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Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took
above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded public transport system. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/ Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits. Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses. There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
In message , at 17:12:52 on
Thu, 9 May 2013, Paul Corfield remarked: I'm not sure exactly what mental image I had of Pyongyang but the reality is very different. I was amazed to see the modern apartment blocks. In some respects it reminds me of bits of Eastern Europe when still behind the "Iron Curtain". I recall seeing a posh Western hotel in Sofia with every luxury on displays and the rest of Sofia being decrepit East Berlin was similar. If you could see it from the Wall, it was luxurious, further away quite different. -- Roland Perry |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 2013\05\09 17:21, Roland Perry wrote:
East Berlin was similar. If you could see it from the Wall, it was luxurious, further away quite different. How did they stand to gain from conning the West Germans? And since any West German could get a visa to visit the east, knowledge of the charade must have been common in the West. -- Ukip - Breaking the fungus of British politics |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
In message , at 18:18:24 on
Thu, 9 May 2013, Basil Jet remarked: East Berlin was similar. If you could see it from the Wall, it was luxurious, further away quite different. How did they stand to gain from conning the West Germans? And since any West German could get a visa to visit the east, knowledge of the charade must have been common in the West. I don't know the answer to your questions, just reporting what was there on the ground. -- Roland Perry |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 09 May 2013 13:10:48 +0100, Recliner wrote: Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded public transport system. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/ Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits. Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses. There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking. Another interesting set of photos. I'm not sure exactly what mental image I had of Pyongyang but the reality is very different. I was amazed to see the modern apartment blocks. In some respects it reminds me of bits of Eastern Europe when still behind the "Iron Curtain". I recall seeing a posh Western hotel in Sofia with every luxury on displays and the rest of Sofia being decrepit, public transport creaking at the seams, the Metro nowhere near to completion and next to nothing on sale in any of the shops. I suspect Pyongyang is the same but even more impoverished that Sofia ever was. It does look a very odd place with the wide roads but next to no traffic. I am genuinely surprised that you were as free as you appear to have been to take photos. There seemed to be no restrictions on outdoor filming, and contrary to what I was told before going there, no restrictions on what cameras could be taken into the country. I had thought they may check memory cards, but in fact they showed no interest. Bags were x-rated on entry and exit, but few were opened (mine weren't). In fact, they were so disorganised that they failed to collect my entry customs form and I had to go back and thrust it into their hands. You have to fill in several short English language forms on entry and exit, but I doubt that they get read. There was only one place where cameras were definitely not allowed: the mausoleum for Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il. They make you check in cameras, bags and all the contents of your pockets apart from your wallet (including medicines, keys, pens, etc). This rule is strictly enforced, and they have a separate queue for foreigners who don't understand just how strict they are (locals already know). The mausoleum is in Kim Il-sung's former palace and is enormous, with long moving walkways, escalators, etc (with numerous photos of the two Kims). It even includes two railway carriages (Kim Jong-Il didn't like flying, so he went even very long distance by train). I've not been inside the equivalents in Beijing, Hanoi and Moscow, but I was told by those that have that the huge Pyongyang mausoleum knocks spots off the rest. Locals, usually in groups of work or class mates, turn up very smartly dressed (best shiny business suits or uniforms for men, colourful trad dresses for women), and they also request that foreigners make an effort: men should wear ties, jackets should be closed and no open shoes worn. The reverential locals don't look happy when the often scruffy foreign groups are whisked to the front of the queue. There's a special tram service from the main station to the mausoleum for locals, with seats for everyone (unlike the normal local trams). Foreigners go straight there on their normal tour buses. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 09/05/2013 21:15, Recliner wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote: On Thu, 09 May 2013 13:10:48 +0100, Recliner wrote: Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded public transport system. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/ Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits. Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses. There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking. Another interesting set of photos. I'm not sure exactly what mental image I had of Pyongyang but the reality is very different. I was amazed to see the modern apartment blocks. In some respects it reminds me of bits of Eastern Europe when still behind the "Iron Curtain". I recall seeing a posh Western hotel in Sofia with every luxury on displays and the rest of Sofia being decrepit, public transport creaking at the seams, the Metro nowhere near to completion and next to nothing on sale in any of the shops. I suspect Pyongyang is the same but even more impoverished that Sofia ever was. It does look a very odd place with the wide roads but next to no traffic. I am genuinely surprised that you were as free as you appear to have been to take photos. There seemed to be no restrictions on outdoor filming, and contrary to what I was told before going there, no restrictions on what cameras could be taken into the country. I had thought they may check memory cards, but in fact they showed no interest. Bags were x-rated on entry and exit, but few were opened (mine weren't). In fact, they were so disorganised that they failed to collect my entry customs form and I had to go back and thrust it into their hands. You have to fill in several short English language forms on entry and exit, but I doubt that they get read. There was only one place where cameras were definitely not allowed: the mausoleum for Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il. They make you check in cameras, bags and all the contents of your pockets apart from your wallet (including medicines, keys, pens, etc). This rule is strictly enforced, and they have a separate queue for foreigners who don't understand just how strict they are (locals already know). The mausoleum is in Kim Il-sung's former palace and is enormous, with long moving walkways, escalators, etc (with numerous photos of the two Kims). It even includes two railway carriages (Kim Jong-Il didn't like flying, so he went even very long distance by train). I've not been inside the equivalents in Beijing, Hanoi and Moscow, but I was told by those that have that the huge Pyongyang mausoleum knocks spots off the rest. Locals, usually in groups of work or class mates, turn up very smartly dressed (best shiny business suits or uniforms for men, colourful trad dresses for women), and they also request that foreigners make an effort: men should wear ties, jackets should be closed and no open shoes worn. The reverential locals don't look happy when the often scruffy foreign groups are whisked to the front of the queue. There's a special tram service from the main station to the mausoleum for locals, with seats for everyone (unlike the normal local trams). Foreigners go straight there on their normal tour buses. The tram is Swiss, I have heard. How much is tram fare in Pyongyang, BTW, any idea? |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
" wrote:
On 09/05/2013 21:15, Recliner wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Thu, 09 May 2013 13:10:48 +0100, Recliner wrote: Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded public transport system. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/ Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits. Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses. There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking. Another interesting set of photos. I'm not sure exactly what mental image I had of Pyongyang but the reality is very different. I was amazed to see the modern apartment blocks. In some respects it reminds me of bits of Eastern Europe when still behind the "Iron Curtain". I recall seeing a posh Western hotel in Sofia with every luxury on displays and the rest of Sofia being decrepit, public transport creaking at the seams, the Metro nowhere near to completion and next to nothing on sale in any of the shops. I suspect Pyongyang is the same but even more impoverished that Sofia ever was. It does look a very odd place with the wide roads but next to no traffic. I am genuinely surprised that you were as free as you appear to have been to take photos. There seemed to be no restrictions on outdoor filming, and contrary to what I was told before going there, no restrictions on what cameras could be taken into the country. I had thought they may check memory cards, but in fact they showed no interest. Bags were x-rated on entry and exit, but few were opened (mine weren't). In fact, they were so disorganised that they failed to collect my entry customs form and I had to go back and thrust it into their hands. You have to fill in several short English language forms on entry and exit, but I doubt that they get read. There was only one place where cameras were definitely not allowed: the mausoleum for Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il. They make you check in cameras, bags and all the contents of your pockets apart from your wallet (including medicines, keys, pens, etc). This rule is strictly enforced, and they have a separate queue for foreigners who don't understand just how strict they are (locals already know). The mausoleum is in Kim Il-sung's former palace and is enormous, with long moving walkways, escalators, etc (with numerous photos of the two Kims). It even includes two railway carriages (Kim Jong-Il didn't like flying, so he went even very long distance by train). I've not been inside the equivalents in Beijing, Hanoi and Moscow, but I was told by those that have that the huge Pyongyang mausoleum knocks spots off the rest. Locals, usually in groups of work or class mates, turn up very smartly dressed (best shiny business suits or uniforms for men, colourful trad dresses for women), and they also request that foreigners make an effort: men should wear ties, jackets should be closed and no open shoes worn. The reverential locals don't look happy when the often scruffy foreign groups are whisked to the front of the queue. There's a special tram service from the main station to the mausoleum for locals, with seats for everyone (unlike the normal local trams). Foreigners go straight there on their normal tour buses. The tram is Swiss, I have heard. How much is tram fare in Pyongyang, BTW, any idea? No, but I wonder how they collect a fare on trams that crowded? Many of them have a trailer car, and I saw no sign of conductors. If there is a fare at all, they must depend on passengers' honesty to pay it, perhaps reinforced by draconian penalties on fare dodgers who get caught. The Metro fare is 5 won, so trams must be no more than that. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 2013\05\09 21:15, Recliner wrote:
snip Thanks for all of this! -- Ukip - Breaking the fungus of British politics |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On Thu, 09 May 2013 16:19:24 -0500
Recliner wrote: No, but I wonder how they collect a fare on trams that crowded? Many of them have a trailer car, and I saw no sign of conductors. If there is a fare at all, they must depend on passengers' honesty to pay it, perhaps reinforced by draconian penalties on fare dodgers who get caught. The Metro fare is 5 won, so trams must be no more than that. If its anything like Ukraine then there's either a conductor wandering around or you have to pay the driver directly in which case its based on honesty since you can board on all doors. I've seen the Ukrainian ticket inspectors and you REALLY don't want to **** with them. There's no polite lady inspector saying "excuse me Sir, you will have to pay a penalty fare" over there. These are huge guys - probably ex military or police - in groups of 3 or 4 who don't look like they'll take "nyet" for an answer. NJR |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
|
