Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

For example, I always thought that Bowes Park to Sloane Square would
be charged as a tube journey. It isn't. It's £4.10 peak, £3.20 off-
peak. Bounds Green to Sloane Square, which is essentially the same
journey (with the exception that I change to the Victoria Line at
Finsbury Square instead of at Highbury & Islington) is £2.90 peak,
£2.50 off-peak. Bowes Park is more convenient, but it's probably not
worth paying up to £1.20 more for the privilege.

There still needs to be a lot of clarification on these issues... most
people really haven't a clue, including often myself, as to how much a
journey is likely to cost me, whether my journey will be capped on my
Oyster, etc etc. When will it be simplified - or at least, an attempt
to bring the NR prices more in line with tube prices?

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

"Tristán White" wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

The only answer I can suggest is memory, having looked it up beforehand, I'm
afraid.


For example, I always thought that Bowes Park to Sloane Square would
be charged as a tube journey. It isn't. It's £4.10 peak, £3.20 off-
peak. Bounds Green to Sloane Square, which is essentially the same
journey (with the exception that I change to the Victoria Line at
Finsbury Square instead of at Highbury & Islington) is £2.90 peak,
£2.50 off-peak. Bowes Park is more convenient, but it's probably not
worth paying up to £1.20 more for the privilege.

I think you've clocked this, but just to be clear the fares from Bowes Park
to Sloane Square are TfL+NR 'through fares', as they involve an NR component
(at the NR-rate) and a TfL component (the Tube) - they're shown in the
second table, lower down on this page:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx

(Presumably you're changing at Finsbury Park not Finsbury Square... unless
you know something the rest of us don't! ;-)


There still needs to be a lot of clarification on these issues... most
people really haven't a clue, including often myself, as to how much a
journey is likely to cost me, whether my journey will be capped on my
Oyster, etc etc. When will it be simplified - or at least, an attempt
to bring the NR prices more in line with tube prices?


I think the basic issue here is that under the current structure of railway
fares regulation and franchising, the train companies have bugger all
incentive to opt-in to a universal pan-London tariff (i.e. regardless of
mode, whether Tube or NR or both etc), let alone push for it.

If there's to be a concerted push for such a thing, then I think it'd really
have to come from the Mayor and TfL. I can't help but imagine that TfL are
probably quite amenable to the idea - it would mean a loss of some control,
as the universal tariff would have to be determined by some sort of
co-operative process between TfL, the TOCs and the DfT (the latter would
have to amend the rail fare regulatory regime) - at the moment TfL-rate
fares are determined by TfL/the Mayor alone - but I reckon there'd be a
flipside to this loss of control in that a universal tariff would I think
also work to draw the NR network in London into a closer embrace with TfL.

However I reckon it would need the Mayor to actively push for and champion
the idea, and deal with both the TOCs and also the government (in the form
of the DfT) in order to make it happen. Bearing in mind just how long it
took for the TOCs to finally sign up to Oyster PAYG, and how seemingly
hands-off the DfT were in terms of encouraging/ pushing/ forcing them to do
so, I don't think anyone should start holding their breath. I wonder
whether, having fought and eventually that epic battle to finally get Oyster
PAYG accepted across NR in London, the game plan might be to wait a little
while before opening the next can of worms?

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

On Aug 31, 11:16*am, Tristán White
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

"David" wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán White
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those places
that the bus network extends to

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same astubes?
 

On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those places
that the bus network extends to

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch
into the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge.
Epsom itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London
ways in and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But
seeing as the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And
while we are in Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the
line to Horsham, so why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).

Are Zones 7-9 about funding - maybe Surrey doesn't chip in?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same astubes?
 

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:00:16 +0100, tim....
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
....
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán White
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to
use them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for
those places that the bus network extends to


Grays (including the whole of the Upminster route) is actually outside the
zones though (as is Watford Junction). Epsom Downs (and the rest of the
branch) is actually pretty close to the GL border and the Tattenham Corner
branch, especially Kingswood - Tadworth is much further out. I think both
of these routes got included as they are on branch lines with termini just
outside the GL boundary. Elstree is also only just outside the boundary. I
think the strangest of the exclusions is Dartford, as it is a natural
terminus for many of the Inner Suburban services and is so close to the GL
boundary.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

*
I think the strangest of the exclusions is Dartford, as it is a natural *
terminus for many of the Inner Suburban services and is so close to the GL *
boundary.

