junctions. Which could then spread and help no-one. All junction timings are a balancing act, sometimes pedestrians are prioritised, other times road traffic. I'd prefer traffic and pedestrian flows to be optimised rather than dogmatically choosing one over the other. Dave. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Jeremy Parker" typed
The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. Jeremy Parker There is a dreadful example of this in Burnt Oak barely 1/4 mile from the traffic lights at the othe end of Orange Hill Road :-( -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Dave Liney" wrote in message ...
"umpston" wrote in message om... I am aware of examples where a diagonal crossing has been considered but rejected because this additional crossing time would result in unacceptable traffic queues. Obviously this means the (orthagonal) pedestrian crossing route is longer - but who cares about them! The planners would appear to have cared about pedestrians because the considered the diagonal option. ..... and rejected it - in the case I was referring to There are places where having traffic queuing at one set of lights will back up to the point where it interferes with other junctions. Which could then spread and help no-one. All junction timings are a balancing act, sometimes pedestrians are prioritised, other times road traffic. I'd prefer traffic and pedestrian flows to be optimised rather than dogmatically choosing one over the other. I agree absolutely. Diagonal crossings are only likely to be feasible where either traffic is light enough or where the road is wide enough for multi-lane approaches long enough to reduce potential traffic queuing problems (generally the wider the approaches, the more vehicles will get through the junction in the same length of time). There is, of course, another trade-off here between the traffic queuing-time saved by having wider roads versus the additional time needed for pedestrians to cross them. Limited road-width is another reason why diagonal crossings are less likely to be found in this country. We tend to have narrower roads in our urban areas. |
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