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 09/05/2013 17:44, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2013 17:21:07 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: East Berlin was similar. If you could see it from the Wall, it was luxurious, further away quite different. I know. I got behind the Wall while it was still intact and also visited not long after transit restrictions were considerably relaxed. Unter den Linden was, as you say, pretty "up market" in an East German way. Further east had the statues of Lenin and tanks as public monuments and the brutalist housing estates. A very strange, but worthwhile, experience. How unlike our own Whitehall and (some random council estate).... -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 09/05/2013 13:10, Recliner wrote: Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded public transport system. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/ Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits. Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses. There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking. V interesting stuff. Do you know what the logic was in banning bicycles (until recently) in Pyongyang? The regime fearful of the city masses having independent mobility perhaps. The photo of the pedestrians dutifully using the bridges over the lightly-trafficked road intersection rather than just walking on the flat particularly struck me. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 2013\05\12 12:38, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
Basil Jet wrote in : And since any West German could get a visa to visit the east, knowledge of the charade must have been common in the West. Not very many West Germans took the opportunity. Blixa Bargeld was asked in 1985 if he'd ever been to the other side and he said "Yes, many times. Oh, the other side of Berlin... no." To be fair to the Ossi's, TPTB in Britain think that the parts of Britain seen by tourists have to be pretty, but the rest of it can look like hell. -- Ukip - Breaking the fungus of British politics |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
Mizter T wrote:
On 09/05/2013 13:10, Recliner wrote: Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded public transport system. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/ Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits. Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses. There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking. V interesting stuff. Do you know what the logic was in banning bicycles (until recently) in Pyongyang? The regime fearful of the city masses having independent mobility perhaps. I can only speculate about the cycle ban in Pyongyang, as there doesn't seem to be any official information. It didn't apply outside the capital, so I don't think it was about restricting mobility (which the regime does using other means, in any case -- there are regular police road blocks on the highways, checking that people are not moving outside their permitted areas, and all non-residents need permission to visit Pyongyang). I think the leaders probably wanted to avoid the third world look of millions of shabby bikes cluttering up the elegant boulevards, as the leaders must have observed on their regular visits in Beijing. There may also have been an element of, "we've provided you with a Metro and plenty of cheap buses/trams, so USE them". Also, there would have been a demand for cycle racks both at work places and in the cramped, high rise apartment blocks, which probably don't have room for bikes, and may not have lifts. Finally, Pyongyang is fairly compact, so most people probably live close enough to walk to work if necessary (particularly if they're allocated apartments close to where they work). Separately, women were banned from cycling throughout the country for many years, as the leader didn't like the look of women on bikes. Outside Pyongyang, most people live in low rises, and there's probably more space to store bikes; they also have to travel longer distances with little or no public transport. And it would have been much harder to enforce a ban on women cycling. As a result, you see many more bikes on the motorways outside the capital, often cycling in the wrong direction in the fast lane, or straight across the motorway; neither causes much of a problem to the few motor vehicles weaving their way around the pot holes. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 12/05/2013 12:52, Mizter T wrote:
On 09/05/2013 13:10, Recliner wrote: Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded public transport system. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/ Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits. Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses. There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking. V interesting stuff. Do you know what the logic was in banning bicycles (until recently) in Pyongyang? The regime fearful of the city masses having independent mobility perhaps. Aesthetics, I am guessing. I have seen other videos of Pyongyang, which did indeed show people on bicycles there. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 12/05/2013 15:21, Recliner wrote:
Mizter T wrote: On 09/05/2013 13:10, Recliner wrote: Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded public transport system. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/ Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits. Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses. There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking. V interesting stuff. Do you know what the logic was in banning bicycles (until recently) in Pyongyang? The regime fearful of the city masses having independent mobility perhaps. I can only speculate about the cycle ban in Pyongyang, as there doesn't seem to be any official information. It didn't apply outside the capital, so I don't think it was about restricting mobility (which the regime does using other means, in any case -- there are regular police road blocks on the highways, checking that people are not moving outside their permitted areas, and all non-residents need permission to visit Pyongyang). I think the leaders probably wanted to avoid the third world look of millions of shabby bikes cluttering up the elegant boulevards, as the leaders must have observed on their regular visits in Beijing. There may also have been an element of, "we've provided you with a Metro and plenty of cheap buses/trams, so USE them". Also, there would have been a demand for cycle racks both at work places and in the cramped, high rise apartment blocks, which probably don't have room for bikes, and may not have lifts. Finally, Pyongyang is fairly compact, so most people probably live close enough to walk to work if necessary (particularly if they're allocated apartments close to where they work). Separately, women were banned from cycling throughout the country for many years, as the leader didn't like the look of women on bikes. Would you say that Pyongyang is generally a rather small town? |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
" wrote:
On 12/05/2013 15:21, Recliner wrote: Mizter T wrote: On 09/05/2013 13:10, Recliner wrote: I think the leaders probably wanted to avoid the third world look of millions of shabby bikes cluttering up the elegant boulevards, as the leaders must have observed on their regular visits in Beijing. There may also have been an element of, "we've provided you with a Metro and plenty of cheap buses/trams, so USE them". Also, there would have been a demand for cycle racks both at work places and in the cramped, high rise apartment blocks, which probably don't have room for bikes, and may not have lifts. Finally, Pyongyang is fairly compact, so most people probably live close enough to walk to work if necessary (particularly if they're allocated apartments close to where they work). Separately, women were banned from cycling throughout the country for many years, as the leader didn't like the look of women on bikes. Would you say that Pyongyang is generally a rather small town? I wouldn't go that far, but by Asian standards, it's not a large city. As admission is restricted, you don't get the normal influx of peasants looking for pavements paved with gold, and we saw no evidence of beggars or homeless or even unemployed people. You do see a few shacks, but not the typical large shanty towns or illegally extended properties. I presume only those with jobs or academic places in the city are allowed to live there, so it keeps it tidy. And of course there's no litter or graffiti, but that's also true of Japan and South Korea. I don't know what Japanese tourists make of filthy European cities. But you do see peasants and soldiers foraging for food in the country, where it's harder to cover up the poverty. And you do see workers (possibly 'volunteers') travelling around standing in the backs of open lorries, even in Pyongyang, which is distinctly 'third world'. There are also lots of apparently abandoned building projects which show evidence of very poor workmanship (the concrete looks hand moulded). |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 12/05/2013 20:47, Recliner wrote:
" wrote: On 12/05/2013 15:21, Recliner wrote: Mizter T wrote: On 09/05/2013 13:10, Recliner wrote: I think the leaders probably wanted to avoid the third world look of millions of shabby bikes cluttering up the elegant boulevards, as the leaders must have observed on their regular visits in Beijing. There may also have been an element of, "we've provided you with a Metro and plenty of cheap buses/trams, so USE them". Also, there would have been a demand for cycle racks both at work places and in the cramped, high rise apartment blocks, which probably don't have room for bikes, and may not have lifts. Finally, Pyongyang is fairly compact, so most people probably live close enough to walk to work if necessary (particularly if they're allocated apartments close to where they work). Separately, women were banned from cycling throughout the country for many years, as the leader didn't like the look of women on bikes. Would you say that Pyongyang is generally a rather small town? I wouldn't go that far, but by Asian standards, it's not a large city. As admission is restricted, you don't get the normal influx of peasants looking for pavements paved with gold, and we saw no evidence of beggars or homeless or even unemployed people. You do see a few shacks, but not the typical large shanty towns or illegally extended properties. I presume only those with jobs or academic places in the city are allowed to live there, so it keeps it tidy. It's neither about jobs or academic places, so much as it is about political loyalty, if you want to live in Pyongyang. There are also lots of apparently abandoned building projects which show evidence of very poor workmanship (the concrete looks hand moulded). Because it is hand moulded. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
" wrote:
On 12/05/2013 20:47, Recliner wrote: " wrote: On 12/05/2013 15:21, Recliner wrote: Mizter T wrote: Would you say that Pyongyang is generally a rather small town? I wouldn't go that far, but by Asian standards, it's not a large city. As admission is restricted, you don't get the normal influx of peasants looking for pavements paved with gold, and we saw no evidence of beggars or homeless or even unemployed people. You do see a few shacks, but not the typical large shanty towns or illegally extended properties. I presume only those with jobs or academic places in the city are allowed to live there, so it keeps it tidy. It's neither about jobs or academic places, so much as it is about political loyalty, if you want to live in Pyongyang. Presumably only people with high 'songbun'? Of course, without it, Pyongyang jobs and places in good universities would be impossible to come by, regardless of skills or talent. There are also lots of apparently abandoned building projects which show evidence of very poor workmanship (the concrete looks hand moulded). Because it is hand moulded. Even their motorway bridges look to have been built that way. I wonder how many buildings and bridges collapse? Of course we'd hear nothing of it abroad. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 12/05/2013 21:27, Recliner wrote:
" wrote: On 12/05/2013 20:47, Recliner wrote: " wrote: On 12/05/2013 15:21, Recliner wrote: Mizter T wrote: Would you say that Pyongyang is generally a rather small town? I wouldn't go that far, but by Asian standards, it's not a large city. As admission is restricted, you don't get the normal influx of peasants looking for pavements paved with gold, and we saw no evidence of beggars or homeless or even unemployed people. You do see a few shacks, but not the typical large shanty towns or illegally extended properties. I presume only those with jobs or academic places in the city are allowed to live there, so it keeps it tidy. It's neither about jobs or academic places, so much as it is about political loyalty, if you want to live in Pyongyang. Presumably only people with high 'songbun'? Of course, without it, Pyongyang jobs and places in good universities would be impossible to come by, regardless of skills or talent. Thus ... Even their motorway bridges look to have been built that way. I wonder how many buildings and bridges collapse? Of course we'd hear nothing of it abroad. Much of the Pyongyang Tram network was also built by hand, I understand. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:31:37 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Sun, 12 May 2013 09:21:17 -0500, Recliner wrote: As a result, you see many more bikes on the motorways outside the capital, often cycling in the wrong direction in the fast lane, or straight across the motorway; neither causes much of a problem to the few motor vehicles weaving their way around the pot holes. Bicycles on the motorway! Well I think I can safely say that you manage to surprise me every time you post about N Korea. It sounds like one of the weirdest places on earth. I know it's a closed militarised society and a dictatorship with the full quotient of brainwashing but you do have to wonder how the N Koreans put up with all of this. It's almost beyond my comprehension. No bikes in this pic, but you get an idea of the state of the motorways in the country: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream As you can see, I had to set the pocket camera to its fastest shutter speed (1/2000 sec) to get sharp pictures from the bouncing (but not speeding) bus. The motorway to the south and the DMZ (the Reunification Highway) is in better condition, with a carriageway surface good for speeds up to about 90 km/h, and even a central reservation and a moribund services: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream There's no fuel pumps, and all the facilities in the building are closed, apart from the toilets, which have waterless toilets. Local entrepreneurial women set up tables outside to sell snacks and souvenirs to tourists. Cannily, they set up on the south side in the mornings, and the north in the evenings (if a vehicle travelling the wrong way wants to buy something from them, the driver just swerves across the empty motorway and enters the services from the wrong side): http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
In message , at 11:04:42 on
Mon, 13 May 2013, Recliner remarked: There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: So the problem seems to be a lack of tarmac paving the road, rather than just having crushed stone? -- Roland Perry |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On Mon, 13 May 2013 12:54:14 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 11:04:42 on Mon, 13 May 2013, Recliner remarked: There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: So the problem seems to be a lack of tarmac paving the road, rather than just having crushed stone? Even when there is tarmac, it tends to be in poor condition (it's probably another thing they're short of, as well road building machines). Concrete roads probably do badly in North Korea's weather (very cold winters, hot summers) and need more maintenance than they can provide. The wide, straight roads themselves seem to have been well engineered originally, with plenty of viaducts, bridges and tunnels through the mountains, but the funds to keep them in good condition seem not to be there (they're probably diverted to creating more leaders' statues and grand buildings). As most people aren't allowed to travel, it probably isn't an issue for the population at large, but it does seem odd that by far the worst road we travelled on was the one connecting the main port and the capital. We did see some freight trains, so that may be how most goods move. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 12/05/2013 15:21, Recliner wrote:
Separately, women were banned from cycling throughout the country for many years, as the leader didn't like the look of women on bikes. Any man with that attitude has clearly never been to Copenhagen. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 13/05/2013 13:08, Recliner wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2013 12:54:14 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:04:42 on Mon, 13 May 2013, Recliner remarked: There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: So the problem seems to be a lack of tarmac paving the road, rather than just having crushed stone? Even when there is tarmac, it tends to be in poor condition (it's probably another thing they're short of, as well road building machines). Concrete roads probably do badly in North Korea's weather (very cold winters, hot summers) and need more maintenance than they can provide. How was the road to Kaesong, however, considering its importance from a military and political perspective? The wide, straight roads themselves seem to have been well engineered originally, with plenty of viaducts, bridges and tunnels through the mountains, but the funds to keep them in good condition seem not to be there (they're probably diverted to creating more leaders' statues and grand buildings). As most people aren't allowed to travel, it probably isn't an issue for the population at large, but it does seem odd that by far the worst road we travelled on was the one connecting the main port and the capital. We did see some freight trains, so that may be how most goods move. I have also seen some footage of freight trains in the Nampo area on videos about the building of the Western Sea Barrier. I have not heard of many cases where tourists have visited Nampo, I must say. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 13/05/2013 11:04, Recliner wrote:
On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:31:37 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sun, 12 May 2013 09:21:17 -0500, Recliner wrote: As a result, you see many more bikes on the motorways outside the capital, often cycling in the wrong direction in the fast lane, or straight across the motorway; neither causes much of a problem to the few motor vehicles weaving their way around the pot holes. Bicycles on the motorway! Well I think I can safely say that you manage to surprise me every time you post about N Korea. It sounds like one of the weirdest places on earth. I know it's a closed militarised society and a dictatorship with the full quotient of brainwashing but you do have to wonder how the N Koreans put up with all of this. It's almost beyond my comprehension. No bikes in this pic, but you get an idea of the state of the motorways in the country: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream I liked the other photos in the link above, particularly of the Chollima statue and of the exterior to Kumsusan Palace. The â‚©200 note also has an image of the Chollima statue on its obverse, by the way. http://banknote.ws/COLLECTION/countr...ON/KON0062.htm |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 13/05/2013 11:04, Recliner wrote:
On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:31:37 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sun, 12 May 2013 09:21:17 -0500, Recliner wrote: As a result, you see many more bikes on the motorways outside the capital, often cycling in the wrong direction in the fast lane, or straight across the motorway; neither causes much of a problem to the few motor vehicles weaving their way around the pot holes. Bicycles on the motorway! Well I think I can safely say that you manage to surprise me every time you post about N Korea. It sounds like one of the weirdest places on earth. I know it's a closed militarised society and a dictatorship with the full quotient of brainwashing but you do have to wonder how the N Koreans put up with all of this. It's almost beyond my comprehension. No bikes in this pic, but you get an idea of the state of the motorways in the country: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream As you can see, I had to set the pocket camera to its fastest shutter speed (1/2000 sec) to get sharp pictures from the bouncing (but not speeding) bus. The motorway to the south and the DMZ (the Reunification Highway) is in better condition, with a carriageway surface good for speeds up to about 90 km/h, and even a central reservation and a moribund services: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream There's no fuel pumps, and all the facilities in the building are closed, apart from the toilets, which have waterless toilets. Local entrepreneurial women set up tables outside to sell snacks and souvenirs to tourists. So, do you pay them in Won or in hard currency? I wonder if it is against the law for North Korean citizens to hold foreign currency, as it was for Soviet citizens. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 12/05/2013 15:21, Recliner wrote: Separately, women were banned from cycling throughout the country for many years, as the leader didn't like the look of women on bikes. Any man with that attitude has clearly never been to Copenhagen. Very probably. I think he mainly visited people's democracies, not real ones. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
" wrote:
On 13/05/2013 11:04, Recliner wrote: On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:31:37 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sun, 12 May 2013 09:21:17 -0500, Recliner wrote: As a result, you see many more bikes on the motorways outside the capital, often cycling in the wrong direction in the fast lane, or straight across the motorway; neither causes much of a problem to the few motor vehicles weaving their way around the pot holes. Bicycles on the motorway! Well I think I can safely say that you manage to surprise me every time you post about N Korea. It sounds like one of the weirdest places on earth. I know it's a closed militarised society and a dictatorship with the full quotient of brainwashing but you do have to wonder how the N Koreans put up with all of this. It's almost beyond my comprehension. No bikes in this pic, but you get an idea of the state of the motorways in the country: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream As you can see, I had to set the pocket camera to its fastest shutter speed (1/2000 sec) to get sharp pictures from the bouncing (but not speeding) bus. The motorway to the south and the DMZ (the Reunification Highway) is in better condition, with a carriageway surface good for speeds up to about 90 km/h, and even a central reservation and a moribund services: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream There's no fuel pumps, and all the facilities in the building are closed, apart from the toilets, which have waterless toilets. Local entrepreneurial women set up tables outside to sell snacks and souvenirs to tourists. So, do you pay them in Won or in hard currency? I wonder if it is against the law for North Korean citizens to hold foreign currency, as it was for Soviet citizens. Euros, I think. After North Korea's disastrous currency reform, it would be hard to stop people holding foreign currencies. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
" wrote:
On 13/05/2013 13:08, Recliner wrote: On Mon, 13 May 2013 12:54:14 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:04:42 on Mon, 13 May 2013, Recliner remarked: There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: So the problem seems to be a lack of tarmac paving the road, rather than just having crushed stone? Even when there is tarmac, it tends to be in poor condition (it's probably another thing they're short of, as well road building machines). Concrete roads probably do badly in North Korea's weather (very cold winters, hot summers) and need more maintenance than they can provide. How was the road to Kaesong, however, considering its importance from a military and political perspective? The wide, straight roads themselves seem to have been well engineered originally, with plenty of viaducts, bridges and tunnels through the mountains, but the funds to keep them in good condition seem not to be there (they're probably diverted to creating more leaders' statues and grand buildings). As most people aren't allowed to travel, it probably isn't an issue for the population at large, but it does seem odd that by far the worst road we travelled on was the one connecting the main port and the capital. We did see some freight trains, so that may be how most goods move. I have also seen some footage of freight trains in the Nampo area on videos about the building of the Western Sea Barrier. I have not heard of many cases where tourists have visited Nampo, I must say. Yes, we drove along the sea barrage, saw the video in the visitor centre, looked at the sea locks, etc. As a ship was passing through, we couldn't go over the locks themselves. The road and railway line over the barrage didn't seem to be heavily used. We noticed what looked like a new comms cable being installed along the road to the barrier. It was being done by thousands of volunteers (whose bikes were parked along the road), hand digging a ditch and laying the cable in it. No culvert, just the cable dropped in the probably not very straight ditch. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
" wrote:
On 13/05/2013 13:08, Recliner wrote: On Mon, 13 May 2013 12:54:14 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:04:42 on Mon, 13 May 2013, Recliner remarked: There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: So the problem seems to be a lack of tarmac paving the road, rather than just having crushed stone? Even when there is tarmac, it tends to be in poor condition (it's probably another thing they're short of, as well road building machines). Concrete roads probably do badly in North Korea's weather (very cold winters, hot summers) and need more maintenance than they can provide. How was the road to Kaesong, however, considering its importance from a military and political perspective? As expected, that dual-carriage road was much much better maintained. Still not to UK standards, but capable of 100 km/h or so. As you get nearer to Kaesong, there are anti-tank barriers in every cutting that look like they've been there a long time. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...57633469222908 |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 13/05/2013 20:41, Recliner wrote:
" wrote: On 13/05/2013 13:08, Recliner wrote: On Mon, 13 May 2013 12:54:14 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:04:42 on Mon, 13 May 2013, Recliner remarked: There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: So the problem seems to be a lack of tarmac paving the road, rather than just having crushed stone? Even when there is tarmac, it tends to be in poor condition (it's probably another thing they're short of, as well road building machines). Concrete roads probably do badly in North Korea's weather (very cold winters, hot summers) and need more maintenance than they can provide. How was the road to Kaesong, however, considering its importance from a military and political perspective? The wide, straight roads themselves seem to have been well engineered originally, with plenty of viaducts, bridges and tunnels through the mountains, but the funds to keep them in good condition seem not to be there (they're probably diverted to creating more leaders' statues and grand buildings). As most people aren't allowed to travel, it probably isn't an issue for the population at large, but it does seem odd that by far the worst road we travelled on was the one connecting the main port and the capital. We did see some freight trains, so that may be how most goods move. I have also seen some footage of freight trains in the Nampo area on videos about the building of the Western Sea Barrier. I have not heard of many cases where tourists have visited Nampo, I must say. Yes, we drove along the sea barrage, saw the video in the visitor centre, looked at the sea locks, etc. As a ship was passing through, we couldn't go over the locks themselves. The road and railway line over the barrage didn't seem to be heavily used. We noticed what looked like a new comms cable being installed along the road to the barrier. It was being done by thousands of volunteers (whose bikes were parked along the road), hand digging a ditch and laying the cable in it. No culvert, just the cable dropped in the probably not very straight ditch. I was under the impression that Nampo as a city had a strategic importance and thus would be off limits to outsiders. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 13/05/2013 20:53, Recliner wrote:
" wrote: On 13/05/2013 13:08, Recliner wrote: On Mon, 13 May 2013 12:54:14 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:04:42 on Mon, 13 May 2013, Recliner remarked: There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: So the problem seems to be a lack of tarmac paving the road, rather than just having crushed stone? Even when there is tarmac, it tends to be in poor condition (it's probably another thing they're short of, as well road building machines). Concrete roads probably do badly in North Korea's weather (very cold winters, hot summers) and need more maintenance than they can provide. How was the road to Kaesong, however, considering its importance from a military and political perspective? As expected, that dual-carriage road was much much better maintained. Still not to UK standards, but capable of 100 km/h or so. As you get nearer to Kaesong, there are anti-tank barriers in every cutting that look like they've been there a long time. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...57633469222908 In order to move the military quickly, in case of an emergency. One of the reasons for Eisenhower's interstate motorway programme in the United States, AIUI. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 13/05/2013 20:41, Recliner wrote:
" wrote: On 13/05/2013 11:04, Recliner wrote: On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:31:37 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sun, 12 May 2013 09:21:17 -0500, Recliner wrote: As a result, you see many more bikes on the motorways outside the capital, often cycling in the wrong direction in the fast lane, or straight across the motorway; neither causes much of a problem to the few motor vehicles weaving their way around the pot holes. Bicycles on the motorway! Well I think I can safely say that you manage to surprise me every time you post about N Korea. It sounds like one of the weirdest places on earth. I know it's a closed militarised society and a dictatorship with the full quotient of brainwashing but you do have to wonder how the N Koreans put up with all of this. It's almost beyond my comprehension. No bikes in this pic, but you get an idea of the state of the motorways in the country: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream There's a pedestrian on the motorway in this pic, but the main lesson is how drivers have to weave their way along the broad highway to avoid craters: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream As you can see, I had to set the pocket camera to its fastest shutter speed (1/2000 sec) to get sharp pictures from the bouncing (but not speeding) bus. The motorway to the south and the DMZ (the Reunification Highway) is in better condition, with a carriageway surface good for speeds up to about 90 km/h, and even a central reservation and a moribund services: http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...in/photostream There's no fuel pumps, and all the facilities in the building are closed, apart from the toilets, which have waterless toilets. Local entrepreneurial women set up tables outside to sell snacks and souvenirs to tourists. So, do you pay them in Won or in hard currency? I wonder if it is against the law for North Korean citizens to hold foreign currency, as it was for Soviet citizens. Euros, I think. After North Korea's disastrous currency reform, it would be hard to stop people holding foreign currencies. I'm not surprised. If it's actually illegal, then the government can likely do very little about it, particularly considering how they cocked up in 2009. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if any North Korean government action to try and restrict citizens' hard currency holdings would be tantamount to suicide. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 12/05/2013 15:21, Recliner wrote:
Mizter T wrote: On 09/05/2013 13:10, Recliner wrote: Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded public transport system. http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/ Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits. Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses. There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking. V interesting stuff. Do you know what the logic was in banning bicycles (until recently) in Pyongyang? The regime fearful of the city masses having independent mobility perhaps. I can only speculate about the cycle ban in Pyongyang, as there doesn't seem to be any official information. It didn't apply outside the capital, so I don't think it was about restricting mobility (which the regime does using other means, in any case -- there are regular police road blocks on the highways, checking that people are not moving outside their permitted areas, and all non-residents need permission to visit Pyongyang). I think the leaders probably wanted to avoid the third world look of millions of shabby bikes cluttering up the elegant boulevards, as the leaders must have observed on their regular visits in Beijing. There may also have been an element of, "we've provided you with a Metro and plenty of cheap buses/trams, so USE them". Also, there would have been a demand for cycle racks both at work places and in the cramped, high rise apartment blocks, which probably don't have room for bikes, and may not have lifts. Finally, Pyongyang is fairly compact, so most people probably live close enough to walk to work if necessary (particularly if they're allocated apartments close to where they work). Separately, women were banned from cycling throughout the country for many years, as the leader didn't like the look of women on bikes. Reminds me of Turkmenistan's late Saparmurat Niyazov, a.k.a. Türkmenbaşy, who banned newscasters on Turkmen television from wearing any make-up. He also banned opera in the country on grounds that it was unTurkmen-like. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 2013\05\13 21:09, wrote:
I'm not surprised. If it's actually illegal, then the government can likely do very little about it, particularly considering how they cocked up in 2009. I missed that! I guess the EU's actions in Cyprus have a precedent! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_K...09_revaluation -- Ukip - Breaking the fungus of British politics |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
" wrote:
On 13/05/2013 20:41, Recliner wrote: " wrote: On 13/05/2013 13:08, Recliner wrote: On Mon, 13 May 2013 12:54:14 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: I have also seen some footage of freight trains in the Nampo area on videos about the building of the Western Sea Barrier. I have not heard of many cases where tourists have visited Nampo, I must say. Yes, we drove along the sea barrage, saw the video in the visitor centre, looked at the sea locks, etc. As a ship was passing through, we couldn't go over the locks themselves. The road and railway line over the barrage didn't seem to be heavily used. We noticed what looked like a new comms cable being installed along the road to the barrier. It was being done by thousands of volunteers (whose bikes were parked along the road), hand digging a ditch and laying the cable in it. No culvert, just the cable dropped in the probably not very straight ditch. I was under the impression that Nampo as a city had a strategic importance and thus would be off limits to outsiders. We drove right through the town centre, with no sign of any restrictions. Also had lunch there on the way back. We saw the crowds of school leavers ceremonially joining the military, taking pics as we went; no-one asked us not to. I'll post some pics from the barrage (again, no restrictions on photography). I imagine there must be a strong military presence in the area, but we saw none. All in all, it was a pleasant day out, which included visiting the same cooperative farm and water bottling plant that featured in the John Sweeney Panorama programme. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 13/05/2013 21:33, Recliner wrote:
" wrote: On 13/05/2013 20:41, Recliner wrote: " wrote: On 13/05/2013 13:08, Recliner wrote: On Mon, 13 May 2013 12:54:14 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: I have also seen some footage of freight trains in the Nampo area on videos about the building of the Western Sea Barrier. I have not heard of many cases where tourists have visited Nampo, I must say. Yes, we drove along the sea barrage, saw the video in the visitor centre, looked at the sea locks, etc. As a ship was passing through, we couldn't go over the locks themselves. The road and railway line over the barrage didn't seem to be heavily used. We noticed what looked like a new comms cable being installed along the road to the barrier. It was being done by thousands of volunteers (whose bikes were parked along the road), hand digging a ditch and laying the cable in it. No culvert, just the cable dropped in the probably not very straight ditch. I was under the impression that Nampo as a city had a strategic importance and thus would be off limits to outsiders. We drove right through the town centre, with no sign of any restrictions. Also had lunch there on the way back. We saw the crowds of school leavers ceremonially joining the military, taking pics as we went; no-one asked us not to. I'll post some pics from the barrage (again, no restrictions on photography). I imagine there must be a strong military presence in the area, but we saw none. All in all, it was a pleasant day out, which included visiting the same cooperative farm and water bottling plant that featured in the John Sweeney Panorama programme. So very professional that programme was. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
" wrote:
On 13/05/2013 21:33, Recliner wrote: " wrote: On 13/05/2013 20:41, Recliner wrote: " wrote: On 13/05/2013 13:08, Recliner wrote All in all, it was a pleasant day out, which included visiting the same cooperative farm and water bottling plant that featured in the John Sweeney Panorama programme. So very professional that programme was. Yes, truly dreadful. It added no new info or insights, and most of the key footage was recycled from other sources. It came out just a little while before my Pyongyang visit, but I was in Japan and didn't see it till I got home after the whole trip. I heard about it while on the road, and was worried that it would queer the pitch for us, but luckily it didn't. Our guides had heard about it, but we could honestly say we hadn't seen it and didn't know much about it. I just hope the guides that accompanied the LSE group didn't get into too much trouble. Incidentally, for those that don't know, the pairs of guides who accompany tour groups are very good. They really go out of their way to help visitors have a good time, and not get into trouble. |
Very OT 2: Pyongyang street scenes
On 13/05/2013 22:32, Recliner wrote:
" wrote: On 13/05/2013 21:33, Recliner wrote: " wrote: On 13/05/2013 20:41, Recliner wrote: " wrote: On 13/05/2013 13:08, Recliner wrote All in all, it was a pleasant day out, which included visiting the same cooperative farm and water bottling plant that featured in the John Sweeney Panorama programme. So very professional that programme was. Yes, truly dreadful. It added no new info or insights, and most of the key footage was recycled from other sources. Exactly. The programme looked like it was more about him, rather than anything else, from where I was sitting. "Look at me, I'm in North Korea! I'm going to find out all sorts of insightful stuff!" |
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