And for some wholly inexplicable reason, Dartford is a valid
destination with a London Freedom Pass (after 9:30 M/F) while (all?)
other out of zone destinations are not.

Peter

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 03:16:03AM -0700, Trist?n White wrote:

If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

You memorize a long list, or ...

not worth paying up to =A31.20 more for the privilege.

.... you stop caring about such little things.

There still needs to be a lot of clarification on these issues... most
people really haven't a clue, including often myself, as to how much a
journey is likely to cost me, whether my journey will be capped on my
Oyster, etc etc. When will it be simplified - or at least, an attempt
to bring the NR prices more in line with tube prices?

It doesn't need simplifying. Oyster is the best of all possible worlds.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

The voices said it's a good day to clean my weapons

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:41:33 +0100
David Cantrell wrote:
There still needs to be a lot of clarification on these issues... most
people really haven't a clue, including often myself, as to how much a
journey is likely to cost me, whether my journey will be capped on my
Oyster, etc etc. When will it be simplified - or at least, an attempt
to bring the NR prices more in line with tube prices?

It doesn't need simplifying. Oyster is the best of all possible worlds.

No it isn't. A one day paper travelcard that can be used anywhere within
the london area without having to worry about capping or being overcharged
or validity is the best of all worlds. Except when the price is put up to
extortionate levels to stop people buying them.

B2003

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to
use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those
places
that the bus network extends to

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge. Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).

Are Zones 7-9 about funding - maybe Surrey doesn't chip in?

Zones 7-9 were originally A-D, and solely concerned the Metropolitan line in
the NW extremities. The question of funding maybe largely academic, because
the Met has run that way for so long now. When the Bakerloo last ran beyond
the zones it ran into 'special fares apply' territory.

Whenever it was that zones A-D became 7-9, (introduction of LO maybe?) it
was decided that 7 and 8 would also be used for the DC lines as far as
Watford High St, but Watford Jn remained outside the zones. (Many people
misread the map and wrongly assume it is in zone 9.) Apparently the
software system uses 'zone W' but this is not advertised.

Zone 7 isn't used for the eastward extensions beyond zone 6 on 'c2c' ,
because the fares that apply are the National Rail fares already extant. I
believe this is 'zone G' in internal systems.

If the National Rail fares to somewhere like Epsom are significantly
different to zone 7, (I haven't bothered to check), then if PAYG is extended
I presume another special 'pseudo zone' would have to be set up...

Paul S

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to
use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those
places
that the bus network extends to

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge. Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).


I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

I know that Epsom trains go beyond, but it's still (IMHO) a natural place to
end Oyster as it's an interchange station and London buses go there, which
they don't to Tattenham Corner (any longer). After all, Ewell is outside of
GL, but Oyster goes there?

Are Zones 7-9 about funding - maybe Surrey doesn't chip in?

I don't see that it should need to. All that has to happen is that the
stations are put in whatever zone it is that keeps the fare the same as now.
Pre-Oyster the reason for not including stations outside of London in LT
ticketing was that there wasn't an appropriate fare, all fares were zonal
except for the special point to point fares on the Met. Now that zones have
been "created" for these Met stations I see no reason why they can't be used
to include other stations (and whilst they are at it they can fix some of
the anomalies that have historically paced stations in Zone 6 that really
should have been in 7 or 8!)

tim

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

"tim...." wrote in message
...

I don't see that it should need to. All that has to happen is that the
stations are put in whatever zone it is that keeps the fare the same as
now. Pre-Oyster the reason for not including stations outside of London in
LT ticketing was that there wasn't an appropriate fare, all fares were
zonal except for the special point to point fares on the Met. Now that
zones have been "created" for these Met stations I see no reason why they
can't be used to include other stations (and whilst they are at it they
can fix some of the anomalies that have historically paced stations in
Zone 6 that really should have been in 7 or 8!)

But if that was the simple solution that you believe, then why did they have
to bring in "zone G" for c2c? Presumably because National Rail fares
to/from outside zone 6 on that line do NOT fit the 7-9 fares...

Paul S

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...
"tim...." wrote in message
...

