Not just in Britain, then!


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/02/german-fare-dodgers-public-transport

German fare dodgers cause headache for public transport operators

guardian.co.uk, Thursday 2 February 2012 17.10 GMT

Germany's system is built on the obedience of travellers, but online
services to help fare dodgers are changing attitudes

It is one of the things that never fails to amaze visitors to Germany:
how come there are no barriers at tube stations? "It could never work
back home," proclaim tourists from less law-abiding nations, notably
Britain. "No one would bother paying."

About 3.5% of journeys on German public transport are not paid for,
according to statistics from the Association of German Transport
Operators (VDV). In less compliant Berlin, it is 6%. That might not
sound a lot to the cynical visitor, but it's too much for the VDV,
which is demanding harsher punishments for fare dodgers: an increase
in on-the-spot fines from €40 to €60 (£50), and €120 for repeat
offenders.

The association believes the current fine doesn't deter schwarzfahrer
("black riders") who take their chances without a ticket. The €40 fine
equates to 17 journeys in Berlin, where it is sometimes possible to go
for weeks, if not months, without being checked, depending on which
line is used.

The VDV is also outraged at an internet "service" launched in one
German city to help fare dodgers evade ticket inspectors' sporadic
checks. The MVV Blitzer (can't find working web link - KB)warns
passengers in Munich where and when the usually plain-clothed
inspectors are working and what they are wearing.

Oliver Wolff from the VDV is worried that not paying is becoming
socially acceptable in Germany. "It's now got to the point where
potential fare dodgers are organising themselves and helping each
other online. It's this sort of open activity that is making
travelling without a valid ticket seem less harmful," he told the
Süddeutsche Zeitung.

The VDV claims fare dodging costs transport companies up to €250m a
year. A further €100m is spent on ticket inspectors.

Although Germany is generally thought of as an obedient nation,
exceptions do seem to apply on certain issues, especially those to do
with motoring. Radio bulletins regularly include blitzermeldungen
(flash warnings), which tell drivers where speed cameras appear to be
working on any given day.

END QUOTE

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/02/german-fare-dodgers-public-transport

On Feb 3, 12:31*pm, Bruce wrote:

Although Germany is generally thought of as an obedient nation,
exceptions do seem to apply on certain issues, especially those to do
with motoring. Radio bulletins regularly include blitzermeldungen
(flash warnings), which tell drivers where speed cameras appear to be
working on any given day.

And in the UK the authorities often put them on the Web in a kind-of
"fair play" type move.

The Swiss people I talk to are amazed that they do this.

Neil

On Feb 3, 12:31*pm, Bruce wrote:

About 3.5% of journeys on German public transport are not paid for,
according to statistics from the Association of German Transport
Operators (VDV). In less compliant Berlin, it is 6%. That might not
sound a lot to the cynical visitor, but it's too much for the VDV,
which is demanding harsher punishments for fare dodgers: an increase
in on-the-spot fines from €40 to €60 (£50), and €120 for repeat
offenders.

That seems a good idea, so long as some discretion is possible for
genuine cases (e.g. if you forget your personalised[1] season ticket,
and get PFed, you can get the money back against an admin fee).

Generally, in an open system, the PF should be set at a level that
fare dodging doesn't cause a loss to the operator. If that's the
case, they can just stop worrying about it.

[1] Or smartcard, where it is possible to prove that it wasn't used.
That would require touching in to be mandatory even for season
tickets, though, with a PF of some sort (a lesser one, I guess) for
not doing.

Neil

Bruce schrieb:


Not just in Britain, then!

Of course.


It is one of the things that never fails to amaze visitors to Germany:
how come there are no barriers at tube stations? "It could never work
back home," proclaim tourists from less law-abiding nations, notably
Britain. "No one would bother paying."

Similar commentary is issued about unarmed police officers by visitors of
Britain, even if the crime rate at home is similar to Britain's.

But back to the story: Of course they would, if monthly tickets are cheap
and easily available, and the ticket check frequency is high enough.



About 3.5% of journeys on German public transport are not paid for,
according to statistics from the Association of German Transport
Operators (VDV).

Which means: 70 - 75% of the trips are on monthly or similar tickets
anyway, and of the remaining riders, about 15% ride without a ticket.

I would expect a much lower percentage of monthly or similar tickets in
Britain, and thus, a very similar share of fare dodgers.

The main difference is, that our adventurous youngsters are typically
holding a school/education ticket anyway. But transport company managers
or journalists are mentally uncapable of spotting that quite decisive
difference.



In less compliant Berlin, it is 6%.

If the BVG doesn't get its TVMs fixed, I'll be among the 6%. I might ride
with a ticket, normally, but I'm as impatient as other Berliners. While
the user interface of the new units is rather well done, the coin/bill
acceptance units are junk.

As well, the percentage /had to/ rise, following the introduction of
"boarding at the front only" accompanied by the pullback of ticket
inspectors. If the buses are for free, many people might try in the
connecting trains, too, especially if most of their travel is "bus".



