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Underground Maps Unravelled
Maxwell J Roberts, formerly of this parish, has a new-ish book out.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Underground-...pr_product_top I've only seen the cover in the window of the LT Museum, so can't comment. |
Underground Maps Unravelled
Basil Jet wrote on 15 August 2012
15:42:03 ... Maxwell J Roberts, formerly of this parish, has a new-ish book out. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Underground-...pr_product_top I've only seen the cover in the window of the LT Museum, so can't comment. If you scroll down to near the bottom of that Amazon web page, there's a long and enthusiastic review by Douglas Rose of this book, which is, he says, "not a book about Underground maps - the real messages are far wider. The sub-title of the book `Explorations in Information Design' is what it is really about." Sounds interesting, but 45 is a bit steep. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On 2012\08\17 10:42, Richard J. wrote:
Basil Jet wrote on 15 August 2012 15:42:03 ... Maxwell J Roberts, formerly of this parish, has a new-ish book out. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Underground-...pr_product_top I've only seen the cover in the window of the LT Museum, so can't comment. If you scroll down to near the bottom of that Amazon web page, there's a long and enthusiastic review by Douglas Rose of this book, which is, he says, "not a book about Underground maps - the real messages are far wider. The sub-title of the book `Explorations in Information Design' is what it is really about." Sounds interesting, but 45 is a bit steep. As we approach the point where everyone has a smart-phone, we might reach the situation where the cost of designing, printing and distributing the tube-map exceeds its utility, and we might then see the last tube-map. Regular passengers know that certain system breakdowns are best dealt with by leaving the system and getting a bus, and there's just no way that static information design can encapsulate all the information that you really need to use the tube system. Any organisation should be embarrassed to be displaying information which is inferior to what people have on a device in their pocket made by someone else. Also, the current system of having enamel maps down on the platforms telling you what tracks have been built, and paper maps on an easel up in the ticket office telling you what tracks actually have trains on them today, is a bit of an anachronism. |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:53:55 +0100
Basil Jet wrote: As we approach the point where everyone has a smart-phone, we might Who is "everyone"? I don't, most of my family don't, a lot of my friends don't. Don't confuse teenagers and hipsters with "everyone". by someone else. Also, the current system of having enamel maps down on the platforms telling you what tracks have been built, and paper maps on Are you trolling? Are you seriously suggesting that having to find a website or app then starting it up and trying to view it on a tinky winky 4 inch screen is easier than just looking at a huge metre square map on a wall? I don't want to be in the position of having to purchase some overpriced iToy that I don't need just to be able to get basic information in a city. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
wrote:
Are you trolling? Are you seriously suggesting that having to find a website or app then starting it up and trying to view it on a tinky winky 4 inch screen is easier than just looking at a huge metre square map on a wall? I don't want to be in the position of having to purchase some overpriced iToy that I don't need just to be able to get basic information in a city. Perhaps borrow one for a bit. I said a while ago that journey planners were the best thing that ever happened to public transport. Add a smartphone, and it truly is a "killer app". Try it before you reject the idea totally. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On 20 Aug 2012 09:59:13 GMT
Neil Williams wrote: Perhaps borrow one for a bit. I said a while ago that journey planners were the best thing that ever happened to public transport. Add a smartphone, and it truly is a "killer app". Try it before you reject the idea totally. I'm not buying a smartphone just to read a map. Navigating a metro system is hardly rocket science. A map on a wall is all anyone needs unless they're terminally stupid and need to be spoon fed even the simplest information. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Aug 20, 11:22*am, wrote:
I'm not buying a smartphone just to read a map. Navigating a metro system is hardly rocket science. A map on a wall is all anyone needs unless they're terminally stupid and need to be spoon fed even the simplest information. Boltar I don't always agree with your sentiments, but in this case I think you are right. Relatively speaking, it is cheap and easy for maps to be posted up on the walls in various strategic places (platforms, for example), where a quick glance "I need to go down there a bit, then over there a bit" tells the traveller enough. By all means have a technological solution *as well*, but not *instead*. PhilD -- |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On 20/08/2012 20:14, PhilD wrote:
On Aug 20, 11:22 am, wrote: I'm not buying a smartphone just to read a map. Navigating a metro system is hardly rocket science. A map on a wall is all anyone needs unless they're terminally stupid and need to be spoon fed even the simplest information. Boltar I don't always agree with your sentiments, but in this case I think you are right. Relatively speaking, it is cheap and easy for maps to be posted up on the walls in various strategic places (platforms, for example), where a quick glance "I need to go down there a bit, then over there a bit" tells the traveller enough. That works if there is a turn-up and go service everywhere, or the map shows details like "runs every half hour", "match days only", "no service on St Fred's day", etc, and the passenger has a way of finding out when those things are. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:40:23 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote: various GLA members to the cut backs in bus stop Countdown displays. The official answer was "people can use their phones or PCs". However a text message for Countdown costs 12p a go which is ridiculous. Its a bit like the nonsense with phone parking. You can end up paying almost as much for the phone call as the ticket. Its just another money making scam and if transport information was only made available online you can bet that eventually a small "administration" charge would be made one way or another. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 07:57:59 +0100
Arthur Figgis wrote: I don't always agree with your sentiments, but in this case I think you are right. Relatively speaking, it is cheap and easy for maps to be posted up on the walls in various strategic places (platforms, for example), where a quick glance "I need to go down there a bit, then over there a bit" tells the traveller enough. That works if there is a turn-up and go service everywhere, or the map Is there a metro system in the world that isn't turn up and go? B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
wrote:
Is there a metro system in the world that isn't turn up and go? Merseyrail on a Sunday. The S Bahn Stuttgart. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On 21 Aug 2012 09:18:26 GMT
Neil Williams wrote: wrote: Is there a metro system in the world that isn't turn up and go? Merseyrail on a Sunday. The S Bahn Stuttgart. Are you suggesting you have to book in advance to use these systems on a sunday? Excuse me if I'm not convinced. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
wrote:
Are you suggesting you have to book in advance to use these systems on a sunday? Excuse me if I'm not convinced. No, but I am suggesting that they operate relatively infrequent services on a half hourly base which unless you have lots of time in your hands requires the use of a timetable or journey planner, not just a map. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On 21 Aug 2012 09:29:39 GMT
Neil Williams wrote: wrote: Are you suggesting you have to book in advance to use these systems on a sunday? Excuse me if I'm not convinced. No, but I am suggesting that they operate relatively infrequent services on a half hourly base which unless you have lots of time in your hands requires the use of a timetable or journey planner, not just a map. A half hourly basis isn't that bad for those systems on a sunday given they're suburban rail systems and not really metros at all. On average you'll only be waiting 15 mins. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
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Underground Maps Unravelled
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Underground Maps Unravelled
On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:40:50 +0100
David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 08:36:50AM +0000, d wrote: Basil Jet wrote: As we approach the point where everyone has a smart-phone, we might Who is "everyone"? I don't, most of my family don't, a lot of my friends don't. Don't confuse teenagers and hipsters with "everyone". The key word "approach" should have told you that we're not there yet. And what makes you think we will get there? Just because smartphones are the techno fashion du jour at the moment doesn't mean they will be in 10 years time. Something else will probably have come along by then to part the drooling sheeple from their money. And this is obviously for values of "everyone" which deliberately doesn't consider the vanishingly small population of digital refuseniks, You seem to be implying that not buying a smartphone is some kind of social or political statement rather than the simple fact that some of us simply don't need or want one and therefor don't see any reason to buy one. I don't have a home surround sound system or the latest core i7 PC for the same reason - does that also make me a "refusenik" in your eyes? who will be economically and socially irrelevant just like those who If you need to have a smartphone to be socially relevant then there's something seriously wrong with your social life and probably social skills. Though I imagine for anyone who suffers from aspergers or similar problems they're a godsend. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
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Underground Maps Unravelled
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 09:40:23PM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
Wi-fi would need to be completely free and available everywhere on the network before you could contemplate using a phone. Or use 3G/EDGE/GPRS. You need to figure out your route before going to the platform anyway - after all, if you don't do that, you won't know which station to start at or which line you want. And you might find that you're better taking a bus. Provided that you sort it out in advance with your cellco it need not be expensive even when you're abroad. -- David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age One person can change the world, but most of the time they shouldn't -- Marge Simpson |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:57:15 +0100
David Cantrell wrote: If you'd actually used a journey planner, you would know that you are talking about something completely different. A mere map can't include all the buses, or know how frequent they are, and how frequent all the trains are, or which lines are open, and so be able to find the best route for you across all modes of transport and tell you how long it'll take (kinda important for when you have to get from your hotel to the station to get your train home), taking into account your preferences for number of changes, how far to walk etc. You're assuming any information you'll get on your phone will be up to date. Having used travel websites myself I suspect the chances of that always being the case are slim. Add to that travelling in a foreign country, where you might not be able to read things like "this station is closed at weekends" or "北京地铁", and you will see that an application running on your phone in your language is clearly better than a map. Fine, but that means you're relying on a device that could be lost, stolen, have no connection or a flat battery. Then what? Pidgin english with the nearest local who looks like he might know when the next bus shows? B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
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Underground Maps Unravelled
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:30:13 +0100
David Cantrell wrote: Fine, but that means you're relying on a device that could be lost That's your own stupid fault stolen, As is that, usually. Thats as maybe, but given that the original suggestion was to replace maps etc with apps on a smartphone then this has to be taken into account. have no connection Not likely in any place with a significant transport network. It might not be down to lack of a network but lack of a roaming agreement with your phone company. Also if they only offer 2G then good luck with using anything web based and assuming free wifi will always be available as an alternative is assuming rather a lot. I forget when was the last time I was foolish enough to let my phone's battery run out when I needed it. Years ago, at any rate. If you use smartphones a lot the battery can go within a day which isn't much use if you're spending the day away from the hotel. Unless you carry the charger and adaptor everywhere you go and hope you can find a socket somewhere. degree. It won't work when a Chinese tourist who doesn't speak English is lost in London, where no-one (yeah, yeah) speaks Chinese. If someone visits a country that doesn't speak a language they know and they don't even bother to learn basic emergency phrases in the local lingo then more fool them. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
wrote:
If you use smartphones a lot the battery can go within a day which isn't much use if you're spending the day away from the hotel. I charge mine every night, but it rarely if ever needs more. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:29:34 +0100
David Cantrell wrote: price of manufacturing smartphones is dropping quickly (retail price, unsubsidised, has already dropped from hundreds of pounds to tens of pounds), Depends. You can pick up some old symbian stuff for 90 quid but thats about as low as it goes at the moment. Once almost everyone can afford a smartphone, or they start being given away "for free" with a phone contract, the cost of manufacturing There are not being given away and they're not free as you well know or you wouldn't have put it in quotes. Contracts cost a fortune and they get the full retail price of the phone back and then some over the period. tiny numbers of dumbphones for the handful of weirdos who still want one will increase because there will be no economies of scale. I think you'll find dumbphones are still pretty popular in many parts of the world where basic communication, reliability and a long battery life is more important than playing Angry Birds. Not only that, not everyone wants to carry around a phone with the profile of a small brick. A lot of smartphones are like going on a trip back to the early 90s in size. Already a quarter of adults have a smartphone and half of all teenagers. Got a link for that? It won't be long before it's hard to buy a dumbphone. At which point, yes, not having a smartphone will indeed be a statement. Only in your mind. You seem to be unable to distinguish between a making a statement and complete indifference. or the latest core i7 PC for the same reason - does that also make me a "refusenik" in your eyes? Not having a computer of any kind would. Why would it? Its quite possible to live without one. I couldn't because I work in IT but I can quite see how others could. with you. If you choose not to be able to interact and take part in activities in ways that people think are normal and convenient, then Facebook & twitter are not activities. Meeting down a pub or playing sports is an activity. The former are poor facsimiles of a social life for losers who don't actually have one. And to be bring us back to what started you off on your foolish Luddite Luddite? Having a smartphone seems to mean a lot to you, perhaps its a sort of crutch or comfort blanket for some insecurities or inadequacies you have in your social or professional life because it gives you the illusion of connection. Either way you seem unable to comprehend why others may not give a **** about owning an over priced hand held computer with no keyboard. Which is your problem, not theirs. which are the top three categories of paid-for content/applications on phones? They a * games Don't care, I'm not 15. * music Don't care. * travel Can use a proper computer for that or visit a travel agents. That really the best you've got? with a dumbphone. The people have spoken. No, you have spoken and I suspect your apparent addiction to tech like any addiction makes your judgement unreliable at the best of times. If poking and prodding your iToy all the time like a wired up lab rat makes you happy then good for you. For others like me I'm afraid you come across as just a little bit sad. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On 22 Aug 2012 11:15:55 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:
wrote: If you use smartphones a lot the battery can go within a day which isn't much use if you're spending the day away from the hotel. I charge mine every night, but it rarely if ever needs more. I need about two and half charges a day on my Samsung Galaxy S II, so I carry extra batteries and have a separate battery charger. Problem solved. -- jhk |
Underground Maps Unravelled
In article ,
d wrote: On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:29:34 +0100 David Cantrell wrote: price of manufacturing smartphones is dropping quickly (retail price, unsubsidised, has already dropped from hundreds of pounds to tens of pounds), Depends. You can pick up some old symbian stuff for 90 quid but thats about as low as it goes at the moment. 10 seconds on amzazon found (I literally searched for android 3g phone and picked, I think, the thrid option) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unlocked-Qua...dp/B008ITLOB4/ Which is (just!) below a hundred quid. I expect some slightly more dedicated searching will find something cheaper. I think you'll find dumbphones are still pretty popular in many parts of the world where basic communication, reliability and a long battery life is more important than playing Angry Birds. Indeed; I have one myself for the battery life and small size. And a smartphone. Horses for courses, innit? -- Mike Bristow |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 15:57:10 +0200
Jarle H Knudsen wrote: On 22 Aug 2012 11:15:55 GMT, Neil Williams wrote: wrote: If you use smartphones a lot the battery can go within a day which isn't much use if you're spending the day away from the hotel. I charge mine every night, but it rarely if ever needs more. I need about two and half charges a day on my Samsung Galaxy S II, so I carry extra batteries and have a separate battery charger. Problem solved. Meanwhile my Nokia dumbphone will go a week on a single charge in normal use. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 15:04:09 +0100
Mike Bristow wrote: Which is (just!) below a hundred quid. I expect some slightly more dedicated searching will find something cheaper. For 2nd hand stuff almost certainly. For new stuff from a well known manufacturer, maybe, maybe not. Indeed; I have one myself for the battery life and small size. And a smartphone. Horses for courses, innit? Apart from not needing one the other main reason I don't have a smartphone is size. I don't want to go back to a 1990s style brick in my pocket. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On 22/08/2012 14:04, d wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:29:34 +0100 David Cantrell wrote: price of manufacturing smartphones is dropping quickly (retail price, unsubsidised, has already dropped from hundreds of pounds to tens of pounds), Depends. You can pick up some old symbian stuff for 90 quid but thats about as low as it goes at the moment. So this article is a complete work of fabrication and lies: http://www.reghardware.com/2012/08/2...ndroid_phones/ |
Underground Maps Unravelled
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Underground Maps Unravelled
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
... In message , at 08:50:24 on Tue, 21 Aug 2012, d remarked: That works if there is a turn-up and go service everywhere, or the map Is there a metro system in the world that isn't turn up and go? When does that kick in... 4tph? I'm sure we can find a 3tph Metro. In another thread, boltar is complaining that the ELL cannot be considered turn up and go because the trains don't run every 1-2mins, that's about 40 tph. I doubt 4 tph is going to cut it with boltar... Paul S |
Underground Maps Unravelled
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On 22 Aug 2012 11:15:55 GMT, Neil Williams wrote: wrote: If you use smartphones a lot the battery can go within a day which isn't much use if you're spending the day away from the hotel. I charge mine every night, but it rarely if ever needs more. I need about two and half charges a day on my Samsung Galaxy S II, so I carry extra batteries and have a separate battery charger. Problem solved. I found my HTC smartphone needed more than one charge a day so I bought an aftermarket battery with 50% more capacity which, although slightly bigger, still just fits in the battery compartment. It gave the phone the extra time needed so I only charged it once a day. But what made the biggest difference was upgrading the Google OS to 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich. Power management is much better and I can get two days out of one charge as long as I avoid a couple of apps that are particularly power hungry. |
Underground Maps Unravelled
David Cantrell wrote i
This is obvious. If you try to buy a *really* dumb phone, of the sort that was common a decade ago - a Nokia 6310i, for example - you just can't. It doesn't matter that there's still a small market for them, they're just not made any more. You may have to buy a ruggedised phone ? But some people need phones with no camera because they visit or work in places where no such devices get past the security perimeter and have been able to find them. -- Mike D |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:50:50 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 08:50:24 on Tue, 21 Aug 2012, d remarked: That works if there is a turn-up and go service everywhere, or the map Is there a metro system in the world that isn't turn up and go? When does that kick in... 4tph? I'm sure we can find a 3tph Metro. I think I can do a bit better than that. The Summer timetable on the "metro" in Palma (Mallorca) is a whole *1* tph. The usual service is 4 tph with 2 tph for the first and last hour, and half that at weekends. Just shows that it is only really there for the university. Richard. |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On 21/08/2012 10:18, Neil Williams wrote:
wrote: Is there a metro system in the world that isn't turn up and go? Merseyrail on a Sunday. The S Bahn Stuttgart. You might have had a fair wait at Shoreditch if you weren't careful. I'm pretty certain events-only stations exist at places like sports stadia. I think Ulm has a tram branch to a conference centre. Depending what counts as a metro, I think there are S-bahn branded rail services which are hourly, perhaps even every 2 h, which might catch out someone who is used to a Berlin-style operation. Southern "metro" services to Epsom Downs are hourly, although I'm not sure I have ever heard anyone outside Southern use the term. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On 2012-08-22, David Cantrell wrote:
... There are a handful of members who don't have email, but that handful was deemed to not be important enough to justify the costs of catering to their choice of not having email. Discrimination, pure and simple. They are saying "we don't care who you are or how long you've been here or what contribution you have made or could make, if you don't have email we don't care about you". Nice. Not having email is not necessarily a matter of choice. Eric -- ms fnd in a lbry |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:30:04 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote: On 22/08/2012 14:04, d wrote: On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:29:34 +0100 David Cantrell wrote: price of manufacturing smartphones is dropping quickly (retail price, unsubsidised, has already dropped from hundreds of pounds to tens of pounds), Depends. You can pick up some old symbian stuff for 90 quid but thats about as low as it goes at the moment. So this article is a complete work of fabrication and lies: http://www.reghardware.com/2012/08/2...ndroid_phones/ Fair enough, I was just going by what I'd seen in some phone shops recently when the wife was looking for something. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:18:05 +0100
"Paul Scott" wrote: In another thread, boltar is complaining that the ELL cannot be considered turn up and go because the trains don't run every 1-2mins, that's about 40 tph. I doubt 4 tph is going to cut it with boltar... Not really. Though the utterly hopeless service to JFK airport on the NYC subway probably had something similar though its been years since I've been there so maybe its improved. B2003 |
Underground Maps Unravelled
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 20:08:05 +0100
Richard wrote: The Summer timetable on the "metro" in Palma (Mallorca) is a whole *1* tph. The usual service is 4 tph with 2 tph for the first and last hour, and half that at weekends. Just shows that it is only really there for the university. Given its a small town on a small island that really has no business having a metro in the first place I'll let them off. Still, its nice to see where spain wasted all its euros. Another good example is the Bulnes Funicular in the picos europa. Its entirely underground, must have cost a bloody fortune to build since its all tunnelled through granite and runs from nowhere to a small village consisting of 2 cafes and 3 donkeys. Its not even a skiing area so they can't even get their money back in winter. Unbelievable. Nice ride though! B2003 |
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