I discovered a sneaky and little publicised aspect of the latest fares
hike today.

Bus 84 runs from New Barnet to Potters Bar and then St Albans. It is
a long established route, dating back (literally) 100 years.
Recently, oyster cards and travelcards have been accepted between New
Barnet (which is inside Greater London) and Potters Bar (which is just
outside).

Today I boarded a southbound bus in Barnet, and found that oyster
cards and travelcards were no longer accepted on this route. I am not
personally affected, as I am sufficiently senior to use a freedom
pass, but it seems a mean and underhand trick to remove this
availability on a route which, for all practical purposes, is part of
the London bus network at its southern end. It also runs along some
roads inside London which are not served by any other route.

I searched the TfL website, but could find no mention of this change.
It is not included in their 'latest service changes' bulletin. Are any
other routes similarly affected? Is this the thin end of a wedge
leading to the fragmentation of London buses, as has happened in the
rest of the country?

Peter

"peter" wrote:
I discovered a sneaky and little publicised aspect of the latest fares
hike today.

Bus 84 runs from New Barnet to Potters Bar and then St Albans. It is
a long established route, dating back (literally) 100 years.
Recently, oyster cards and travelcards have been accepted between New
Barnet (which is inside Greater London) and Potters Bar (which is just
outside).

Today I boarded a southbound bus in Barnet, and found that oyster
cards and travelcards were no longer accepted on this route. I am not
personally affected, as I am sufficiently senior to use a freedom
pass, but it seems a mean and underhand trick to remove this
availability on a route which, for all practical purposes, is part of
the London bus network at its southern end. It also runs along some
roads inside London which are not served by any other route.

I searched the TfL website, but could find no mention of this change.
It is not included in their 'latest service changes' bulletin. Are any
other routes similarly affected? Is this the thin end of a wedge
leading to the fragmentation of London buses, as has happened in the
rest of the country?


The 84 is not a TfL-tendered bus service - i.e. it's not part of the London
Bus network as such. Rather it's a commercial service, run by Metroline, on
which TfL tickets are - or at least were - accepted for journeys within
Greater London.

Others will correct me, but AIUI bus services such as this used to be run
within Greater London under a regime called 'London Local Service
Agreements' (LLSA), but are now run under slightly different regime called
'London Service Permits' (LSP) (both were/are granted by TfL). There's a bit
more info he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/busoperators/1228.aspx

In the latest "London Service Permit Bulletin" available from the above
page...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/lsp_bulletin.pdf
....the Metroline 84 service features on page 20 under the heading:
"2 January 2012 - Application for a new London Service Permit to replace a
London Local Service Agreement".

So it would appears as though the service has shifted over from the old LLSA
regime to the new LSP regime for licensing purposes. The blurb does say:
"NOTE: Operation of service transferred from LLSA to LSP with no changes to
routeings, picking up and setting down points, terminal points, vehicles or
timetable."

However, there's no mention of fares or ticketing acceptance (or the lack
thereof under the new LSP).

TfL used to produce a handy leaflet (or at least PDF) called "Beyond the
fringes" which detailed acceptance of TfL tickets on buses which ran beyond
the Greater London boundary, but they haven't done so for two or three years
now and AFAICS there's a dearth of any official information about this now.

But no, worry not, this isn't the thin end of the wedge in the sense of
London's bus services becoming fragmented - ticket acceptance (or lack
thereof) on commercial services that run into Greater London from the
there-be-dragons territory beyond the boundary is something of an edge issue
(in both senses of the word) - meanwhile the tendered nature of the London
Bus network is not under any threat (thankfully!). Not that it's an
unimportant issue, mind - I'd think that ideally most such services (local
ones at least, not express coach services) should accept TfL tickets for
journeys wholly within Greater London.

You could always contact London Buses customer services to find out what the
score is in relation to the 84:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/4417.aspx#page-link-london-buses

On 10/01/2012 15:08, Mizter T wrote:

"peter" wrote:
Bus 84 runs from New Barnet to Potters Bar and then St Albans. It is
a long established route, dating back (literally) 100 years.
Recently, oyster cards and travelcards have been accepted between New
Barnet (which is inside Greater London) and Potters Bar (which is just
outside).

Today I boarded a southbound bus in Barnet, and found that oyster
cards and travelcards were no longer accepted on this route. I am not
personally affected, as I am sufficiently senior to use a freedom
pass, but it seems a mean and underhand trick to remove this
availability on a route which, for all practical purposes, is part of
the London bus network at its southern end. It also runs along some
roads inside London which are not served by any other route.