That might not
sound a lot to the cynical visitor, but it's too much for the VDV,
which is demanding harsher punishments for fare dodgers: an increase
in on-the-spot fines from €40 to €60 (£50), and €120 for repeat
offenders.

The association believes the current fine doesn't deter schwarzfahrer
("black riders") who take their chances without a ticket.

If those "Schlipse" ("ties") could be bothered to read a book and
comprehend the results of science, they might be interested in the
results of criminology: Main deterrence isn't the punishment, but the
chance to get caught.



The €40 fine
equates to 17 journeys in Berlin, where it is sometimes possible to go
for weeks, if not months, without being checked, depending on which
line is used.

And now we are at the core of the problem. They have cutted into the
costs of ticket inspections, and it didn't work.

What a surprise.

Ticket inspectors are a lot cheaper than a barrier system, but as soon as
you cut them away, too, it doesn't work. That's easily understood by
anybody but beancounters.



The VDV is also outraged at an internet "service" launched in one
German city to help fare dodgers evade ticket inspectors' sporadic
checks. The MVV Blitzer (can't find working web link - KB)

That's because Google tries to outsmart you: Change your preferences to
"German", and you get there as the top hits. I have similar problems
when searching for English terms, created by the attempts of Google to
know my wishes better than me.



The VDV claims fare dodging costs transport companies up to €250m a
year. A further €100m is spent on ticket inspectors.

Spend €200m on ticket inspectors, bring down the rate to 2%. Less than
2% is uneconomic.


Although Germany is generally thought of as an obedient nation,

So Germany has a much lower crime rate than Britain? Or does it just
happen, that the writer couldn't be bothered to check facts?



Hans-Joachim



--
Telekomiker heißen Telekomiker, weil sie ungefragt und unbestellt eine
Sprachbox auf einen FeTap 751-1 aufschalten.

"... dann drücken Sie bitte die Eins." "Hab' ich gemacht..."

On Feb 3, 1:04*pm, Neil Williams wrote:
On Feb 3, 12:31*pm, Bruce wrote:

Although Germany is generally thought of as an obedient nation,
exceptions do seem to apply on certain issues, especially those to do
with motoring. Radio bulletins regularly include blitzermeldungen
(flash warnings), which tell drivers where speed cameras appear to be
working on any given day.

And in the UK the authorities often put them on the Web in a kind-of
"fair play" type move.

The Swiss people I talk to are amazed that they do this.

On the other hand, on our local buses (in CH, any door boarding,
ocasional checks) the company seems to take a very "fair play"
attitude to checks. last time I was on a bus that got checked, the
driver announced on the PA that a check would happen at the next stop
so that anyone without a ticket could buy one from the on board
machine. I am told by others that checkers have been known to get on
and stand around in uniform obviously, waiting for people to go buy
their tickets before starting the check.

Robin

On Feb 3, 4:36*pm, bob wrote:

On the other hand, on our local buses (in CH, any door boarding,
ocasional checks) the company seems to take a very "fair play"
attitude to checks. *last time I was on a bus that got checked, the
driver announced on the PA that a check would happen at the next stop
so that anyone without a ticket could buy one from the on board
machine. *I am told by others that checkers have been known to get on
and stand around in uniform obviously, waiting for people to go buy
their tickets before starting the check.

When I was over in Den Haag for a bit, I found the inspectors normally
just marched anyone who had "forgotten" to validate their
Strippenkaart to the machine to do so, rather than issuing penalties
of any kind.

Neil

If those "Schlipse" ("ties") could be bothered to read a book and
comprehend the results of science, they might be interested in the
results of criminology: Main deterrence isn't the punishment, but the
chance to get caught.

Hear, hear

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On 03/02/2012 14:29, Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:


Although Germany is generally thought of as an obedient nation,

So Germany has a much lower crime rate than Britain? Or does it just
happen, that the writer couldn't be bothered to check facts?

Is says "thought of", not "is".

Britain isn't entirely full of red phone boxes, Routemaster buses and
people drinking tea with the Queen, but a significant number of
outsiders seem to think it is.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Arthur Figgis schrieb:


Britain isn't entirely full of red phone boxes, Routemaster buses and
people drinking tea with the Queen, but a significant number of
outsiders seem to think it is.


In this case, stereotypes are very convenient: If managers of British
transport companies operate at higher cost, it's not their lazyness
or incompetence, or their inability to understand, why it works in
Germany and doesn't in Britain - it's the national character of the
British, which requires operating at a higher cost level! And thus, it's
not the manager's fault!


Hans-Joachim

On 04/02/2012 12:06, Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:
Arthur Figgis schrieb:


Britain isn't entirely full of red phone boxes, Routemaster buses and
people drinking tea with the Queen, but a significant number of
outsiders seem to think it is.


In this case, stereotypes are very convenient: If managers of British
transport companies operate at higher cost, it's not their lazyness
or incompetence, or their inability to understand, why it works in
Germany and doesn't in Britain - it's the national character of the
British, which requires operating at a higher cost level! And thus, it's
not the manager's fault!

But how often does anyone suggest British transport company managers are
*not* incompetent, etc? People have hated railway management and assumed
they are evil since, well, forever.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK