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Metal Thefts Soar ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/news/?q=metal%20thefts
==== Scrap metal raids: Police seize tonnes of rail cable The British Transport Police (BTP) regards metal theft second only to terrorism in its list of priorities http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16307310 Police have seized 14 tonnes of suspected stolen railway cable and made 45 arrests after searching around 160 scrap metal yards in a single day. The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) said the haul followed visits to 400 scrap metal recyclers in England and Wales on 14 December. The day of action aimed to tackle the "growing" crime of metal theft, thought to cost the economy £700m a year. Scotland Yard is launching a dedicated unit to target the thieves. The Waste and Metal Theft Taskforce is based in Bexley, south-east London, one of the boroughs most severely affected because of the high number of scrap metal yards. 'Unscrupulous' Meanwhile, a newly formed cross-ministerial group has also met several times to discuss the problem. It is clear that a law dating back to the 1960s is not sufficient to deal with an increasingly organised crime” Acpo said police across Britain had joined forces with a number of agencies to hit back at thieves and "unscrupulous" scrap dealers. "Metal theft is a huge, cross-industry, problem which is not only having a massive impact on the economy, but also communities across the nation, said deputy Ch Con Paul Crowther. "The day of action was designed to drive home the message that metal theft will not be tolerated and that all agencies will work together to tackle the issue." Other bodies involved in combating the problem include the Environment Agency, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, BT and Network Rail. British Transport Police said it considers cable theft second only to terrorism in its list of priorities. Home Office minister Lord Henley said: "It is clear that a law dating back to the 1960s is not sufficient to deal with an increasingly organised crime. "That is why we are looking at a range of legislative options, including ending payments in cash for scrap metal." Some 275 separate searches of scrap metal yards in the first two weeks of December led to 15 arrests and the seizure of 16 vehicles. Acpo said dedicated days of action would continue throughout 2012. |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
"SB" wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/news/?q=metal%20thefts ==== Scrap metal raids: Police seize tonnes of rail cable ************* About time too! Kev |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 28, 10:30*am, "Kev Lawrence"
wrote: About time too! Kev Indeed! Now all we need is government prepared to bring the law on scrap metal out of the days of Dickens and into the 21st century and courts prepared to believe the offence is worth more than the miniscule scrap value the thief gets........but don't hold your breath. George |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:11:34 -0800 (PST)
furnessvale wrote: Indeed! Now all we need is government prepared to bring the law on scrap metal out of the days of Dickens and into the 21st century and courts prepared to believe the offence is worth more than the miniscule scrap value the thief gets........but don't hold your breath. Expecting any sensible decision from the deluded liberal buffoons in the legal system is a hide to nothing these days. Justice long ago went out the window, its now just a trough the lawyers stick their snouts in and the judges use to play one-upmanship against the democratically elected commons. Home secretary wants to boot out some asylum seeker who's commited murder? No chance , because Sir Justice I'm-all-right-jack-in-my-country-retreat ****wit-Smyth will be along any minute to overturn it on appeal and pat himself on the back at what a good little liberal he's been. B2003 |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:11:34 -0800, furnessvale wrote:
Indeed! Now all we need is government prepared to bring the law on scrap metal out of the days of Dickens and into the 21st century and courts prepared to believe the offence is worth more than the miniscule scrap value the thief gets........but don't hold your breath. Maybe it's about time BT and Network Rail started taking civil actions against the thieves and the scrapyards for the consequential costs caused by their actions. A civil judgement for the compensation costs incurred by NR for a 6 hour shutdown on the ECML would probably be enough to close the scrapyard that paid for the signalling cable involved. Rgds Denis McMahon |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 28, 2:18*pm, Denis McMahon wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:11:34 -0800, furnessvale wrote: Indeed! *Now all we need is government prepared to bring the law on scrap metal out of the days of Dickens and into the 21st century and courts prepared to believe the offence is worth more than the miniscule scrap value the thief gets........but don't hold your breath. Maybe it's about time BT and Network Rail started taking civil actions against the thieves and the scrapyards for the consequential costs caused by their actions. A civil judgement for the compensation costs incurred by NR for a 6 hour shutdown on the ECML would probably be enough to close the scrapyard that paid for the signalling cable involved. Rgds Denis McMahon Consequential losses are seldom recoverable in civil actions, as being too remote. Compensation costs are contractual penalties between NR and TOCs and are irrecoverable in tort from a third party Indeed it might not be possible to prove that the scrapyards 'knew or ought to have known' the cable was stolen I would have thought that Restitution Orders or Proceeds of Crime orders against the proven perpetrators would be more likely to be successful (in the later their assets are seized and they have to demonstrate what proportion they can retain as coming from legitiate means). That assumes the proven perpetrators have any meaningful assets Patrick |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 28, 11:45*am, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:11:34 -0800 (PST) furnessvale wrote: Indeed! *Now all we need is government prepared to bring the law on scrap metal out of the days of Dickens and into the 21st century and courts prepared to believe the offence is worth more than the miniscule scrap value the thief gets........but don't hold your breath. Expecting any sensible decision from the deluded liberal buffoons in the legal system is a hide to nothing these days. Justice long ago went out the window, its now just a trough the lawyers stick their snouts in and the judges use to play one-upmanship against the democratically elected commons. Home secretary wants to boot out some asylum seeker who's commited murder? No chance , because Sir Justice I'm-all-right-jack-in-my-country-retreat ****wit-Smyth will be along any minute to overturn it on appeal and pat himself on the back at what a good little liberal he's been. B2003 Remembering of course that the judiciary follow sentancing guidelines, their deliberations on which are published and are subject to appeal (inckuding in cases of leniency) I suspect your beef is with the guidelines Patrick |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
"Denis McMahon" wrote in message
.com On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:11:34 -0800, furnessvale wrote: Indeed! Now all we need is government prepared to bring the law on scrap metal out of the days of Dickens and into the 21st century and courts prepared to believe the offence is worth more than the miniscule scrap value the thief gets........but don't hold your breath. Maybe it's about time BT and Network Rail started taking civil actions against the thieves and the scrapyards for the consequential costs caused by their actions. A civil judgement for the compensation costs incurred by NR for a 6 hour shutdown on the ECML would probably be enough to close the scrapyard that paid for the signalling cable involved. BBC London ran a sting operation a few weeks ago. They found that some dodgy scrapyards wouldn't buy obviously stolen BT cable (provided to the Beeb by BT), but did give sotto voce advice to the thieves on how to disguise the origins (ie, to burn off the insulation and melt the copper). They even suggested a quiet location where to do it. Once that was done, it's pretty hard to prove that it was originally stolen, and from whom/when/where, and so the scrapyards would then buy the anonymised copper from the returning 'thieves'. |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On 28/12/2011 00:05, SB wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/news/?q=metal%20thefts ==== Scrap metal raids: Police seize tonnes of rail cable The British Transport Police (BTP) regards metal theft second only to terrorism in its list of priorities http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16307310 Police have seized 14 tonnes of suspected stolen railway cable and made 45 arrests after searching around 160 scrap metal yards in a single day. The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) said the haul followed visits to 400 scrap metal recyclers in England and Wales on 14 December. The day of action aimed to tackle the "growing" crime of metal theft, thought to cost the economy £700m a year. Scotland Yard is launching a dedicated unit to target the thieves. The Waste and Metal Theft Taskforce is based in Bexley, south-east London, one of the boroughs most severely affected because of the high number of scrap metal yards. 'Unscrupulous' Meanwhile, a newly formed cross-ministerial group has also met several times to discuss the problem. It is clear that a law dating back to the 1960s is not sufficient to deal with an increasingly organised crime” Acpo said police across Britain had joined forces with a number of agencies to hit back at thieves and "unscrupulous" scrap dealers. "Metal theft is a huge, cross-industry, problem which is not only having a massive impact on the economy, but also communities across the nation, said deputy Ch Con Paul Crowther. "The day of action was designed to drive home the message that metal theft will not be tolerated and that all agencies will work together to tackle the issue." Other bodies involved in combating the problem include the Environment Agency, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, BT and Network Rail. British Transport Police said it considers cable theft second only to terrorism in its list of priorities. Home Office minister Lord Henley said: "It is clear that a law dating back to the 1960s is not sufficient to deal with an increasingly organised crime. "That is why we are looking at a range of legislative options, including ending payments in cash for scrap metal." Some 275 separate searches of scrap metal yards in the first two weeks of December led to 15 arrests and the seizure of 16 vehicles. Acpo said dedicated days of action would continue throughout 2012. I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage & endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. Bevan |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
