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Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
Steam train back on tube track for 150-year anniversary celebrations
Test run for London Underground's anniversary sees restored locomotive pull Victorian carriage from Earl's Court to Moorgate Gwyn Topham, transport correspondent The Guardian, Sunday 16 December 2012 19.00 GMT Any bleary-eyed Londoner overlooking exposed stretches of the District or Circle lines in the small hours of Sunday must have pinched themselves. For the first time in more than 100 years, a steam train was carrying passengers on the tube. In a test run for London Underground's 150-year anniversary celebrations, a restored original locomotive hauled a Victorian first-class carriage – all wood and gas light fittings – from Earl's Court to Moorgate, billowing clouds through the capital's oldest tunnels. As on the very first journey in 1863, railwaymen, enthusiasts and a few dignitaries and press were aboard. But this time an audience of overnight tube maintenance workers in orange hi-vis jackets were lining the route with cameraphones at the ready. Riding inside the restored Metropolitan 353 carriage was Peter Hendy, the commissioner of Transport for London, a key player in making this bizarre vision a reality. "This is the advantage of having your own railway – you don't have to ask permission," he said. The event has been three years in the making, via fundraising campaigns, a lottery grant, and painstaking restoration of the teak carriage's crimson upholstered seats, large windows, leather panels and gas light fittings – the height of Victorian luxury in 1892, before it lapsed into less exalted use. "This was a chicken coop in a farmyard," Hendy marvelled, before -- ignoring the safety briefing of five minutes earlier -- pulling down the windows to appreciatively sniff in the smoke as if sampling a Havana cigar. The original plan was for a "light steam" simulation -- where an electric locomotive did the pushing -- but TfL insisted on "doing it properly" with a full working locomotive, which burned approximately one tonne of coal for Sunday morning's journey. Not everything went smoothly -- a valve that blew at Baker Street rendered much of the station invisible from the carriage. A soaked, sooty and bedraggled -- but delighted -- station supervisor eventually appeared through the clouds to help wave the party on. The weekend's recreation followed some of the route of the world's first underground journey, from Paddington to Farringdon on 9 January 1863. With familiar echoes of modern grand construction projects such as Crossrail, it took a decade of lobbying before parliamentary assent was given for the tube in 1854, and construction only started in 1860. Three years of blight and construction noise followed, the worst of it in Euston Road, a stone's throw from the site of the planned demolition of Camden housing estates for High Speed 2 being fought over in the high court. The underground opened to the public at 6am the following day -- early enough, as the Observer reported, to "accommodate workmen, and there was a goodly muster of that class of the public, who availed themselves of the advantages of the line in reaching their respective employment". By 8am there was a first morning rush-hour crush, with would-be commuters unable to board at King's Cross. Even on day one, some employed the commuter trick of travelling a stop outwards in order to get a space for the journey in. The Observer of 1863 was impressed by the "general comfort", noting that the "novel introduction of gas [lighting] into the carriages is calculated to dispel any unpleasant feelings which passengers, especially ladies, might entertain against riding for so long a distance through a tunnel". While the steam-powered trains are an immense draw now -- £180 seats on January's celebratory services sold by the London Transport Museum went instantly -- passengers on the original underground trains were not so keen, complaining about the "sulphurous atmosphere" in the tube. Electric alternatives were pioneered in the later Victorian era, and the last regular steam services ended in 1905. Now, as part of a series of exhibitions and events for the anniversary, the public can witness this extraordinary spectacle again next year. From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...ry?INTCMP=SRCH |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
Recliner wrote on 17 December 2012 11:08:58 ...
Steam train back on tube track for 150-year anniversary celebrations Test run for London Underground's anniversary sees restored locomotive pull Victorian carriage from Earl's Court to Moorgate Gwyn Topham, transport correspondent The Guardian, Sunday 16 December 2012 19.00 GMT [snip] From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...ry?INTCMP=SRCH There's another great photo in the Standard's report at http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trans...e-8422132.html -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
"Richard J." wrote:
Recliner wrote on 17 December 2012 11:08:58 ... Steam train back on tube track for 150-year anniversary celebrations Test run for London Underground's anniversary sees restored locomotive pull Victorian carriage from Earl's Court to Moorgate Gwyn Topham, transport correspondent The Guardian, Sunday 16 December 2012 19.00 GMT [snip] From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...ry?INTCMP=SRCH There's another great photo in the Standard's report at http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trans...e-8422132.html Interesting that neither piece criticised the £180 price (unlike many of the posters here). |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 17 Dec, 13:46, "Richard J." wrote:
Recliner wrote on 17 December 2012 11:08:58 ... Steam train back on tube track for 150-year anniversary celebrations Test run for London Underground's anniversary sees restored locomotive pull Victorian carriage from Earl's Court to Moorgate Gwyn Topham, transport correspondent The Guardian, Sunday 16 December 2012 19.00 GMT [snip] From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...ndon-undergrou... There's another great photo in the Standard's report athttp://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/full-circle-120yearold-steam... -- Which section was tube track? AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. The tube lines were electric from their beginning. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
In article ,
e27002 wrote: On 17 Dec, 13:46, "Richard J." wrote: Recliner wrote on 17 December 2012 11:08:58 ... Steam train back on tube track for 150-year anniversary celebrations [snip] From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...ndon-undergrou... There's another great photo in the Standard's report athttp://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/full-circle-120yearold-steam... -- Which section was tube track? AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. The tube lines were electric from their beginning. It's a colloquialism. We use them in this country. Nick -- "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18 Dec, 08:50, Nick Leverton wrote:
In article , e27002 wrote: On 17 Dec, 13:46, "Richard J." wrote: Recliner wrote on 17 December 2012 11:08:58 ... Steam train back on tube track for 150-year anniversary celebrations [snip] From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...ndon-undergrou.... There's another great photo in the Standard's report athttp://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/full-circle-120yearold-steam.... -- Which section was tube track? *AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. *Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. *The tube lines were electric from their beginning. It's a colloquialism. Indeed so. It dates back to the opening of London’s deep level lines bored thru London Clay. In 1900 the Central London Railway was opened and became known as the 'Tuppenny Tube'. This of course was because of its price and the shape of the bored tunnels. At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. The tube routes should never be confused with the earlier sub surface lines. Although I guess we should not be surprised that this is lost on the bourgeois communists at the Guardian. We use them in this country. Of course, but given that misc.transport.urban-transit is an international group, you might want to name the country in question. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 04:17:44 -0800, 77002 wrote:
At 2d (a little under 0.5p) pedant a little OVER 0.5p - 240 d to the £ /pedant -- Alex |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
In article
, 77002 wrote: ... At 2d (a little under 0.5p) ... Ahem. 1p = 2.4d, 2d = 0.83p. Sam (who remembers 1971 surprisingly well, or thinks he does) -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18 Dec, 12:22, Sam Wilson wrote:
In article , *77002 wrote: ... *At 2d (a little under 0.5p) ... Ahem. *1p = 2.4d, *2d = 0.83p. Sam (who remembers 1971 surprisingly well, or thinks he does) Thank you Sam. Therefore 1d = 0.415p or a little under 0.5. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
"77002" wrote in message
...In 1900 the Central London Railway was opened and became known as the 'Tuppenny Tube'. This of course was because of its price and the shape of the bored tunnels. At 2d (a little under 0.5p)... fx: showing my age Actually, 1p = 2.4d, so 2d is "a little under 1p" :-) /fx -- MatSav |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18 Dec, 12:24, 77002 wrote:
On 18 Dec, 12:22, Sam Wilson wrote: In article , *77002 wrote: ... *At 2d (a little under 0.5p) ... Ahem. *1p = 2.4d, *2d = 0.83p. Sam (who remembers 1971 surprisingly well, or thinks he does) Thank you Sam. *Therefore 1d = 0.415p or a little under 0.5. And of course you are all correct tuppence is OVER 0.5. Doh. Thank you for the corrections. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
In message
, at 04:17:44 on Tue, 18 Dec 2012, 77002 remarked: At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. The thisismoney inflation calculator puts 2d in 1990 as 84p in 2012. Measuringworth.com says 70p using RPI and £2.88 using average earnings. -- Roland Perry |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 04:17:44 -0800 (PST), 77002
wrote: On 18 Dec, 08:50, Nick Leverton wrote: In article , e27002 wrote: On 17 Dec, 13:46, "Richard J." wrote: Recliner wrote on 17 December 2012 11:08:58 ... Steam train back on tube track for 150-year anniversary celebrations [snip] From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...ndon-undergrou... There's another great photo in the Standard's report athttp://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/full-circle-120yearold-steam... -- Which section was tube track? *AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. *Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. *The tube lines were electric from their beginning. It's a colloquialism. Indeed so. It dates back to the opening of London’s deep level lines bored thru London Clay. In 1900 the Central London Railway was opened and became known as the 'Tuppenny Tube'. This of course was because of its price and the shape of the bored tunnels. At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. The tube routes should never be confused with the earlier sub surface lines. Not being a Londoner, perhaps you aren't aware that most people refer to the whole system as 'The Tube'? |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18 Dec, 12:39, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 04:17:44 on Tue, 18 Dec 2012, 77002 remarked: At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. The thisismoney inflation calculator puts 2d in 1990 as 84p in 2012. Measuringworth.com says 70p using RPI and 2.88 using average earnings. 1900 Mr Perry. I went and ran the calculation. Useful link. Thank you. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18 Dec, 13:40, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:47:20 -0800 (PST), e27002 wrote: On 17 Dec, 13:46, "Richard J." wrote: Recliner wrote on 17 December 2012 11:08:58 ... Steam train back on tube track for 150-year anniversary celebrations Test run for London Underground's anniversary sees restored locomotive pull Victorian carriage from Earl's Court to Moorgate Gwyn Topham, transport correspondent The Guardian, Sunday 16 December 2012 19.00 GMT [snip] From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...ndon-undergrou.... There's another great photo in the Standard's report athttp://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/full-circle-120yearold-steam... -- Which section was tube track? *AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. *Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. *The tube lines were electric from their beginning. Existing ones might have been, The Tower subway was cable operated. Accepted. And, the cable may have been run thru a stationary steam engine. The power for the electric lines may have been steam generated. But, NO tube lines ever had a steam motive power unit within its consist whilst running in the deep level tunnels. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
77002 wrote:
On 18 Dec, 13:40, wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:47:20 -0800 (PST), e27002 wrote: On 17 Dec, 13:46, "Richard J." wrote: Recliner wrote on 17 December 2012 11:08:58 ... Steam train back on tube track for 150-year anniversary celebrations Test run for London Underground's anniversary sees restored locomotive pull Victorian carriage from Earl's Court to Moorgate Gwyn Topham, transport correspondent The Guardian, Sunday 16 December 2012 19.00 GMT [snip] From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...ndon-undergrou... There's another great photo in the Standard's report athttp://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/full-circle-120yearold-steam... -- Which section was tube track? AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. The tube lines were electric from their beginning. Existing ones might have been, The Tower subway was cable operated. Accepted. And, the cable may have been run thru a stationary steam engine. The power for the electric lines may have been steam generated. But, NO tube lines ever had a steam motive power unit within its consist whilst running in the deep level tunnels. Perfectly true, but this event is to celebrate the opening of the Met in 1863, and that certainly was steam operated. I wonder whether the first Met line trains 150 years ago were also GW broad gauge? I assume they were. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
In article ,
77002 wrote: On 18 Dec, 08:50, Nick Leverton wrote: In article , -- Which section was tube track? *AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. *Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. *The tube lines were electric from their beginning. It's a colloquialism. Indeed so. It dates back to the opening of London’s deep level lines bored thru London Clay. In 1900 the Central London Railway was opened and became known as the 'Tuppenny Tube'. This of course was because of its price and the shape of the bored tunnels. At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. The tube routes should never be confused with the earlier sub surface lines. Although I guess we should not be surprised that this is lost on the bourgeois communists at the Guardian. I must say it's quite entertaining to see the number of irrelevant things you try to blame on politics, such as use of colloquial language. Few ordinary newspaper-reading people on the Clapham omnibus today, whether they read some hard-line authoritarian right-wing Murdoch rag or a slightly liberal middle-of-the-road paper like the Graun, are concerned about the hundred-year-old history of how each individual line was built in order to inform them of what they should be calling it. It's a unified system these days. Unfortunately, when the Underground Group were publicising the Tube back in the first quarter of the last century, they seem to have omitted to tell people that this word wasn't to be used for the sub-surface lines, so now you're stuck with it like it or not. We use them in this country. Of course, but given that misc.transport.urban-transit is an international group, you might want to name the country in question. Of course, my apologies - I'm afraid I didn't spot that you had changed the newsgroups and you seem to have omitted to mention it prior to this also. Nick -- "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
Nick Leverton wrote:
In article , 77002 wrote: On 18 Dec, 08:50, Nick Leverton wrote: In article , -- Which section was tube track? AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. The tube lines were electric from their beginning. It's a colloquialism. Indeed so. It dates back to the opening of LondonÂ’s deep level lines bored thru London Clay. In 1900 the Central London Railway was opened and became known as the 'Tuppenny Tube'. This of course was because of its price and the shape of the bored tunnels. At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. The tube routes should never be confused with the earlier sub surface lines. Although I guess we should not be surprised that this is lost on the bourgeois communists at the Guardian. I must say it's quite entertaining to see the number of irrelevant things you try to blame on politics, such as use of colloquial language. Few ordinary newspaper-reading people on the Clapham omnibus today, whether they read some hard-line authoritarian right-wing Murdoch rag or a slightly liberal middle-of-the-road paper like the Graun, are concerned about the hundred-year-old history of how each individual line was built in order to inform them of what they should be calling it. It's a unified system these days. Unfortunately, when the Underground Group were publicising the Tube back in the first quarter of the last century, they seem to have omitted to tell people that this word wasn't to be used for the sub-surface lines, so now you're stuck with it like it or not. Plus London Underground issue Tube Maps which show the whole system (and the Overground) not just tube shape lines. All of which mean that the notion that steam has been running on the tube really isn't incorrect in modern general language. People think they're being clever when they point this out when in fact they're being utterly boring. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
The tube routes should never be confused with the earlier sub surface lines. *Although I guess we should not be surprised that this is lost on the bourgeois communists at the Guardian. Well seeing as how TfL routinely use the term Tube to describe the London Underground, all over their website (as in Tube map or Tube engineering works), I think we can excuse all the bourgeois communists this time. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
Few ordinary newspaper-reading people on the Clapham omnibus today, whether they read some hard-line authoritarian right-wing Murdoch rag or a slightly liberal middle-of-the-road paper like the Graun, On the whole, Murdoch papers are more liberal right wing (neo-liberal) rather than authoritarian. For authoritarian right wing, you want the Daily Mail. As for the Guardian being middle-of-the-road, you have got to be kidding, they're off the planet 'loony left', right out there with many a Labour council, such as Brent, Islington or Rotherham, all run by the sisters. My other half reads the Guardian, a couple of weeks back, they ran a piece about how wrong it was to buy your kids gender specific toys at Xmas. So I got it in the ear hole for buying one of the nephews Call of Duty Black Ops II for his Xbox, mind you hadn't noticed it was an 18 (he's 14) but it'll do him good. The Guardian or the Modern Parents there's not a lot of difference a lot of the time. Latest today, they're running a piece supporting the idea that all those cookery programs, containing recipes that start take 8 ounces of butter, should go out after the watershed. In Guardian land Nigella is Satan, she'e the daughter of (a not half bad) former Tory chancellor, cooks some f**king gorgeous food (that involves pleasure) and the greatest sin of all she uses ounces. Blimey, that lot fails to tick more than a few boxes, on the PC check list, at the Guardian. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
77002 wrote:
At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. 2d is 0.83p. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18 Dec, 16:13, Anthony Polson wrote:
77002 wrote: At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. 2d is 0.83p. Yes, the good old days. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
Lew 1 wrote:
All of which mean that the notion that steam has been running on the tube really isn't incorrect in modern general language. People think they're being clever when they point this out when in fact they're being utterly boring. They are being utterly boring but *precisely correct*, the latter probably being their sole source of pleasure in life. It therefore seems unkind to deny them this pleasure. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
allantracy wrote:
Few ordinary newspaper-reading people on the Clapham omnibus today, whether they read some hard-line authoritarian right-wing Murdoch rag or a slightly liberal middle-of-the-road paper like the Graun, ..... Latest today, they're running a piece supporting the idea that all those cookery programs, containing recipes that start take 8 ounces of butter, should go out after the watershed. In Guardian land Nigella is Satan, she'e the daughter of (a not half bad) former Tory chancellor, cooks some f**king gorgeous food (that involves pleasure) and the greatest sin of all she uses ounces. Blimey, that lot fails to tick more than a few boxes, on the PC check list, at the Guardian. Do you regard the BMJ as a bunch of commies, too? http://press.psprings.co.uk/bmj/december/chefs.pdf |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 05:51:55 -0800 (PST), 77002 wrote: On 18 Dec, 13:40, wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:47:20 -0800 (PST), e27002 Which section was tube track? AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. The tube lines were electric from their beginning. Existing ones might have been, The Tower subway was cable operated. Accepted. And, the cable may have been run thru a stationary steam engine. The power for the electric lines may have been steam generated. But, NO tube lines ever had a steam motive power unit within its consist whilst running in the deep level tunnels. Not for passenger operation,the Central London Railway had two Hunslets built to tube gauge for maintenance trains. Unfortunately no photo seems to be around on the WWW to link to, In a book I have they look quite smart. Dual fired ,on coal or oil. I wonder if they ever rescued a passenger train? |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:07:50 -0800 (PST)
allantracy wrote: As for the Guardian being middle-of-the-road, you have got to be kidding, they're off the planet 'loony left', right out there with many a Labour council, such as Brent, Islington or Rotherham, all run by the sisters. Not surprising - liberal left politics as a whole is a very female take on the world. Everyone is nice really given a chance, encouragement not punishment, everyone is equal even when clearly they're not, turn the other cheek, we must atone for the sins of our fathers (note - not mothers), etc etc. All very laudable but all very naive. But I wouldn't worry , Guardian readership is in freefall so it won't be around much longer and one can only hope liberal left politics gets buried with it in the dustbin of history where it belongs. B2003 |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
Blimey, that lot fails to tick more than a few boxes, on the PC check list, at the Guardian. Do you regard the BMJ as a bunch of commies, too?http://press.psprings.co.uk/bmj/december/chefs.pdf No they're just fascists that would take away all our personal freedom. They're all in great need of a 'liberal free democracy' awareness course to remind them of the kind of nation that Britain is supposed to be. All this nanny state crap is about protecting the NHS, that can't deliver, even though it's funding has been doubled over the last fifteen years. Of course, it's an entirely misguided short term fix, five years of a nation looking after itself, all tucked up in bed by 7:30, and the NHS wouldn't know what's hit it, once we all started living five years longer. Compounded by all the lost nanny state tax revenue on booze and fags. The BMJ should be very careful what they wish for. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
"Recliner" wrote I wonder whether the first Met line trains 150 years ago were also GW broad gauge? I assume they were. Yes. The Met was built as mixed gauge from Paddington (Bishop's Road) at least to Farringdon and AFAIK to Moorgate, and was initially (Jan - Aug 1863) worked between Bishop's Road and Farringdon by the GWR using broad gauge stock. The Met fell out with the GWR, who gave 9 days notice that they would cease to work the line after 10 August 1863, but by then the connection with the GNR at Kings Cross had been completed, so the Met began operating the service themselves, using standard gauge stock obtained from the GNR. It's not clear how much the broad gauge was used after this (GWR meat trains to Smithfield, perhaps), though when the Widened Lines were built in 1866, mixed gauge was provided, though it is not known if GWR broad gauge trains ever used the Widened Lines. Peter |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
"Peter Masson" wrote:
"Recliner" wrote I wonder whether the first Met line trains 150 years ago were also GW broad gauge? I assume they were. Yes. The Met was built as mixed gauge from Paddington (Bishop's Road) at least to Farringdon and AFAIK to Moorgate, and was initially (Jan - Aug 1863) worked between Bishop's Road and Farringdon by the GWR using broad gauge stock. The Met fell out with the GWR, who gave 9 days notice that they would cease to work the line after 10 August 1863, but by then the connection with the GNR at Kings Cross had been completed, so the Met began operating the service themselves, using standard gauge stock obtained from the GNR. It's not clear how much the broad gauge was used after this (GWR meat trains to Smithfield, perhaps), though when the Widened Lines were built in 1866, mixed gauge was provided, though it is not known if GWR broad gauge trains ever used the Widened Lines. Thanks, that's what I thought, though I'd forgotten that the Widened Lines were also dual gauge initially. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
|
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18 Dec, 08:18, Anthony Polson wrote:
Lew 1 wrote: All of which mean that the notion that steam has been running on the tube really isn't incorrect in modern general language. People think they're being clever when they point this out when in fact they're being utterly boring. They are being utterly boring but *precisely correct*, the latter probably being their sole source of pleasure in life. It therefore seems unkind to deny them this pleasure. Your post is boringly ad-hominem, not to mention inaccurate. Unusual these days, because you have been posting so much good stuff. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18/12/2012 14:42, Nick Leverton wrote:
In article , 77002 wrote: On 18 Dec, 08:50, Nick Leverton wrote: In article , -- Which section was tube track? AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. The tube lines were electric from their beginning. It's a colloquialism. Indeed so. It dates back to the opening of London’s deep level lines bored thru London Clay. In 1900 the Central London Railway was opened and became known as the 'Tuppenny Tube'. This of course was because of its price and the shape of the bored tunnels. At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. The tube routes should never be confused with the earlier sub surface lines. Although I guess we should not be surprised that this is lost on the bourgeois communists at the Guardian. I must say it's quite entertaining to see the number of irrelevant things you try to blame on politics, such as use of colloquial language. Few ordinary newspaper-reading people on the Clapham omnibus today, whether they read some hard-line authoritarian right-wing Murdoch rag or a slightly liberal middle-of-the-road paper like the Graun, are concerned about the hundred-year-old history of how each individual line was built in order to inform them of what they should be calling it. It's a unified system these days. Unfortunately, when the Underground Group were publicising the Tube back in the first quarter of the last century, they seem to have omitted to tell people that this word wasn't to be used for the sub-surface lines, so now you're stuck with it like it or not. Next think we know people will be claiming there is a difference between locomotive and train, commuter and passenger (or customer), locomotive 4772 and the Scotch express. Popular use is simple - in London you have the Tube and the Overground. Maybe a few adventurous types might know that somewhere in the deep south are strange green things running down the roads. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18 Dec, 06:42, Nick Leverton wrote:
In article , 77002 wrote: On 18 Dec, 08:50, Nick Leverton wrote: In article , -- Which section was tube track? AFIK Earls Court to Moorgate is all sub- surface. Moreover, one cannot bring back something which never existed. The tube lines were electric from their beginning. It's a colloquialism. Indeed so. *It dates back to the opening of London s deep level lines bored thru London Clay. *In 1900 the Central London Railway was opened and became known as the 'Tuppenny Tube'. *This of course was because of its price and the shape of the bored tunnels. *At 2d (a little under 0.5p) the price was actually a little on the high side. The tube routes should never be confused with the earlier sub surface lines. *Although I guess we should not be surprised that this is lost on the bourgeois communists at the Guardian. I must say it's quite entertaining to see the number of irrelevant things you try to blame on politics, such as use of colloquial language. No, I blame them for poor journalism. The fact that they are well to the left is a separate matter Few ordinary newspaper-reading people on the Clapham omnibus today, whether they read some hard-line authoritarian right-wing Murdoch rag or a slightly liberal middle-of-the-road paper like the Graun, are concerned about the hundred-year-old history of how each individual line was built in order to inform them of what they should be calling it. *It's a unified system these days. *Unfortunately, when the Underground Group were publicising the Tube back in the first quarter of the last century, they seem to have omitted to tell people that this word wasn't to be used for the sub-surface lines, so now you're stuck with it like it or not. IIRC The Underground Group advertised its "UndergrounD" system, note the capital "D". We use them in this country. Of course, but given that misc.transport.urban-transit is an international group, you might want to name the country in question. Of course, my apologies Accepted, but not needed. A simple acknowledgement would have been sufficient. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18/12/2012 17:31, Bruce wrote:
On 18/12/2012 16:45, d wrote: But I wouldn't worry , Guardian readership is in freefall so it won't be around much longer and one can only hope liberal left politics gets buried with it in the dustbin of history where it belongs. B2003 Perhaps it is time to change the Guardian's name back to "The Manchester Guardian". Does the Guardian know where Manchester is? Though to be fair to them, it isn't on the Underground map. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
"Peter Masson" wrote:
"Recliner" wrote I wonder whether the first Met line trains 150 years ago were also GW broad gauge? I assume they were. Yes. The Met was built as mixed gauge from Paddington (Bishop's Road) at least to Farringdon and AFAIK to Moorgate, and was initially (Jan - Aug 1863) worked between Bishop's Road and Farringdon by the GWR using broad gauge stock. The Met fell out with the GWR, who gave 9 days notice that they would cease to work the line after 10 August 1863, but by then the connection with the GNR at Kings Cross had been completed, so the Met began operating the service themselves, using standard gauge stock obtained from the GNR. It's not clear how much the broad gauge was used after this (GWR meat trains to Smithfield, perhaps), though when the Widened Lines were built in 1866, mixed gauge was provided, though it is not known if GWR broad gauge trains ever used the Widened Lines. IIRC, the GNR had to make a big effort to have enough condensing locos available to take over the running when the GWR pulled out at short notice. -- Jeremy Double |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On 18 Dec, 07:42, allantracy wrote:
The tube routes should never be confused with the earlier sub surface lines. *Although I guess we should not be surprised that this is lost on the bourgeois communists at the Guardian. Well seeing as how TfL routinely use the term Tube to describe the London Underground, all over their website (as in Tube map or Tube engineering works), I think we can excuse all the bourgeois communists this time. Well Allan, I guess I will have to concede. Although I dislike it when official bodies give in to inaccurate popular culture. Celebrating the new Millenium in 2000 was the biggest example of this in our lifetime. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
In uk.railway wrote:
Not for passenger operation,the Central London Railway had two Hunslets built to tube gauge for maintenance trains. Unfortunately no photo seems to be around on the WWW to link to, In a book I have they look quite smart. Dual fired ,on coal or oil. http://districtdave.proboards.com/in...=2471 &page=1 Theo |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:47:16 -0800 (PST), allantracy
wrote: Blimey, that lot fails to tick more than a few boxes, on the PC check list, at the Guardian. Do you regard the BMJ as a bunch of commies, too?http://press.psprings.co.uk/bmj/december/chefs.pdf No they're just fascists that would take away all our personal freedom. They're all in great need of a 'liberal free democracy' awareness course to remind them of the kind of nation that Britain is supposed to be. All this nanny state crap is about protecting the NHS, that can't deliver, even though it's funding has been doubled over the last fifteen years. Of course, it's an entirely misguided short term fix, five years of a nation looking after itself, all tucked up in bed by 7:30, and the NHS wouldn't know what's hit it, once we all started living five years longer. Compounded by all the lost nanny state tax revenue on booze and fags. Isn't paying for the costs of their activities part of Tory philosophy? The BMJ should be very careful what they wish for. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
Nick Leverton:
It's a unified system these days. Unfortunately, when the Underground Group were publicising the Tube back in the first quarter of the last century, they seem to have omitted to tell people that this word wasn't to be used for the sub-surface lines... Actually, not true. It was the Central London Railway (opened 1900) that first publicized the word "Tube" in a big way, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...%2C_1905.p ng http://rlv.zcache.com/central_london...65_ihk_400.jpg and the point was precisely to differentiate the CLR from the old-fashioned subsurface lines with their tunnels full of smoke. When the three Yerkes tubes opened in 1906 and 1907, they also used the word at first, but by that time the subsurface lines were electric in Central London. When unified maps began to be produced in 1908, the companies *then* decided to standardize on "Underground". With no official use of "tube" for decades and no distinction between steam and electric trains in the tunnels any more, the general public did not maintain the strict use of the word and... now you're stuck with it like it or not. -- Mark Brader, Toronto | "I don't know about your brain, | but mine is really bossy." -- Laurie Anderson My text in this article is in the public domain. |
Not-very dry run for 150-year anniversary Met steam
Well Allan, I guess I will have to concede. Although I dislike it
when official bodies give in to inaccurate popular culture. I hope you don't have too much trouble if you ever have to ask directions to the Baker Street and Waterloo Line trains, then. -- Mark Brader, Toronto | "...blind faith can ruin the eyesight-- | and the perspective." --Robert Ludlum |
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