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On 26/12/2011 19:30, Analysis&Solutions wrote:
This is a bit late. Been been busy with other things... http://gothamist.com/2011/12/16/mta_...tions_to_k.php ...The new partitions took some time to get right. New York City Transit's assistant chief of bus training Wayne Galante tells NY1 that it took so long because, "there was no shield available that could resist being cut by a knife, was glare free and not too confining for drivers." But now they've found their Goldilocks glass the partitions—which come in three types and cost between $1,800 to $3,800 each— are getting installed bit by bit. Transit officials say 121 buses have them now, with 300 expected to have them by the end of the year. By March the MTA hopes to have them in 500 buses, especially on "high assault routes" in Brooklyn, the Bronx and Upper Manhattan. In addition the MTA has installed 207 bus cameras. 1,150 should be installed by next year... They've been in London for years, they have. But I don't know that they are made of any particular type of plastic. |
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On Dec 26, 3:17*pm, "
wrote: They've been in London for years, they have. But I don't know that they are made of any particular type of plastic.- I'm surprised London has that kind of crime--assaults on bus drivers. Are London buses exact fare? Until roughly 1970, bus drivers in major cities gave change so passengers didn't need to have the exact fare in cash. But holdups pushed transit carriers to go exact fare. |
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In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote: On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:43:18 -0800 (PST), wrote: Are London buses exact fare? No, though in London it is "buy before you board" in the central area. But most use Oyster anyway. Exact change policies are generally considered passenger unfriendly in the UK, and are practiced only by a minority of bus operators. Until roughly 1970, bus drivers in major cities gave change so passengers didn't need to have the exact fare in cash. But holdups pushed transit carriers to go exact fare. Not in the UK, where change being given is the norm. It still happens in the UK despite it helping to drive away all but regular passengers. West Midlands Travel has exact fare only using fare boxes and no fares information at bus stops. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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"Neil Williams" wrote in message .net... On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:43:18 -0800 (PST), wrote: Are London buses exact fare? No, though in London it is "buy before you board" in the central area. But most use Oyster anyway. Exact change policies are generally considered passenger unfriendly in the UK, and are practiced only by a minority of bus operators. As you say, it's a minority but there also seem to be regional variations. Like another poster in u.t.l I've encountered exact change policies in the West Midlands and also in Scotland. Until roughly 1970, bus drivers in major cities gave change so passengers didn't need to have the exact fare in cash. But holdups pushed transit carriers to go exact fare. Not in the UK, where change being given is the norm. From the late 1960s in London the 'Red Arrow' routes in the centre, and some busy routes elsewhere in London, adopted an exact change policy along with use of a flat fare, at a time when other routes charged fares that varied according to the distance that a passenger was travelling. So if you boarded a bus 200 (traditional London fare system) at Wimbledon station, you'd pay one fare if you were simply travelling the short hop to the top of Wimbledon Hill, a higher fare if you were continuing once the bus continued along Ridgway, and so on. But if you boarded a 501 (Red Arrow) at Waterloo, you'd pay a fixed amount irrespective of whether you were taking a short hop across Waterloo Bridge, or continuing to Holborn or beyond. However my recollection is that this was done to speed boarding, not because of concern over security for drivers. Martin |
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On Dec 26, 10:51*pm, danny burstein wrote:
In writes: Until roughly 1970, bus drivers in major cities gave change so passengers didn't need to have the exact fare in cash. *But holdups pushed transit carriers to go exact fare. methinks you mean "simplification and a speedup in boarding * * * * * * * * * pushed transit carriers to go exact fare" No, I meant to prevent holdups. They were a serious problem in the late 1960s as urban conditions decayed. Back in those days fares could be odd coin combinations, 15c in small towns, I think 20c in NYC at the time; plus there were transfer and zone fares in many places. While most passengers used exact change to save themselves time, plenty of people expected change, especially if a family was travelling. I don't know about NYC, but in Phila, initially the driver could punch a refund slip if a passenger overpaid. The slip could be cashed in at the local bus garages. Obviously punching up a slip took time and passengers arguing with the driver over change took time. It also put transit in a bad light. Charles Addams make a joke about it: a group of people were headed down to a ferryboat in a cave operated by a hooded person. On the edge of the boat was "exact fare required". |
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On Dec 26, 11:10*pm, Neil Williams wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:43:18 -0800 (PST), wrote: Are London buses exact fare? No, though in London it is "buy before you board" in the central area. *But most use Oyster anyway. So outside the central area the bus drivers will still make change in London and other English cities? |