In message , at 16:36:42 on
Wed, 28 Dec 2011, Bevan Price remarked: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage Perhaps. Or why not simply Criminal Damage? & endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. That's somewhat in conflict with the idea that signalling systems are fail-safe. -- Roland Perry |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 28, 4:36*pm, Bevan Price wrote:
I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage & endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. Bevan No need for that. Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. As another poster said, the real beef is with the guidlines and the dickhead who makes them. George |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:45:09 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:36:42 on Wed, 28 Dec 2011, Bevan Price remarked: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage Perhaps. Or why not simply Criminal Damage? & endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. That's somewhat in conflict with the idea that signalling systems are fail-safe. Removing lumps of power cable tends to put signals out, and a row of black signals isn't especially fail-safe. Then there's the rather creative method of theft intended to avoid detection which was employed recently (for obvious reasons I will not go into details). Suffice to say the use of that method on the wrong cables could result in a decidely non fail-safe situation. -- WZR |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
"WZR" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:45:09 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:36:42 on Wed, 28 Dec 2011, Bevan Price remarked: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage Perhaps. Or why not simply Criminal Damage? & endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. That's somewhat in conflict with the idea that signalling systems are fail-safe. Removing lumps of power cable tends to put signals out, and a row of black signals isn't especially fail-safe. Then there's the rather creative method of theft intended to avoid detection which was employed recently (for obvious reasons I will not go into details). Suffice to say the use of that method on the wrong cables could result in a decidely non fail-safe situation. -- WZR Yes that scares me what they are doing now. |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 28, 5:01*pm, furnessvale wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:36*pm, Bevan Price wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage & endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. Bevan No need for that. *Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. *When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. As another poster said, the real beef is with the guidlines and the dickhead who makes them. George That would be the maximum with several aggrevating factors, e.g. being the ringleader, violence or threats of violence. Discounts are applied for mitigating factors such as age, early guilty plea, genuine remorse, helpfulness to the police etc. Part of the sentence is usually paroled for good behaviour. I'm generally in favour of this approach Patrick |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
Then there's the rather creative method of theft intended to avoid
detection which was employed recently (for obvious reasons I will not go into details). Suffice to say the use of that method on the wrong cables could result in a decidely non fail-safe situation. Doesn't the absence of a signal indication where expected indicate "Stop" or the most restricting indication possible? That alone is fail safe. -- Merry Christmas Roger Traviss Photos of the late HO scale GER: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com For more photos not in the above album and kitbashes etc..:- http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...Great_Eastern/ |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
Roger Traviss wrote:
Then there's the rather creative method of theft intended to avoid detection which was employed recently (for obvious reasons I will not go into details). Suffice to say the use of that method on the wrong cables could result in a decidely non fail-safe situation. Doesn't the absence of a signal indication where expected indicate "Stop" or the most restricting indication possible? That alone is fail safe. In the dark, in the fog on a bend with lots of lines??? -- Tim Watts |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
