If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

For example, I always thought that Bowes Park to Sloane Square would
be charged as a tube journey. It isn't. It's £4.10 peak, £3.20 off-
peak. Bounds Green to Sloane Square, which is essentially the same
journey (with the exception that I change to the Victoria Line at
Finsbury Square instead of at Highbury & Islington) is £2.90 peak,
£2.50 off-peak. Bowes Park is more convenient, but it's probably not
worth paying up to £1.20 more for the privilege.

There still needs to be a lot of clarification on these issues... most
people really haven't a clue, including often myself, as to how much a
journey is likely to cost me, whether my journey will be capped on my
Oyster, etc etc. When will it be simplified - or at least, an attempt
to bring the NR prices more in line with tube prices?

"Tristán White" wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

The only answer I can suggest is memory, having looked it up beforehand, I'm
afraid.


For example, I always thought that Bowes Park to Sloane Square would
be charged as a tube journey. It isn't. It's £4.10 peak, £3.20 off-
peak. Bounds Green to Sloane Square, which is essentially the same
journey (with the exception that I change to the Victoria Line at
Finsbury Square instead of at Highbury & Islington) is £2.90 peak,
£2.50 off-peak. Bowes Park is more convenient, but it's probably not
worth paying up to £1.20 more for the privilege.

I think you've clocked this, but just to be clear the fares from Bowes Park
to Sloane Square are TfL+NR 'through fares', as they involve an NR component
(at the NR-rate) and a TfL component (the Tube) - they're shown in the
second table, lower down on this page:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx

(Presumably you're changing at Finsbury Park not Finsbury Square... unless
you know something the rest of us don't! ;-)


There still needs to be a lot of clarification on these issues... most
people really haven't a clue, including often myself, as to how much a
journey is likely to cost me, whether my journey will be capped on my
Oyster, etc etc. When will it be simplified - or at least, an attempt
to bring the NR prices more in line with tube prices?


I think the basic issue here is that under the current structure of railway
fares regulation and franchising, the train companies have bugger all
incentive to opt-in to a universal pan-London tariff (i.e. regardless of
mode, whether Tube or NR or both etc), let alone push for it.

If there's to be a concerted push for such a thing, then I think it'd really
have to come from the Mayor and TfL. I can't help but imagine that TfL are
probably quite amenable to the idea - it would mean a loss of some control,
as the universal tariff would have to be determined by some sort of
co-operative process between TfL, the TOCs and the DfT (the latter would
have to amend the rail fare regulatory regime) - at the moment TfL-rate
fares are determined by TfL/the Mayor alone - but I reckon there'd be a
flipside to this loss of control in that a universal tariff would I think
also work to draw the NR network in London into a closer embrace with TfL.

However I reckon it would need the Mayor to actively push for and champion
the idea, and deal with both the TOCs and also the government (in the form
of the DfT) in order to make it happen. Bearing in mind just how long it
took for the TOCs to finally sign up to Oyster PAYG, and how seemingly
hands-off the DfT were in terms of encouraging/ pushing/ forcing them to do
so, I don't think anyone should start holding their breath. I wonder
whether, having fought and eventually that epic battle to finally get Oyster
PAYG accepted across NR in London, the game plan might be to wait a little
while before opening the next can of worms?

On Aug 31, 11:16*am, Tristán White
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

"David" wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán White
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those places
that the bus network extends to

On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those places
that the bus network extends to

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch
into the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge.
Epsom itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London
ways in and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But
seeing as the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And
while we are in Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the
line to Horsham, so why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).

Are Zones 7-9 about funding - maybe Surrey doesn't chip in?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:00:16 +0100, tim....
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
....
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán White
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to
use them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for
those places that the bus network extends to


Grays (including the whole of the Upminster route) is actually outside the
zones though (as is Watford Junction). Epsom Downs (and the rest of the
branch) is actually pretty close to the GL border and the Tattenham Corner
branch, especially Kingswood - Tadworth is much further out. I think both
of these routes got included as they are on branch lines with termini just
outside the GL boundary. Elstree is also only just outside the boundary. I
think the strangest of the exclusions is Dartford, as it is a natural
terminus for many of the Inner Suburban services and is so close to the GL
boundary.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

*
I think the strangest of the exclusions is Dartford, as it is a natural *
terminus for many of the Inner Suburban services and is so close to the GL *
boundary.

And for some wholly inexplicable reason, Dartford is a valid
destination with a London Freedom Pass (after 9:30 M/F) while (all?)
other out of zone destinations are not.

Peter

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 03:16:03AM -0700, Trist?n White wrote:

If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

You memorize a long list, or ...

not worth paying up to =A31.20 more for the privilege.

.... you stop caring about such little things.

There still needs to be a lot of clarification on these issues... most
people really haven't a clue, including often myself, as to how much a
journey is likely to cost me, whether my journey will be capped on my
Oyster, etc etc. When will it be simplified - or at least, an attempt
to bring the NR prices more in line with tube prices?

It doesn't need simplifying. Oyster is the best of all possible worlds.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

The voices said it's a good day to clean my weapons

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:41:33 +0100
David Cantrell wrote:
There still needs to be a lot of clarification on these issues... most
people really haven't a clue, including often myself, as to how much a
journey is likely to cost me, whether my journey will be capped on my
Oyster, etc etc. When will it be simplified - or at least, an attempt
to bring the NR prices more in line with tube prices?

It doesn't need simplifying. Oyster is the best of all possible worlds.

No it isn't. A one day paper travelcard that can be used anywhere within
the london area without having to worry about capping or being overcharged
or validity is the best of all worlds. Except when the price is put up to
extortionate levels to stop people buying them.

B2003

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to
use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those
places
that the bus network extends to

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge. Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).

Are Zones 7-9 about funding - maybe Surrey doesn't chip in?

Zones 7-9 were originally A-D, and solely concerned the Metropolitan line in
the NW extremities. The question of funding maybe largely academic, because
the Met has run that way for so long now. When the Bakerloo last ran beyond
the zones it ran into 'special fares apply' territory.

Whenever it was that zones A-D became 7-9, (introduction of LO maybe?) it
was decided that 7 and 8 would also be used for the DC lines as far as
Watford High St, but Watford Jn remained outside the zones. (Many people
misread the map and wrongly assume it is in zone 9.) Apparently the
software system uses 'zone W' but this is not advertised.

Zone 7 isn't used for the eastward extensions beyond zone 6 on 'c2c' ,
because the fares that apply are the National Rail fares already extant. I
believe this is 'zone G' in internal systems.

If the National Rail fares to somewhere like Epsom are significantly
different to zone 7, (I haven't bothered to check), then if PAYG is extended
I presume another special 'pseudo zone' would have to be set up...

Paul S