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The partitions are made from baby meerkats' vitrous humour that has
been solidified using isinglass. Very expensive but strong as glass. |
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On 27/12/2011 04:10, Neil Williams wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:43:18 -0800 (PST), wrote: Are London buses exact fare? No, though in London it is "buy before you board" in the central area. But most use Oyster anyway. You can indeed pay your fare on London busses with cash, and drivers will indeed give change, providing they have it. You will pay the current full cash fare of £2.20, though, compared to £1.20 or £1.25 if you use Oyster prepay. Fare machines can be seen in central London, though they appear to be less and less. |
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On Dec 27, 12:38*pm, "
wrote: I don't know about NYC, but in Phila, initially the driver could punch a refund slip if a passenger overpaid. *The slip could be cashed in at the local bus garages. *Obviously punching up a slip took time and passengers arguing with the driver over change took time. Could they not have also used it as partial fare payment? No, they could only be redeemed. At some point after the cutover, the fare refund slips were discontinued. Apparently people accepted exact fare by that point and were used to it. Also, SEPTA resumed selling token-packets at a discount; and started selling passcards, so for regular riders, exact fare wasn't an issue. SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that. But unfortunately, in NYC and in Phila, bus drivers have been assaulted, even killed, by nutcases for oddball reasons, such as a dispute of a transfer or just because someone was agitated and wanted to stab another person. |
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On Dec 27, 8:55*am, "Martin Rich" wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message .net... On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:43:18 -0800 (PST), wrote: Are London buses exact fare? No, though in London it is "buy before you board" in the central area. But most use Oyster anyway. Exact change policies are generally considered passenger unfriendly in the UK, and are practiced only by a minority of bus operators. As you say, it's a minority but there also seem to be regional variations.. Like another poster in u.t.l I've encountered exact change policies in the West Midlands and also in Scotland. Until roughly 1970, bus drivers in major cities gave change so passengers didn't need to have the exact fare in cash. *But holdups pushed transit carriers to go exact fare. Not in the UK, where change being given is the norm. From the late 1960s in London the 'Red Arrow' routes in the centre, and some busy routes elsewhere in London, adopted an exact change policy along with use of a flat fare, at a time when other routes charged fares that varied according to the distance that a passenger was travelling. *So if you boarded a bus 200 (traditional London fare system) at Wimbledon station, you'd pay one fare if you were simply travelling the short hop to the top of Wimbledon Hill, a higher fare if you were continuing once the bus continued along Ridgway, and so on. *But if you boarded a 501 (Red Arrow) at Waterloo, you'd pay a fixed amount irrespective of whether you were taking a short hop across Waterloo Bridge, or continuing to Holborn or beyond. *However my recollection is that this was done to speed boarding, not because of concern over security for drivers. NJT, which runs the buses throughout the state, uses a zone fare system -- $1.50 for a short trip; a one-seat ride from in front of my house in Jersey City to the 40th St. Port Authority Bus Terminal is three zones (which is some non-even fare -- I haven't done it since the base fare went up from $1.25 a while back), exact change cityward, but to board in NYC, the signs say, you now _must_ stop at the ticket booth on the ground floor before proceeding to the gate. (I did that the couple of times I traveled that way -- it's really only convenient to the theater district; if you have to add a subway fare in the city, it's not economical -- the ticket booth clerks were very nasty -- but other people boarded with simply cash. The driver doesn't check receipts when one disembarks, though probably is supposed to.) Some long-distance runs, such as Journal Square in Jersey City all the way to Hackensack, are treated as local city runs, making regular stops along the streets in JC with regular city buses. I think a few commuter-bus-served routes leave from JSQ also that go down toward the Shore. (Though the latest model of city bus has pretty nice padded seats, and actual straps -- woven webbing like backpack straps -- rather than metal loops for standees to hold.) |
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:37:22 +0000, wrote:
On 27/12/2011 03:43, wrote: Are London buses exact fare? No, they are not. But many drivers will only be able to give change for a small amount, in my observation, such as for £5. If the driver is not able to give change, what is the procedure? Will the passenger have to overpay or will the driver issue an Unpaid Fare Notice? -- jhk |
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On 27/12/2011 18:36, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:37:22 +0000, wrote: On 27/12/2011 03:43, wrote: Are London buses exact fare? No, they are not. But many drivers will only be able to give change for a small amount, in my observation, such as for £5. If the driver is not able to give change, what is the procedure? Will the passenger have to overpay or will the driver issue an Unpaid Fare Notice? I actually just noticed a driver issuing an unpaid fare notice at White City on Monday, though I am not sure of the reason. In my experience, however, if the driver is not able to give change, then that is just tough luck. |
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In message , at 18:59:48 on Tue,
27 Dec 2011, " remarked: Are London buses exact fare? No, though in London it is "buy before you board" in the central area. But most use Oyster anyway. So outside the central area the bus drivers will still make change in London and other English cities? But bus drivers will also make change in central London. Yes, I have gotten change on the Isle of Wight and in Scotland on local busses. In Nottingham the City's own buses don't give change, but the various privately owned competitors do. -- Roland Perry |
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:57:03 +0000, wrote:
I actually just noticed a driver issuing an unpaid fare notice at White City on Monday, though I am not sure of the reason. In my experience, however, if the driver is not able to give change, then that is just tough luck. As in get off my bus? The Big Red Book advises on page 48: What if a passenger offers payment and you don¡¦t have enough change ¡E You could ask if another passenger can help with change, but you don¡¦t have to ¡E If another passenger can¡¦t help, let the passenger travel and issue an Unpaid Fare Notice (UFN) http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...%20version.pdf -- jhk |
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Do busses in Westchester County still accept dollar bills? As in the famous play Westchester Furioso? |
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:09:56 -0500, Bolwerk wrote:
On 12/27/2011 1:00 PM, wrote: SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that. Because it's time consuming and a pain in the ass. Dropping change in is easy and you can use dollar coins - though I suppose the downside to dollar coins is about the only place I can readily find them is in transit vending machines. I'm amazed you still use one dollar bills. Why haven't they been phased out? -- jhk |
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On 27/12/2011 22:20, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:09:56 -0500, Bolwerk wrote: On 12/27/2011 1:00 PM, wrote: SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that. Because it's time consuming and a pain in the ass. Dropping change in is easy and you can use dollar coins - though I suppose the downside to dollar coins is about the only place I can readily find them is in transit vending machines. I'm amazed you still use one dollar bills. Why haven't they been phased out? A number of reasons, I have read. One is the reluctance by the US public to accept them. Another is the fact that the unions representing workers who print dollars are very strong and they would not take so well to the the dollar note's elimination. Another one, so I have heard, is psychological. The symbol of the one-dollar bill itself represents one of the world's most powerful currencies. Take that away, and what have you got. It might be worth mentioning that they still have a one-pound note in Scotland, the Bailiwick of Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man, though I can't remember if they still have one in Northern Ireland. They are all part of the Sterling zone. |
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On 27/12/2011 20:00, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:57:03 +0000, wrote: I actually just noticed a driver issuing an unpaid fare notice at White City on Monday, though I am not sure of the reason. In my experience, however, if the driver is not able to give change, then that is just tough luck. As in get off my bus? No, it clearly wasn't for fare evasion of any sort. I believe that she had offered payment to ride, but the driver wasn't able to accept it for whatever reason. Thus, he wrote up the unpaid fare notice. Might be worth mentioning that the driver was sitting in his cab and it was also at a major hub when he did this. |
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:00:55 -0800 (PST), wrote:
SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that. The US could really, really do with $1, $2 and $5 coins for this sort of purpose. I genuinely do not understand why people are so resistant. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:00:52 +0100, Jarle H Knudsen
wrote: As in get off my bus? That would be a common approach outside London. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
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Neil Williams wrote:
The US could really, really do with $1, $2 and $5 coins for this sort of purpose. I genuinely do not understand why people are so resistant. Because the continued existence of the dollar bill is an article of faith? |
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Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
I'm amazed you still use one dollar bills. Why haven't they been phased out? Paper notes are still far more convenient to carry than coins and the US has far more vending machines and cash register drawers than most other countries. While many will accept dollar coins, the ones that do tend to be government owned (ie Post Office) or located in casinos. The far more ubiqutous soda and candy vending machines tend to take nickels, dime and quarters, and if you are really lucky, the have a working receiver for $1 bills. Replacing all those won't be cheap and the cost would fall on the machine owner while the benefit went to the government. I've lived in both kinds of countries and used both types of currencies. While you can make an argument that coins are cheaper over their lifetime, I'm glad the US is still using paper. |
