wrote:

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 16:44:58 +0100
"Mizter T" wrote:
The extinction of the zones 2-6 (and 2-9) daily cap has perhaps had the

When did this happen?

At the January 2011 fares change - it happened along with the withdrawal of
the matching z2-6 and z2-9 Day Travelcards (and people did make some fuss at
the time).

The internal TfL blurb apparently said it was withdrawn in order to fund the
'evening (1600-1900) off-peak into zone 1' fare offer on the Tube (actually
applies to any journey at the TfL rate, but not the NR rate) - though this
doesn't seem to be promoted very well.

The withdrawal of the z2-6/9 caps & matching Day Travelcards does seem
somewhat at odds from Bozza who had made great play of saying he wouldn't be
a "zone 1 Mayor" (though I suppose one can argue that the evening off-peak
fare offer described above does benefit those from outer London who want to
come into the centre in the evening - though only if they can do so by Tube,
or on a rail line that charges Tube fares, i.e. swathes of south London
don't benefit).

"Mizter T" wrote:

The 'default' fare for Harrow & Wealdstone to Hackney Central is via
zone 1 - this can be seen by checking the TfL single fare finder
he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...inder/current/

Frankly that makes no sense.

Why would anyone make a journey involving two changes if they could
make one? It's not as if they are avoiding the (relatively) low
frequency NLL by doing so, they've always got to make some of the
journey on this line. Nor are the connections nice, the "wrong" way
connection at Oxford Circus is a longish walk as is the route from
the Vic to the ground level platforms at H&I (or am I confusing this
with FP?) And it can't be "quicker" this way. If it was, the default
route
from Willesden to Hackney would be via Z1, but it isn't.

Yes, I get where you're coming from.

Maybe instead of working on the basis of Bakerloo-Victoria-NLL, the
default fare is instead based on taking a fast train from H&W to
Euston, then Vic line to H&I, then NLL to Hackney? (Though yes, that
would inevitably entail passing through ticket gates in zone 1 twice
at Euston NR & LU.)

Indeed, whilst the NR journey planner suggests travelling via a
change at Willesden Jn and then the NLL for nearly all journeys, the
TfL Journey Planner alternately suggests that route and the fast
train to Euston route - and the latter is shown as being faster at
around 45 mins compared to 55 mins for the former.

Thinking aloud, I dare say that 'default fares' are generated by some
sort of routing algorithm, and it takes a bit of human intervention
to alter them (which hasn't happened here)? Given the need to pass
through gates in zone 1 if travelling via Euston (which would
inevitably mean a via-z1 fare being charged), I think it'd be fair
enough to change the default fare so as to assume the non-z1 route,
i.e. changing at Willesden Jn.

The way that I see it is that where there are two routes with different
prices, the default is the higher priced route, by touching your card onto a
pink validator you get switched onto the lower fare. Being realistic, if the
default was the cheaper route then how many people voluntarily admit to
having taken the higher-priced route.

As for Willesden Junction, IIRC the pink validator is half-way along the
(narrow) tunnel between the two groups of platforms, so anyone who would
benefit from using the pink validator there will naturally walk past it when
changing trains.

On Aug 24, 9:22*pm, "SteveL" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:
[...]
Maybe instead of working on the basis of Bakerloo-Victoria-NLL, the
default fare is instead based on taking a fast train from H&W to
Euston, then Vic line to H&I, then NLL to Hackney? (Though yes, that
would inevitably entail passing through ticket gates in zone 1 twice
at Euston NR & LU.)

Indeed, whilst the NR journey planner suggests travelling via a
change at Willesden Jn and then the NLL for nearly all journeys, the
TfL Journey Planner alternately suggests that route and the fast
train to Euston route - and the latter is shown as being faster at
around 45 mins compared to 55 mins for the former.

Thinking aloud, I dare say that 'default fares' are generated by some
sort of routing algorithm, and it takes a bit of human intervention
to alter them (which hasn't happened here)? Given the need to pass
through gates in zone 1 if travelling via Euston (which would
inevitably mean a via-z1 fare being charged), I think it'd be fair
enough to change the default fare so as to assume the non-z1 route,
i.e. changing at Willesden Jn.

The way that I see it is that where there are two routes with different
prices, the default is the higher priced route, by touching your card onto a
pink validator you get switched onto the lower fare. Being realistic, if the
default was the cheaper route then how many people voluntarily admit to
having taken the higher-priced route.

Understood - though if travelling via a fast train from H&W to Euston
then one doesn't really have a choice about whether to 'admit' going
via zone 1, as one is compelled to negotiate at least one gateline at
Euston LU (whether one has to negotiate another gateline at Euston NR
depends whether or not the train arrives in to one of the suburban
platforms - though regardless of where it arrives, a punter should
touch-out on exit at Euston NR anyway) - so the very act of choosing
the Euston route flags up the journey as via zone 1.

Of course that doesn't cover punters who travel via the Bakerloo line
to Oxford Circus, then the Vic line to H&I, then the NLL to Hackney
Central - but under normal situations that's really not a very logical
route these days, i.e. in the context of the much improved NLL service
(it's certainly not a route that any journey planner suggests).