"Tim Watts" wrote in message ... Roger Traviss wrote: Then there's the rather creative method of theft intended to avoid detection which was employed recently (for obvious reasons I will not go into details). Suffice to say the use of that method on the wrong cables could result in a decidely non fail-safe situation. Doesn't the absence of a signal indication where expected indicate "Stop" or the most restricting indication possible? That alone is fail safe. In the dark, in the fog on a bend with lots of lines??? This is what can happen when a signal is unlit http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/doc...ssocks1978.pdf The train which followed the collided train also passed the unlit signal, but stopped short of the collision. Peter |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On 28/12/2011 17:01, furnessvale wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:36 pm, Bevan wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage& endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. Bevan No need for that. Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. George I think that plain "theft" is not severe enough. Something like wilful sabotage deserves a lot more than 7 years to punish offenders and deter others. More like 20 years minimum would be my suggestion. (And before anyone suggests you get less for murder, I think murderers should get 100 years without remission. ) Bevan |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:10:07 +0000, Bevan Price
wrote: On 28/12/2011 17:01, furnessvale wrote: On Dec 28, 4:36 pm, Bevan wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage& endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. Bevan No need for that. Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. George I think that plain "theft" is not severe enough. Something like wilful sabotage deserves a lot more than 7 years to punish offenders and deter others. More like 20 years minimum would be my suggestion. "Section 33 Offences Against the Person Act 1861 - note the intent to injure or endanger the safety of persons on railways must be present. The offence carries, on conviction, [a maximum penalty of?**] life imprisonment;" [http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/r...ort_offences/] (**AFAIAA murder is the only offence for which only a life sentence is available.) The same maximum penalty applies in Scotland for the Common Law offence of culpable and reckless conduct. (And before anyone suggests you get less for murder, I think murderers should get 100 years without remission. ) They all get "life" but not necessarily/usually in the form of lifelong incarceration. The circumstances vary greatly between cases and locking people up for ever is seldom appropriate. |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 06:28:48 -0800, D1039 wrote:
On Dec 28, 2:18Â*pm, Denis McMahon wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:11:34 -0800, furnessvale wrote: Indeed! Â*Now all we need is government prepared to bring the law on scrap metal out of the days of Dickens and into the 21st century and courts prepared to believe the offence is worth more than the miniscule scrap value the thief gets........but don't hold your breath. Maybe it's about time BT and Network Rail started taking civil actions against the thieves and the scrapyards for the consequential costs caused by their actions. A civil judgement for the compensation costs incurred by NR for a 6 hour shutdown on the ECML would probably be enough to close the scrapyard that paid for the signalling cable involved. Consequential losses are seldom recoverable in civil actions, as being too remote. Perhaps legislation should address this? Compensation costs are contractual penalties between NR and TOCs and are irrecoverable in tort from a third party Ditto. Or make the punishment fit the crime, and connect anyone convicted of involvement in cable theft to a suitable cable. 11Kv would be good. Rgds Denis McMahon |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On 28/12/2011 17:01, furnessvale wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:36 pm, Bevan wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage& endangering safety of rail passe ngers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. Bevan No need for that. Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. As another poster said, the real beef is with the guidlines and the dickhead who makes them. George I would like to see more creative use of charging like happens in the USA. If there are a series of thefts then charge them with them all and give them consecutive sentences. Add trespassing on railway property, endangering passengers and not having a dog licence each with consecutive sentences. In the UK they seem to chose one specimen charge often not the most serious one then of course seven years means they will only serve about three years. The newspapers play along with the legal system with headlines like "metal thieves get twenty years" which when you read them actually mean perhaps five people got sentences of up to five years so will serve two years. |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On 28 Dec 2011 23:14:17 GMT, Denis McMahon
wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 06:28:48 -0800, D1039 wrote: On Dec 28, 2:18*pm, Denis McMahon wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:11:34 -0800, furnessvale wrote: Indeed! *Now all we need is government prepared to bring the law on scrap metal out of the days of Dickens and into the 21st century and courts prepared to believe the offence is worth more than the miniscule scrap value the thief gets........but don't hold your breath. Maybe it's about time BT and Network Rail started taking civil actions against the thieves and the scrapyards for the consequential costs caused by their actions. A civil judgement for the compensation costs incurred by NR for a 6 hour shutdown on the ECML would probably be enough to close the scrapyard that paid for the signalling cable involved. Consequential losses are seldom recoverable in civil actions, as being too remote. Perhaps legislation should address this? Unlikely. If anything the current lot wants to crack down on the "compensation culture". In any case, once you become the victim of a victim etc. it becomes increasingly hard to apportion all the blame on the other end of the chain ("all the local buses were up Glen Faeces that day so it isn't all our fault anyway"). In many cases it will be a good bet that even if an action was successful then there would not be sufficient assets to be seized to cover the claim. Compensation costs are contractual penalties between NR and TOCs and are irrecoverable in tort from a third party Ditto. Or make the punishment fit the crime, and connect anyone convicted of involvement in cable theft to a suitable cable. 11Kv would be good. Rgds Denis McMahon |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:55:19 +0000, MB wrote:
On 28/12/2011 17:01, furnessvale wrote: On Dec 28, 4:36 pm, Bevan wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage& endangering safety of rail passe ngers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. Bevan No need for that. Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. As another poster said, the real beef is with the guidlines and the dickhead who makes them. George I would like to see more creative use of charging like happens in the USA. If there are a series of thefts then charge them with them all and give them consecutive sentences. Add trespassing on railway property, endangering passengers and not having a dog licence each with consecutive sentences. In the UK they seem to chose one specimen charge often not the most serious one then of course seven years means they will only serve about three years. The newspapers play along with the legal system with headlines like "metal thieves get twenty years" which when you read them actually mean perhaps five people got sentences of up to five years so will serve two years. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16352524 -- Frank Erskine |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
"Bevan Price" wrote in message ... On 28/12/2011 17:01, furnessvale wrote: On Dec 28, 4:36 pm, Bevan wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage& endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. Bevan No need for that. Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. Theft of raiway cable can result in the death penalty for the perpetrators. :o) -- Ian1 |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 06:30:47 -0800 (PST)
D1039 wrote: Home secretary wants to boot out some asylum seeker who's commited murder= ? No chance , because Sir Justice I'm-all-right-jack-in-my-country-retreat ****wit-Smyth will be along any minute to overturn it on appeal and pat himself on the back at what a good little liberal he's been. B2003 Remembering of course that the judiciary follow sentancing guidelines, their deliberations on which are published and are subject to appeal (inckuding in cases of leniency) I suspect your beef is with the guidelines There are no guidelines for that sort of thing and besides which there's a world of difference between guidelines and rules. The judges just love to take the human rights act to the extreme just to stick it to the politicians. If these worthy fossils want the power of elected office they should stand for it though I suspect they realise that no one would vote for them in a million years so they try and aquire power through the back door. B2003 |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 29, 10:07*am, "Ian" wrote:
"Bevan Price" wrote in message ... On 28/12/2011 17:01, furnessvale wrote: On Dec 28, 4:36 pm, Bevan *wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage& *endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & *penalties. Bevan No need for that. *Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. *When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. Theft of raiway cable can result in the death penalty for the perpetrators. :o) -- Ian1 IMO not nearly often enough (cue the bleeding hearts). George |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
There are no guidelines for that sort of thing and besides which there's a world of difference between guidelines and rules. The judges just love to take the human rights act to the extreme just to stick it to the politicians. If these worthy fossils want the power of elected office they should stand for it though I suspect they realise that no one would vote for them in a million years so they try and aquire power through the back door. B2003 You write complete rubbish but if you think your views are representative I think you should find a bigger audience and try getting into elective politics. But please do not pollute the atmosphere around here with your inane opinions. |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On 29/12/2011 11:08, JJ wrote:
There are no guidelines for that sort of thing and besides which there's a world of difference between guidelines and rules. The judges just love to take the human rights act to the extreme just to stick it to the politicians. If these worthy fossils want the power of elected office they should stand for it though I suspect they realise that no one would vote for them in a million years so they try and aquire power through the back door. B2003 You write complete rubbish but if you think your views are representative I think you should find a bigger audience and try getting into elective politics. But please do not pollute the atmosphere around here with your inane opinions. Said the judge... -- Moving things in still pictures |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 29, 10:07*am, "Ian" wrote:
"Bevan Price" wrote in message ... On 28/12/2011 17:01, furnessvale wrote: On Dec 28, 4:36 pm, Bevan *wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage& *endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & *penalties. Bevan No need for that. *Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. *When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. Theft of raiway cable can result in the death penalty for the perpetrators. :o) -- Ian1 Yes - the great thing - which just about demonstrates the level of intelligence of the pickey scrotes - is that some are electrocuted and even killed when they try to steal live electrical cables. I mean think of the overall intelligence of someone attacking an overhead cable with a hack saw. The mind boggles. Electrocution and burns is too good for them. SB |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 28, 2:28*pm, D1039 wrote:
On Dec 28, 2:18*pm, Denis McMahon wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:11:34 -0800, furnessvale wrote: Indeed! *Now all we need is government prepared to bring the law on scrap metal out of the days of Dickens and into the 21st century and courts prepared to believe the offence is worth more than the miniscule scrap value the thief gets........but don't hold your breath. Maybe it's about time BT and Network Rail started taking civil actions against the thieves and the scrapyards for the consequential costs caused by their actions. A civil judgement for the compensation costs incurred by NR for a 6 hour shutdown on the ECML would probably be enough to close the scrapyard that paid for the signalling cable involved. Rgds Denis McMahon Consequential losses are seldom recoverable in civil actions, as being too remote. Compensation costs are contractual penalties between NR and TOCs and are irrecoverable in tort from a third party Indeed it might not be possible to prove that the scrapyards 'knew or ought to have known' the cable was stolen I would have thought that Restitution Orders or Proceeds of Crime orders against the proven perpetrators would be more likely to be successful (in the later their assets are seized and they have to demonstrate what proportion they can retain as coming from legitiate means). That assumes the proven perpetrators have any meaningful assets Patrick- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Excuse me replying to my own post, but a good example of Proceeds of Crime seizures is shown (in the below link) by Holyhead border officials (and so tenuously on thread for uk.railway!) http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nort...5578-30026703/ Patrick |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 29, 12:55*am, MB wrote:
On 28/12/2011 17:01, furnessvale wrote: On Dec 28, 4:36 pm, Bevan *wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage& *endangering safety of rail passe ngers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & *penalties. Bevan No need for that. *Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. *When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. As another poster said, the real beef is with the guidlines and the dickhead who makes them. George I would like to see more creative use of charging like happens in the USA. *If there are a series of thefts then charge them with them all and give them consecutive sentences. *Add trespassing on railway property, endangering passengers and not having a dog licence each with consecutive sentences. *In the UK they seem to chose one specimen charge often not the most serious one then of course seven years means they will only serve about three years. *The newspapers play along with the legal system with headlines like "metal thieves get twenty years" which when you read them actually mean perhaps five people got sentences of up to five years so will serve two years.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Defending solicitors may advise their clients to ask for offences to be taken into consideration, reminding them that there are thresholds at which higher sentences result. Often the offences to be taken into consideration fall just short of the nest sentencing threshold - odd that. Re Consecutive and concurrent sentences: "In the case of R v O'Brien and others [2006] EWCA Crim 1741, (followed in R v O'Halloran [2006] EWCA 3148) the Court of Appeal considered whether one sentence of imprisonment for public protection could be ordered to run consecutively to another sentence of imprisonment for public protection. The Court determined that while not unlawful, it is undesirable to impose consecutive indeterminate sentences or an indeterminate sentence consecutive to another period of imprisonment". More on http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/s...offenders/#a18 Patrick |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:08:18 -0800 (PST)
JJ wrote: You write complete rubbish but if you think your views are representative I think you should find a bigger audience and try getting into elective politics. But please do not pollute the atmosphere around here with your inane opinions. Oh dear, are only opinions you agree with tolerated here? What a good little "liberal" you are. Award yourself a cub scouts right-on badge. Don't like mine? Don't read them. Or better yet, shove your objections up your arse and go **** yourself with them. B2003 |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:28:43 -0800 (PST)
SB wrote: Yes - the great thing - which just about demonstrates the level of intelligence of the pickey scrotes - is that some are electrocuted and even killed when they try to steal live electrical cables. I mean think of the overall intelligence of someone attacking an overhead cable with a hack saw. The mind boggles. Electrocution and burns is too good for them. SB Its rather comforting to know that natural selection still operates. B2003 |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On 28/12/2011 20:01, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:10:07 +0000, Bevan Price wrote: On 28/12/2011 17:01, furnessvale wrote: On Dec 28, 4:36 pm, Bevan wrote: I would suggest that the law needs to be changed so that cable thieves can be charged with "sabotage& endangering safety of rail passengers", rather than theft, with severe minimum penalties specified by law, such that some namby-pamby do-gooder could not reduce to a token level of sentence. Dodgy scrap dealers should also face similarly severe charges & penalties. Bevan No need for that. Theft carries a maximum penalty of 7 years, handling even more. When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. George I think that plain "theft" is not severe enough. Something like wilful sabotage deserves a lot more than 7 years to punish offenders and deter others. More like 20 years minimum would be my suggestion. "Section 33 Offences Against the Person Act 1861 - note the intent to injure or endanger the safety of persons on railways must be present. The offence carries, on conviction, [a maximum penalty of?**] life imprisonment;" [http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/r...ort_offences/] (**AFAIAA murder is the only offence for which only a life sentence is available.) The same maximum penalty applies in Scotland for the Common Law offence of culpable and reckless conduct. (And before anyone suggests you get less for murder, I think murderers should get 100 years without remission. ) They all get "life" but not necessarily/usually in the form of lifelong incarceration. The circumstances vary greatly between cases and locking people up for ever is seldom appropriate. That is a matter of personal opinion. I suspect that many millions would disagree with you. Bevan |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 28, 8:01*pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
(**AFAIAA murder is the only offence for which only a life sentence is available.) I think not. From HMG: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/YoungPeo...me/DG_10027693 "The maximum sentences for intent to supply drugs are... up to life in prison or an unlimited fine (or both) for a Class A drug" From HMG: http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/p...ender/life.htm "The maximum sentence that can be awarded by the Courts for a number of other types of offences, for example rape, manslaughter and arson is life imprisonment". Wikipedia incidentally lists all common law offences, rape, inflicting GBH with intent, wounding with intent, treason, aggravated burglary, criminal damage with intent to endanger life. But not, yet, cable theft Patrick Patrick |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
"D1039" wrote in message ... On Dec 28, 8:01 pm, Charles Ellson wrote: (**AFAIAA murder is the only offence for which *only* a life sentence is available.) I think not. From HMG: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/YoungPeo...me/DG_10027693 "The maximum sentences for intent to supply drugs are... up to life in prison or an unlimited fine (or both) for a Class A drug" See the word *only* in Charles's post. There are a range of offences for which life imprisonment is available, but only murder for which a mandatory life sentence must be imposed. It seems that a determinate sentence may even be imposed for treason. Peter |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 28, 2:30*pm, D1039 wrote:
Remembering of course that the judiciary follow sentancing guidelines, their deliberations on which are published and are subject to appeal (inckuding in cases of leniency) Indeed, every time a survey is done in which people are asked what they think is a suitable sentence for a particular crime and what they think is the typical sentence for a particular crime, _both_ estimates turn out to be less than the average sentence. People massively underestimate both the rate of imprisonment and the length of prison sentences. See for example http://goo.gl/VU7I2 ian |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 29, 4:35*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"D1039" wrote in message ... On Dec 28, 8:01 pm, Charles Ellson wrote: (**AFAIAA murder is the only offence for which *only* a life sentence is available.) I think not. From HMG: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/YoungPeo.../TypesOfCrime/... "The maximum sentences for intent to supply drugs are... up to life in prison or an unlimited fine (or both) for a Class A drug" See the word *only* in Charles's post. There are a range of offences for which life imprisonment is available, but only murder for which a mandatory life sentence must be imposed. It seems that a determinate sentence may even be imposed for treason. Peter Correct - apologies to you both Patrick |
Metal Thefts Soar ...
On Dec 28, 5:01*pm, furnessvale wrote:
When did you see anyone, let alone these scroats, get anywhere near these sorts of tariff. I don't have access to a complete set of sentencing outcomes. And nor, I suspect, do you. The Daily Mail doesn't report all trials, you know, ian |
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