In article ,
John Levine wrote:
They never ask for a signature, unless you're swiping a non-chip
(usually U.S.) card.

Not quite true; chip and sign (as opposed to chip and pin) cards exist.

--
Mike Bristow

In message , at 10:50:46 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
The two-pass scheme is used in other circumstances, such as checking
into a hotel, when they often "reserve" an estimate of the final bill,
ahead of the day you eventually check out.

Hotels are the most obvious example, but restaurants with waitstaff do
the same thing: they will authorize the card for the subtotal (price
plus tax) plus a liberal estimated tip (eg. 20-25%). Either way, the
actual total isn't submitted until the transaction is
posted--potentially several days, not "milliseconds", later.

The "milliseconds" scenario is when I'm buying hardware from a store,
and am standing at the checkout.
--
Roland Perry

Aside from our lack of EMV, things aren't done differently in the US;
don't take Adam's misunderstandings as authoritative.

In places with chip+pin it's much more common to arrange payments so
they can be done in one transaction. At restaurants, for example,
they typically hand you the card terminal so you can stick your card
in, enter a tip if you want, then your pin, then it says yes or no and
you take your card out.

The only places I can think of offhand that do a separate authorization are
hotels, where the charges are likely to happen over multiple days.

R's,
John
--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

On 26/02/2012 10:39, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:55:37 on Sat, 25 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some
retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

By "call the credit card company", do you mean actually speak with a
human, or just do a standard automated authorization?

With a human.

Perhaps I just don't spend enough money to run into that ceiling, but I
regularly charge amounts up to ~USD 3k.

My bank does periodically call me /after the fact/ to verify atypical
transactions, but merchants never see that: their authorization goes
through normally.

Like I said before, I had a $300 transaction in the USA which resulted
in the retailer having to make a phone call, and subsequently asking me
for ID (which I thought wasn't allowed, but there you are). After the
transaction went through, my bank tried calling me to verify that it was
OK, but by then it was the middle of the night and it went to voicemail.
I spent much of the next day working out how to collect my voicemail
from 'overseas' (I'd just switched mobile service).

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.

More specifically, it will depend on the drive-off (i.e. theft) rate at
that location or in that neighborhood.

And you can't predict that by the demographic, of course.

Was that sarcasm?

Indeed. I used a gas station in the bad part of town (here in UK) this
week, and I've never seen one with so many notices saying it was an
offence to drive off without paying (even then, they were using
post-payment).

Are there any places where you can, for example, just tank up and drive
off, and then later receive a bill in the post or have your bank account
linked to automatically take payment at the end of each month?

You would, naturally, need an account and would have to insert a card
into the pump for identification and to release the pump.

On 26/02/2012 10:42, Roland Perry wrote:
In , at 00:22:12 on Sun, 26
Feb 2012, remarked:
UK credit cards and proximity cards are different things.

They are "converging things". I don't know of any post-payment proximity
cards that aren't also conventional credit cards. But only a few
conventional credit cards have the proximity technology.

Barclays Bank, IIRC.

Barclaycards, which were at one time all VISA, but I have a Barclay
Mastercard, just to prove it's possible.

I was referring to the fact that Barclays Bank apparently offers the
proximity service with its card.

It is well known to do so. But there are others. This news story
clarifies many of the myths expressed in this thread:

http://www.mbna.co.uk/about-us/news-...ches-the-uk-s-
first-american-express-branded-contactless-credit-cards/

Haven't seen Amex with a proximity card yet, though will be sure to keep
an eye out.

Is there any sort of timeframe when other UK banks plan to introduce
proximity cards? Will they eventually serve as a replacement for Oyster
cards, as I have heard?

Roland Perry wrote:
at 15:39:25 on Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

My one step: Enter PIN which is checked, and terminal asks CCC
for auth for the exact amount, checking for stolen
cards, floor limits and available credit.
Their one step: [Usually] CCC sends auth to retailer's terminal, which
displays "accepted".

Does the retailer also receive a transaction ID number, a number that
also appears on the cardholder's monthly statement?

If so, then the procedure is comparable to what happens here.

UK credit card statements (including Amex) don't usually have
transaction numbers.

Ok. I bet the transactions are numbered, though.

What I was disputing was your retailer "two pass model", with the card
itself being authorised up to some "reserved" amount, ahead of the
actual amount being claimed milliseconds later by the retailer.

The card isn't swiped twice. The merchants receives data in two steps.

I don't know why they'd do that, rather than ask for authorisation of
the actual amount first, because in the UK the amount has to be known
before you enter your PIN into the C&P device, as entering your PIN is
an agreement to pay that precise amount.