However the shear number of origin/destination pairs in London likely
makes in-depth of pondering all the options for all potential journeys
unrealistic - and it'd be understandable if, for routes where two (or
more) fares could exist, there'd be some automatic presumption that
the cheaper fare would apply to those pax who used the pink Oyster
route validator at the relevant interchange (if provided).


As for Willesden Junction, IIRC the pink validator is half-way along the
(narrow) tunnel between the two groups of platforms, so anyone who would
benefit from using the pink validator there will naturally walk past it when
changing trains.

In article op.v0pso1n5yfeo2q@pc-prime, (andypurk) wrote:

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:25:56 +0100, yameste
wrote:

When you see its by the electric lines do you mean the DC lines. I
was walked from the first carriage of a southbound DC line train
to the NLL high level and I couldnt see one.
A few months ago I do remember seeing an oyster validator on the
northbound platform. Logically the oyster validator should be
before you enter the stairs frmo the DC lines to the NLL. This
makes it easier for everyone but I strongly suspect that they
sited these validators in suspicous locations because they want to
chop (eat) the money so that they can make lots of money !

There are two Oyster validators in the building which by the DC lines
footbridge at the southern end of the platforms. From this building
there is a passageway which leads to the high level North London
Line platforms. There used to also be at least one on the North
London line part of the station, but I don't recall if this has been
moved.

I was told I had to go most of the way to the DC lines platforms when I
asked where one was on the NLL Westbound platform. There is a staffed
enquiry kiosk there.

The building concerned is marked by the arrow in this link to Google
Maps:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.5...51.532201,-0.2
43689&spn=0.001195,0.002798&sll=51.532462,-0.244456&sspn=0.006295,0.00
6295&num=1&t=h&vpsrc=0&z=19

and there are always people validating when I go past.

That looks like where I hike to and back with my bike.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(SteveL) wrote:

As for Willesden Junction, IIRC the pink validator is half-way along
the (narrow) tunnel between the two groups of platforms, so anyone
who would benefit from using the pink validator there will naturally
walk past it when changing trains.

I don't think it is on the direct walking route. It's certainly miles off if
changing from a NLL to a WLL train.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote in message

In article ,
(SteveL) wrote:

As for Willesden Junction, IIRC the pink validator is half-way along
the (narrow) tunnel between the two groups of platforms, so anyone
who would benefit from using the pink validator there will naturally
walk past it when changing trains.

I don't think it is on the direct walking route. It's certainly miles
off if changing from a NLL to a WLL train.

I certainly missed it the last time I needed it.

"SteveL" wrote in message
o.uk...

As for Willesden Junction, IIRC the pink validator is half-way along the
(narrow) tunnel between the two groups of platforms, so anyone who would
benefit from using the pink validator there will naturally walk past it
when changing trains.

Isn't there a second route nowadays from the north end of the footbridge (ie
turning left at the top of the P1/2/3 stairs) to the eastern end of the high
level platforms - not a lot of use if there is no pink validator in that
direction...

Paul S

On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:53:12 +0100, Paul Scott
wrote:

"SteveL" wrote in message
o.uk...

As for Willesden Junction, IIRC the pink validator is half-way along
the (narrow) tunnel between the two groups of platforms, so anyone who
would benefit from using the pink validator there will naturally walk
past it when changing trains.

Isn't there a second route nowadays from the north end of the footbridge
(ie turning left at the top of the P1/2/3 stairs) to the eastern end of
the high level platforms - not a lot of use if there is no pink
validator in that direction...


Yes there is. I've only used it once and can't recall if there was an
Oyster validator on that route. If there isn't, then there should be.


--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

In article op.v0rqfphcyfeo2q@pc-prime, (andypurk) wrote:

On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:53:12 +0100, Paul Scott
wrote:

"SteveL" wrote in message
o.uk...

As for Willesden Junction, IIRC the pink validator is half-way along
the (narrow) tunnel between the two groups of platforms, so anyone who
would benefit from using the pink validator there will naturally walk
past it when changing trains.

Isn't there a second route nowadays from the north end of the
footbridge (ie turning left at the top of the P1/2/3 stairs) to
the eastern end of the high level platforms - not a lot of use if
there is no pink validator in that direction...

Yes there is. I've only used it once and can't recall if there was an
Oyster validator on that route. If there isn't, then there should be.

There should be one on the NLL platforms as people can change trains there.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote on 25 August 2011 20:04:59 ...
In articleop.v0rqfphcyfeo2q@pc-prime, (andypurk) wrote:

On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:53:12 +0100, Paul Scott
wrote:

wrote in message
o.uk...

As for Willesden Junction, IIRC the pink validator is half-way along
the (narrow) tunnel between the two groups of platforms, so anyone who
would benefit from using the pink validator there will naturally walk
past it when changing trains.

Isn't there a second route nowadays from the north end of the
footbridge (ie turning left at the top of the P1/2/3 stairs) to
the eastern end of the high level platforms - not a lot of use if
there is no pink validator in that direction...

Yes there is. I've only used it once and can't recall if there was an
Oyster validator on that route. If there isn't, then there should be.

There should be one on the NLL platforms as people can change trains there.

Are you thinking about journeys like Highbury & Islington to Clapham
Junction, if you get a Richmond train and have to change at WJ to a
WJ-CJ train? But you can do the whole journey on one train if you time
it right. What happens then? Do you get lumbered with a "via Zone 1" fare?
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)