I don't see that it should need to. All that has to happen is that the
stations are put in whatever zone it is that keeps the fare the same as
now. Pre-Oyster the reason for not including stations outside of London
in LT ticketing was that there wasn't an appropriate fare, all fares were
zonal except for the special point to point fares on the Met. Now that
zones have been "created" for these Met stations I see no reason why they
can't be used to include other stations (and whilst they are at it they
can fix some of the anomalies that have historically paced stations in
Zone 6 that really should have been in 7 or 8!)

But if that was the simple solution that you believe, then why did they
have to bring in "zone G" for c2c? Presumably because National Rail fares
to/from outside zone 6 on that line do NOT fit the 7-9 fares...

Because Grays is a lot further outside of Zone 6 than Epsom is

tim

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same astubes?
 

On 01/09/2011 16:10, tim.... wrote:
"Arthur wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to
use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those
places
that the bus network extends to

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge. Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).


I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

An obvious difference is that Shepperton is SWT, while the others are
Southern - maybe Southern played decided to nice(r)?

Tattenham Corner is just about walking distance to Epsom Downs, could
there be risk of skewing journey patterns if one was Oyster and one wasn't?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

Arthur Figgis wrote:

On 01/09/2011 16:10, tim.... wrote:
"Arthur wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge. Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).


I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

An obvious difference is that Shepperton is SWT, while the others are
Southern - maybe Southern played decided to nice(r)?


Ewell West and Hampton Court are SWT

Tattenham Corner is just about walking distance to Epsom Downs, could
there be risk of skewing journey patterns if one was Oyster and one wasn't?

But why were the Ewells included in zone 6?

--
Mark

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same astubes?
 

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 19:59:53 +0100, Mark Bestley
wrote:

Arthur Figgis wrote:

On 01/09/2011 16:10, tim.... wrote:
"Arthur wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message

....
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally
no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a
"tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could
have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each
branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge..
Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London
ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But
seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we
are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to
Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).


I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were
included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty
big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what
about
Sheperton?

An obvious difference is that Shepperton is SWT, while the others are
Southern - maybe Southern played decided to nice(r)?


Ewell West and Hampton Court are SWT

But Hampton Court is only just over the river from being inside Greater
London (less than 200m walk from the station entrance) and the Palace is a
large tourist attraction, so it makes sense for this terminus to be
included. I think that it got moved into zone 6 a lot earlier than many of
the other boundary stations, it may even have been before privatisation.


Tattenham Corner is just about walking distance to Epsom Downs, could
there be risk of skewing journey patterns if one was Oyster and one
wasn't?

But why were the Ewells included in zone 6?


That's a good question.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:50:42AM +0000, d wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
It doesn't need simplifying. Oyster is the best of all possible worlds.
No it isn't.

Your sarcasm detector is faulty.

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

23.5 degrees of axial tilt is the reason for the season

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 13:17:58 +0100
David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:50:42AM +0000, d wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
It doesn't need simplifying. Oyster is the best of all possible worlds.
No it isn't.

Your sarcasm detector is faulty.

Yup. I've given it a good kick, hopefully that'll fix it :)

B2003

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 04:10:43PM +0100, tim.... wrote:

I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

It's not that they go just over the border, but that from those stations
you can only go into London.

--
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

There is no one true indentation style,
But if there were K&R would be Its Prophets.
Peace be upon Their Holy Beards.

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

David Cantrell wrote:

On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 04:10:43PM +0100, tim.... wrote:

I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

It's not that they go just over the border, but that from those stations
you can only go into London.

Not true for Ewell East and West - next station is Epsom also Upper
Warlingham.

I wonder if it is the stations are unmanned most of the day and the main
journeys are to London so Oyster forcing a touch in/out gets the NR TOC
more revenue?



--
Mark

Is there an easy way of knowing which stations charge same as tubes?
 

Arthur Figgis wrote:

An obvious difference is that Shepperton is SWT, while the others are
Southern - maybe Southern played decided to nice(r)?

Epsom is run by Southern, with SWT very much a tolerated visitor (in the mid
1990s it had the absurd situation that the SWT timetable was not available
at Epsom!).

Tattenham Corner is just about walking distance to Epsom Downs, could
there be risk of skewing journey patterns if one was Oyster and one
wasn't?

It's quite a distance and a good chunk of the direct walk is over grass and
squeezing round bushes and golf courses - it's hardly a pedestrian friendly
route.