Uh, always? What do you do at a fuel station which requires a credit
card before dispensing fuel, or at a restaurant, when the tip amount
to be charged is not known until later, or at a hotel that requires
a credit card to create a reservation and the same one or another
one to check in?

The two-pass scheme is used in other circumstances, such as checking
into a hotel, when they often "reserve" an estimate of the final bill,
ahead of the day you eventually check out.

Ah. So the amount isn't always known. Do you provide the PIN
at that point, or not?

Hotels, rental car companies, may bill you for charges after you are
presented with the final bill.

Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 25-Feb-12 15:46, Roland Perry wrote:
at 17:30:39 on Sat, 25 Feb 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

I routinely spend amounts of the order of a thousand dollars at
retailers by Chip and PIN card, and it's a one-shot process.

If that's true, then I suspect your credit limit is stored on the card.

It isn't. What you have to accept is that things are done differently in
USA vs the rest of the world.

Aside from our lack of EMV, things aren't done differently in the US;
don't take Adam's misunderstandings as authoritative.

Impressive maturity there, Stephen. I now expect you to own up to
the several misstatements I've caught you at as you always do,
hahahahahahahahaha.

In message , at 17:49:25 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, John Levine remarked:
In places with chip+pin it's much more common to arrange payments so
they can be done in one transaction. At restaurants, for example,
they typically hand you the card terminal so you can stick your card
in, enter a tip if you want, then your pin, then it says yes or no and
you take your card out.

Exactly. I don't know how a restaurant could do an earlier estimated
reservation of funds, when the only time you give the server your card
is either at the till on the way out, or at the table when he brings the
wireless terminal to you.
--
Roland Perry

On 26-Feb-12 11:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:50:46 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
The two-pass scheme is used in other circumstances, such as checking
into a hotel, when they often "reserve" an estimate of the final bill,
ahead of the day you eventually check out.

Hotels are the most obvious example, but restaurants with waitstaff do
the same thing: they will authorize the card for the subtotal (price
plus tax) plus a liberal estimated tip (eg. 20-25%). Either way, the
actual total isn't submitted until the transaction is
posted--potentially several days, not "milliseconds", later.

The "milliseconds" scenario is when I'm buying hardware from a store,
and am standing at the checkout.

A hardware store is not a hotel or restaurant. You snipped the relevant
response:

Most other merchants authorize for the exact total, since it is known as
soon as the purchases are rung up.

There are still two steps: the merchant gets authorization at the time
of purchase and then posts the transaction at some later time,
potentially several days later.

You may not be _aware_ of the second step, but it's there.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

In message , at 18:32:17 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:
UK credit card statements (including Amex) don't usually have
transaction numbers.

Ok. I bet the transactions are numbered, though.

Internally I expect they are, but the numbers are not revealed to the
cardholder.

What I was disputing was your retailer "two pass model", with the card
itself being authorised up to some "reserved" amount, ahead of the
actual amount being claimed milliseconds later by the retailer.

The card isn't swiped twice.

In a C&P terminal it's not swiped at all. "Inserted" would be a better
verb.

The merchants receives data in two steps.

You'll have to tell us what's in these two [rather than one] steps
(genuine question).

I don't know why they'd do that, rather than ask for authorisation of
the actual amount first, because in the UK the amount has to be known
before you enter your PIN into the C&P device, as entering your PIN is
an agreement to pay that precise amount.

Uh, always? What do you do at a fuel station which requires a credit
card before dispensing fuel,

That's an exception, because of the way self-service pumps work (they
check the card first, then make the charge later).

or at a restaurant, when the tip amount to be charged is not known
until later,

In a UK restaurant you have to add the tip to the bill before contacting
the card company. That's not so very different from my experience in the
USA where they give you the bill, with an empty field for the tip, which
you hand to the waiter *filled in* (along with your card).

or at a hotel that requires a credit card to create a reservation and
the same one or another one to check in?

We've covered multi-day charges like this.

The two-pass scheme is used in other circumstances, such as checking
into a hotel, when they often "reserve" an estimate of the final bill,
ahead of the day you eventually check out.

Ah. So the amount isn't always known. Do you provide the PIN
at that point, or not?

Yes. They appear to make a small charge (maybe ten dollars) which they
credit later, once the real amount of the "extras" is known the day you
check out.

Hotels, rental car companies, may bill you for charges after you are
presented with the final bill.

And special arrangements exist for those circumstances. Being by
definition "customer not present", I expect they are more at the
merchant's risk than charges they levy while you are still on the
premises.
--
Roland Perry