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On 27/12/2011 22:57, Neil Williams wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:00:55 -0800 (PST), wrote: SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that. The US could really, really do with $1, $2 and $5 coins for this sort of purpose. I genuinely do not understand why people are so resistant. Neil They do have one-dollar coins and they and TVMs in New York City regularly dispense them as change. The interesting thing is that they have minted a few different series to ease use since the late 1970s, when the Susan B. Anthony dollar replaced the Eisenhower dollars, which were almost as big as a five-pound coin. |
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Neil Williams writes:
SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that. The US could really, really do with $1, $2 and $5 coins for this sort of purpose. I genuinely do not understand why people are so resistant. "If dollar bills were good enough for Jesus, they're good enough for me!" -Miles p.s. By random luck, I got a ¥100 paper note in a store a while back: a customer was trying to use it, and the store wouldn't take it (though they're technically still legal tender), so I bought off her for a ¥100 coin... :] -Miles -- Twice, adv. Once too often. |
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On 27/12/2011 23:05, Bruce wrote:
Neil Williams wrote: The US could really, really do with $1, $2 and $5 coins for this sort of purpose. I genuinely do not understand why people are so resistant. Because the continued existence of the dollar bill is an article of faith? Yeah, that's what I also noted. |
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On 27/12/2011 22:09, Bolwerk wrote:
On 12/27/2011 1:00 PM, wrote: On Dec 27, 12:38 pm, wrote: I don't know about NYC, but in Phila, initially the driver could punch a refund slip if a passenger overpaid. The slip could be cashed in at the local bus garages. Obviously punching up a slip took time and passengers arguing with the driver over change took time. Could they not have also used it as partial fare payment? No, they could only be redeemed. At some point after the cutover, the fare refund slips were discontinued. Apparently people accepted exact fare by that point and were used to it. Also, SEPTA resumed selling token-packets at a discount; and started selling passcards, so for regular riders, exact fare wasn't an issue. SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that. Because it's time consuming and a pain in the ass. Dropping change in is easy and you can use dollar coins - though I suppose the downside to dollar coins is about the only place I can readily find them is in transit vending machines. But I remember seeing electronic fareboxes in Westchester county that took dollar notes, even those in bad shape. And the older fareboxes certainly took them before they were replaced by the newer ones. |
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Robert Neville writes:
The far more ubiqutous soda and candy vending machines tend to take nickels, dime and quarters, and if you are really lucky, the have a working receiver for $1 bills. Replacing all those won't be cheap and the cost would fall on the machine owner while the benefit went to the government. I've also heard people say that the "vending machine lobby" is a major factor resisting currency change; WTF anybody pays attention to them, I dunno... -miles -- Absurdity, n. A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. |
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On 27/12/2011 23:21, Miles Bader wrote:
Neil writes: SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that. The US could really, really do with $1, $2 and $5 coins for this sort of purpose. I genuinely do not understand why people are so resistant. "If dollar bills were good enough for Jesus, they're good enough for me!" -Miles p.s. By random luck, I got a ¥100 paper note in a store a while back: a customer was trying to use it, and the store wouldn't take it (though they're technically still legal tender), so I bought off her for a ¥100 coin... :] -Miles I saw somebody on the Midland Metro try to pay their fare with a unimetallic two-pound coin. I offered to take it off her hands for the equivalent face value when the conductor wouldn't take it. I also ont one in change at Wimbledon station once. Admittedly, however, it took a bit of convincing for the ticket agent to give it to me as such. I also occasionally run into one of the pre-1997 50-pence coins. |
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On 27/12/2011 23:31, Miles Bader wrote:
Robert writes: The far more ubiqutous soda and candy vending machines tend to take nickels, dime and quarters, and if you are really lucky, the have a working receiver for $1 bills. Replacing all those won't be cheap and the cost would fall on the machine owner while the benefit went to the government. I've also heard people say that the "vending machine lobby" is a major factor resisting currency change; WTF anybody pays attention to them, I dunno... -miles Yes, I've also heard that. |
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On 27/12/2011 23:31, Miles Bader wrote:
Robert writes: The far more ubiqutous soda and candy vending machines tend to take nickels, dime and quarters, and if you are really lucky, the have a working receiver for $1 bills. Replacing all those won't be cheap and the cost would fall on the machine owner while the benefit went to the government. I've also heard people say that the "vending machine lobby" is a major factor resisting currency change; WTF anybody pays attention to them, I dunno... -miles I would have also thought the vending machine lobby that they would be happy to get rid of their dollar slots as it would mean less moving parts to be maintained and less jams. |
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