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eastender wrote:
I've not been to the surface at Canda Water - is there
anything up there?

Erm, Canada Water itself, with associated ducks, coots, swans,
water weed etc?

#Paul

The Economist on the Overground
 

On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 18:18:56 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:
I'd be tempted to go for a four map approach -

- tube map which just shows LU and DLR.
- TfL rail services map which shows LU, DLR, Overground, Crossrail,
other devolved rail services
- an updated version of the Oyster rail services map which shows all
rail services but with a focus on the terminal they run from.
- a full Rail services map which shows the service patterns run on the
respective networks. This would not be a simple map but it would at
least show the service structure and who runs it. This will be
important with the multiple service patterns through Crossrail and
Thameslink and the residual SWT, Southern and South Eastern routes.

Personally, I think two would be enough. As others have said, I'm not very
interested in who runs which service, unless it affects the ticket I need.

The map I would find most useful is a 'turn up and go' map, showing all
lines and stations with a train at least every 10 minutes throughout the
day. Most people use the tube map as the nearest available approximation
to this, but this misses out some very useful national rail services and
includes some low-frequency tube branches. If the map were popular it
would give an incentive to companies to run more frequent or more regular
services. It should probably exclude anything Oyster isn't valid on.

The other map would be the comprehensive map showing all services, ideally
with some indication of frequencies and journey times.

Colin McKenzie

--
Cycling in the UK is about as safe as walking, and helmets don't make it
safer. Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

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On 2013\10\08 20:39, Colin McKenzie wrote:

The map I would find most useful is a 'turn up and go' map, showing all
lines and stations with a train at least every 10 minutes throughout the
day. Most people use the tube map as the nearest available approximation
to this, but this misses out some very useful national rail services and
includes some low-frequency tube branches. If the map were popular it
would give an incentive to companies to run more frequent or more
regular services. It should probably exclude anything Oyster isn't valid
on.

That mightn't be as easy as it might seem. For instance, Waterloo to
Wimbledon might be TUAG, Waterloo to Surbiton might be TUAG, but
Wimbledon to Surbiton might not be. (That's an imaginary example.)

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On 08/10/2013 18:00, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 07 Oct 2013 18:09:36 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote:

A friend who has lived all her life in Haringey(?) and the City once
phoned me to come and meet her at Wimbledon, where the District Line
runs out before the place she needed to get to.

And? I am sure there are plenty of people who are "lost" if they
venture off their normal routes whether they are used to the "big
railway" or the tube or the buses.

Mainly native Londoners, in my experience. Incomers are more likely to
have figured out a wider area.

You are just repeating your regular "wind up" of those people who live
in "tube land" and who have not learned to swallow the entire Southern
Region (or TOC equivalent) timetable whole ;-)

People seem to worry that they will get confused by having to wait up to
15 min for a train and also have to check where (rather than just which
direction) it is going.

On the Underground that might be an issue for far-Metropolitan Line
Land, but they only person I know from that way used Chiltern and has
moved anyway.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

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On 08/10/2013 20:49, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2013\10\08 20:39, Colin McKenzie wrote:

The map I would find most useful is a 'turn up and go' map, showing all
lines and stations with a train at least every 10 minutes throughout the
day. Most people use the tube map as the nearest available approximation
to this, but this misses out some very useful national rail services and
includes some low-frequency tube branches. If the map were popular it
would give an incentive to companies to run more frequent or more
regular services. It should probably exclude anything Oyster isn't valid
on.

That mightn't be as easy as it might seem. For instance, Waterloo to
Wimbledon might be TUAG, Waterloo to Surbiton might be TUAG, but
Wimbledon to Surbiton might not be. (That's an imaginary example.)

And what happens with lines where there are longer gaps at peak
(sic)times, and shorter gaps during the day?



--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

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On 09/10/2013 01:32, Paul Corfield wrote:

Anyway Mr F you're still playing your game of contrasting the "big
railway" with the "little railway" to try to show that people who
understand the "big railway" are somehow "better".

No I'm not, I'm just pointing out that there really are different
attitudes, which us anoraks shouldn't ignore just because they don't
affect us.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

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On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:37:53 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote:
On 08/10/2013 20:49, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2013\10\08 20:39, Colin McKenzie wrote:

The map I would find most useful is a 'turn up and go' map, showing all
lines and stations with a train at least every 10 minutes throughout
the
day. Most people use the tube map as the nearest available
approximation
to this, but this misses out some very useful national rail services
and
includes some low-frequency tube branches. If the map were popular it
would give an incentive to companies to run more frequent or more
regular services. It should probably exclude anything Oyster isn't
valid
on.

That mightn't be as easy as it might seem. For instance, Waterloo to
Wimbledon might be TUAG, Waterloo to Surbiton might be TUAG, but
Wimbledon to Surbiton might not be. (That's an imaginary example.)

I agree this could be troublesome, but I suspect not in many places.
Colour coding, footnotes, and leaving some stations off, would solve most
of it.

And what happens with lines where there are longer gaps at peak
(sic)times, and shorter gaps during the day?

They don't go on the map. I was using all day as shorthand for something
like 7am to 7pm.

Colin McKenzie

--
Cycling in the UK is about as safe as walking, and helmets don't make it
safer. Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

The Economist on the Overground
 

Paul Corfield wrote:


I just noticed that Northumberland Park and Angel Road are, apart
from a few trains at the extremes of the day, only served by
Stratford trains, and so have no service to Central London, but
also have no service to Ponders End or Brimsdown, which are only
served by Liverpool Street trains. Tottenham Hale has no trains
that call at Clapton or London Fields etc., so if you wanted to go
from London Fields to Northumberland Park, although it's four
stations on a straight track and many trains pass through both
stations, you need three trains. I don't know of any other straight
line with such a fragmented service pattern.

Well this shows the problems of emphasising longer distance services
over local ones and inadequate infrastructure. I recently checked the
current timestales to see whether any trains from T Hale ever stop at
Clapton (or vice versa) and none do. I am sure that sometime in the
last 20 years trains used to serve both stops but I can't recall any
formal request to remove the service. It is ludicrous that a single
stop journey cannot be done - to make the trip requires a trip back to
Hackney or via Walthamstow Central and the tube which is just mad.
Going by bus would require 3 buses.

There is still one train a day between Clapton and Tottenham Hale, the
2340 Liverpool Street - Hertford East.

Peter Smyth

The Economist on the Overground
 

There is still one train a day between Clapton and Tottenham Hale, the
2340 Liverpool Street - Hertford East.

I don't keep old timetables any more but IIRC there was one morning peak call towards London a few years ago.

As well as the issue if local journeys peak Chingford trains are very crowded and often full by St James Street.

The Economist on the Overground
 

On 10/10/2013 09:18, Colin McKenzie wrote:
On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:37:53 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote:
On 08/10/2013 20:49, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2013\10\08 20:39, Colin McKenzie wrote:

The map I would find most useful is a 'turn up and go' map, showing all
lines and stations with a train at least every 10 minutes throughout
the
day. Most people use the tube map as the nearest available
approximation
to this, but this misses out some very useful national rail services
and
includes some low-frequency tube branches. If the map were popular it
would give an incentive to companies to run more frequent or more
regular services. It should probably exclude anything Oyster isn't
valid
on.

That mightn't be as easy as it might seem. For instance, Waterloo to
Wimbledon might be TUAG, Waterloo to Surbiton might be TUAG, but
Wimbledon to Surbiton might not be. (That's an imaginary example.)

I agree this could be troublesome, but I suspect not in many places.
Colour coding, footnotes, and leaving some stations off, would solve
most of it.

And what happens with lines where there are longer gaps at peak
(sic)times, and shorter gaps during the day?

They don't go on the map. I was using all day as shorthand for something
like 7am to 7pm.

Which could risk wiping a fair chunk of the map. OK, so few people might
miss Epsom Downs, and Wimbledon - Sutton is no good for turn up and go,
but Sutton - West Croydon is a fairly handy link between two towns which
people might feel it was a shame to drop off for the sake of 20 min
headways in the peak (it is still quicker than a 407 or probably an X26).

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK