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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 01/07/2012 09:27, e27002 wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:29 am, wrote: On 01/07/2012 00:15, Charles Ellson wrote: Network Rail is a State Monopoly in everything but name. The Railways are as Government Controlled as they have ever been. Why would the UK go back to the dark days of British Railways? Better IMO to allow operating companies to buy the infrastructure. Then drop franchising, allow history to take its course (given neccessary regulation and grants for desirable, but loss-making services). Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. -- Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman |
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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? |
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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 02/07/2012 16:19, allantracy wrote:
Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? There is something to what you say. The railways were saved first by compulsory amalgamation in 1925, then by nationalization in 1947, by which time three of the four companies were going out of business. Even Margaret Thatcher stopped short of privatization, being a somewhat cannier Friedmanite than her epigones (I'll give her that much). -- Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman |
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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 3, 8:41*am, Martin Edwards wrote:
On 02/07/2012 16:19, allantracy wrote: Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? There is something to what you say. *The railways were saved first by compulsory amalgamation in 1925, then by nationalization in 1947, by which time three of the four companies were going out of business. *Even Margaret Thatcher stopped short of privatization, being a somewhat cannier Friedmanite than her epigones (I'll give her that much). A major part of the financial problems the railways faced in the 1930s and later was that they were subject to government regulation of passenger fares and freight tarrifs, and subject to common carrier obligations, that were created when the railways were effectively regional monopolies, but that were no longer appropriate when motorised road traffic provided effective competition. Railways could not turn away freight that was expensive to transport (common carrier) and could not price it off (freight rates were controlled by government), nor could they increase rates on what should have been profitable traffic. That's before the lack of payment for wartime traffic loads are considered. Robin |
#5
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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 03/07/2012 11:16, bob wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:41 am, Martin wrote: On 02/07/2012 16:19, allantracy wrote: Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? There is something to what you say. The railways were saved first by compulsory amalgamation in 1925, then by nationalization in 1947, by which time three of the four companies were going out of business. Even Margaret Thatcher stopped short of privatization, being a somewhat cannier Friedmanite than her epigones (I'll give her that much). A major part of the financial problems the railways faced in the 1930s and later was that they were subject to government regulation of passenger fares and freight tarrifs, and subject to common carrier obligations, that were created when the railways were effectively regional monopolies, but that were no longer appropriate when motorised road traffic provided effective competition. Railways could not turn away freight that was expensive to transport (common carrier) and could not price it off (freight rates were controlled by government), nor could they increase rates on what should have been profitable traffic. That's before the lack of payment for wartime traffic loads are considered. Robin I'm sure I knew that a long time ago but thanks for the update. :-) -- Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman |
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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 2, 4:19*pm, allantracy wrote:
Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? Coming from a hard-line marxist the poster's remark is particularly appropriate. Everywhere his philosophy has taken power, death and misery have followed (Russia, the PRC, Cambodia, North Korea, etc., etc.). Perhaps the greatest example of the difference between socialism and freedom is the Korean Peninsula. North of the DMZ is a giant concentration camp. There the people are forced to fawn over their incompetent "leader". Their years pass in hunger and missery. To the south of the DMZ there flourishes a modern nation. The people there enjoy freedom and increasing prosperity. Periodically they elect their leaders. Their goods are a byword for quality around the world. Friedman vs. marx, wow that is a hard choice. |
#7
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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 04:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
77002 wrote: in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? Coming from a hard-line marxist the poster's remark is particularly appropriate. Everywhere his philosophy has taken power, death and misery have followed (Russia, the PRC, Cambodia, North Korea, etc., etc.). Ah , but the traditional lefty get-out clause there would be that the problems in those countries are down to corrupt government. Conveniently forgetting that human nature is a core part of any society and its government. This was something that marx conveniently forgot about in his treatise that assumed people were robotic simpletons all marching to the same tune and all putting the common good above themselves and their familes. Yeah , right. Friedman vs. marx, wow that is a hard choice. Marx is a simple solution to a complex problem and hence doesn't require you to think - that makes it the easy option for braindead left wingers. B2003 |
#8
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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 04:13:38 -0700 (PDT), 77002
wrote: On Jul 2, 4:19*pm, allantracy wrote: Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? Coming from a hard-line marxist the poster's remark is particularly appropriate. Everywhere his philosophy has taken power, death and misery have followed (Russia, the PRC, Cambodia, North Korea, etc., etc.). Perhaps the greatest example of the difference between socialism and freedom is the Korean Peninsula. North of the DMZ is a giant concentration camp. There the people are forced to fawn over their incompetent "leader". Their years pass in hunger and missery. To the south of the DMZ there flourishes a modern nation. Which also got there by methods involving lorry loads of their citizens disappearing overnight and never being seen again as can be found in the more comprehensive commercial photo libraries, e.g. "Suspected South Korean traitors are herded into lorries on their way to execution" in http://avaxnews.com/educative/Korean_War_1.html Neither of the local sides were angels. The people there enjoy freedom and increasing prosperity. Periodically they elect their leaders. Their goods are a byword for quality around the world. Friedman vs. marx, wow that is a hard choice. |
#9
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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 03/07/2012 12:13, 77002 wrote:
On Jul 2, 4:19 pm, wrote: Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? Coming from a hard-line marxist the poster's remark is particularly appropriate. To whom do you refer? Everywhere his philosophy has taken power, death and misery have followed (Russia, the PRC, Cambodia, North Korea, etc., etc.). Perhaps the greatest example of the difference between socialism and freedom is the Korean Peninsula. North of the DMZ is a giant concentration camp. There the people are forced to fawn over their incompetent "leader". Their years pass in hunger and missery. To the south of the DMZ there flourishes a modern nation. The people there enjoy freedom and increasing prosperity. Periodically they elect their leaders. Their goods are a byword for quality around the world. Friedman vs. marx, wow that is a hard choice. This may have been true for a few years while the state protected nascent industries, but the "free" market system has now been imposed and the Road to Serfdom has been taken. -- Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman |
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