I searched the TfL website, but could find no mention of this change.
It is not included in their 'latest service changes' bulletin. Are any
other routes similarly affected? Is this the thin end of a wedge
leading to the fragmentation of London buses, as has happened in the
rest of the country?


The 84 is not a TfL-tendered bus service - i.e. it's not part of the
London Bus network as such. Rather it's a commercial service, run by
Metroline, on which TfL tickets are - or at least were - accepted for
journeys within Greater London.

Others will correct me, but AIUI bus services such as this used to be
run within Greater London under a regime called 'London Local Service
Agreements' (LLSA), but are now run under slightly different regime
called 'London Service Permits' (LSP) (both were/are granted by TfL).
There's a bit more info he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/busoperators/1228.aspx

In the latest "London Service Permit Bulletin" available from the above
page...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/lsp_bulletin.pdf

...the Metroline 84 service features on page 20 under the heading:
"2 January 2012 - Application for a new London Service Permit to replace
a London Local Service Agreement".

So it would appears as though the service has shifted over from the old
LLSA regime to the new LSP regime for licensing purposes. The blurb does
say:
"NOTE: Operation of service transferred from LLSA to LSP with no changes
to routeings, picking up and setting down points, terminal points,
vehicles or timetable."

However, there's no mention of fares or ticketing acceptance (or the
lack thereof under the new LSP).

TfL used to produce a handy leaflet (or at least PDF) called "Beyond the
fringes" which detailed acceptance of TfL tickets on buses which ran
beyond the Greater London boundary, but they haven't done so for two or
three years now and AFAICS there's a dearth of any official information
about this now.

But no, worry not, this isn't the thin end of the wedge in the sense of
London's bus services becoming fragmented - ticket acceptance (or lack
thereof) on commercial services that run into Greater London from the
there-be-dragons territory beyond the boundary is something of an edge
issue (in both senses of the word) - meanwhile the tendered nature of
the London Bus network is not under any threat (thankfully!). Not that
it's an unimportant issue, mind - I'd think that ideally most such
services (local ones at least, not express coach services) should accept
TfL tickets for journeys wholly within Greater London.

You could always contact London Buses customer services to find out what
the score is in relation to the 84:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/4417.aspx#page-link-london-buses

See www.metroline.co.uk/news-item.html?id=29 which announces this
change from 2.1.12. Holders of TfL tickets can however get a reduced
fare of £1.35 between New Barnet and Potters Bar.

In message om, Peter
Lawrence writes
See www.metroline.co.uk/news-item.html?id=29 which announces this
change from 2.1.12. Holders of TfL tickets can however get a reduced
fare of £1.35 between New Barnet and Potters Bar.

For as long as I can remember Oystercards and Bus Passes have been
accepted on the 84 (I grew up in Potters Bar a couple of decades ago) -
it was an excellent "value" way of travelling into Town all the way by
bus. I'm amazed that this has been changed (and could be changed)
without any TfL publicity. Thanks for flagging it up (the original)
Peter.

The 84 was was also a non DDA compliant bus long after all the rest of
the buses had been converted to low floors models (and press releases
had gone out to state that the entire network was converted). It seemed
to swap over (and go to being a single decker) shortly after I posted
TfL an email pointing this out (but that could just be my false
recollection).

It's at the periphery of the network and obviously doesn't have the same
status as other bus routes, so seems to get overlooked. Once upon a
time it did get some Hertfordshire County Council funding I seem to
recall to run its Sunday services, but I've no idea if that still
happens. The all-red TfL livery does confuse though, as one expects it
to operate on the same criteria as all the other TfL liveried buses
(e.g. aforementioned ticket acceptance).

I've lobbed TfL an email because I'm curious about this lack of
information. Shall post the results when I hear.

--
Paul G
Typing from Kentish Town

Mizter T wrote

But no, worry not, this isn't the thin end of the wedge in the sense
of
London's bus services becoming fragmented - ticket acceptance (or
lack
thereof) on commercial services that run into Greater London from the

there-be-dragons territory beyond the boundary is something of an
edge issue
(in both senses of the word) - meanwhile the tendered nature of the
London
Bus network is not under any threat (thankfully!).


Not that it's an
unimportant issue, mind - I'd think that ideally most such services
(local
ones at least, not express coach services) should accept TfL tickets
for
journeys wholly within Greater London.

Which would require them to install Oyster card readers and
particicipate in the ODTC revenue sharing system. Plus would they be
paid nothing for an Oyster card that had reached its daily cap or a
child photocard ?

Abellio Surrey (services like Guildford-Kingston) have a "Oyster Match"
fare for the segment of route within Zones (and a bit more). You pay in
cash but at the Oyster flat fare rate of £1.40, for eg Kingston to
Dittons Winters Bridge or to Hampton Court.

--
Mike D

On Jan 11, 1:54*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
Mizter T wrote





But no, worry not, this isn't the thin end of the wedge in the sense
of
London's bus services becoming fragmented - ticket acceptance (or
lack
thereof) on commercial services that run into Greater London from the
there-be-dragons territory beyond the boundary is something of an
edge issue
(in both senses of the word) - meanwhile the tendered nature of the
London
Bus network is not under any threat (thankfully!).

Not that it's an

unimportant issue, mind - I'd think that ideally most such services
(local
ones at least, not express coach services) should accept TfL tickets
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf for
journeys wholly within Greater London.

Which would require them to install Oyster card readers and
particicipate in the ODTC revenue sharing system. Plus would they be
paid nothing for an Oyster card *that had reached its daily cap or a
child photocard ?


http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf
suggests that TfL are looking to extend Oyster to bus companies
outside London as part of the contactless payment card acceptance
scheme, presumably using the PAYG balance as an e-purse to purchase
the bus companies existing products.

On Jan 15, 5:01*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:59:17 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson

wrote:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf
suggests that TfL are looking to extend Oyster to bus companies
outside London as part of the contactless payment card acceptance
scheme, presumably using the PAYG balance as an e-purse to purchase
the bus companies existing products.

Interesting given the strategy, as recently evidenced to the GLA
transport committee, within London is to move away from Oyster to use
of contactless bank cards and off system settlement / capping. *We
also have the DfT funded work to ensure ITSO spec cards can be read by
all TfL oyster readers. *You have to wonder quite what it is that
passengers will be expected to have in their wallets in a couple of
years time to use TfL services, NR trains and buses outside London. *A
combined contactless bank and ITSO card ?

--
Paul C

Contactless has a limit of £15 which is unlikely to be changed in the
short term. So yes, either a combined ITSO / contactless payment card,
or separate cards will need to be issued.

In message
, at
18:25:30 on Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
Contactless has a limit of £15 which is unlikely to be changed in the
short term. So yes, either a combined ITSO / contactless payment card,
or separate cards will need to be issued.

I wonder if Saga could do a combined Twirly/Credit Card?
--
Roland Perry

On 16/01/2012 02:25, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
On Jan 15, 5:01 pm, Paul wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:59:17 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson

wrote:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf
suggests that TfL are looking to extend Oyster to bus companies
outside London as part of the contactless payment card acceptance
scheme, presumably using the PAYG balance as an e-purse to purchase
the bus companies existing products.

Interesting given the strategy, as recently evidenced to the GLA
transport committee, within London is to move away from Oyster to use
of contactless bank cards and off system settlement / capping. We
also have the DfT funded work to ensure ITSO spec cards can be read by
all TfL oyster readers. You have to wonder quite what it is that
passengers will be expected to have in their wallets in a couple of
years time to use TfL services, NR trains and buses outside London. A
combined contactless bank and ITSO card ?

--
Paul C

Contactless has a limit of £15 which is unlikely to be changed in the
short term. So yes, either a combined ITSO / contactless payment card,
or separate cards will need to be issued.

My understanding is that the limit applies to travel within a single
billing to the credit card, which could well be nightly. I think the
maximum travel within London for one day is less than that.

Kevin

In message , at 17:01:02 on
Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf
suggests that TfL are looking to extend Oyster to bus companies
outside London as part of the contactless payment card acceptance
scheme, presumably using the PAYG balance as an e-purse to purchase
the bus companies existing products.

Interesting given the strategy, as recently evidenced to the GLA
transport committee, within London is to move away from Oyster to use
of contactless bank cards and off system settlement / capping. We
also have the DfT funded work to ensure ITSO spec cards can be read by
all TfL oyster readers. You have to wonder quite what it is that
passengers will be expected to have in their wallets in a couple of
years time to use TfL services, NR trains and buses outside London. A
combined contactless bank and ITSO card ?

I expect it'll be the same as happened with other sorts of plastic cards
(including hotel and airline loyalty, various one-organisation age/ID
cards etc) in that we'll have a wallet overflowing with the pesky
things.

I've now got four[1] travel smartcards[2] and I don't predict the number
doing anything but increase

[1] It'd be five[3] if I was still travelling to Amsterdam regularly.
[2] Nottingham Bus
Oyster[4]
Stagecoach (EMT)
Barclaycard Onepulse/Oyster
[3] Or does a Digital Passport count as one as well?
[4] OK, maybe I don't need this, but I can't be bothered to work out how
to transfer the credit to my other one. And it's handy for irregular
travel companions.
--
Roland Perry