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| London Transport (uk.transport.london) Discussion of all forms of transport in London. |
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#12
April 4th 14, 02:35 AM
posted to uk.transport.london,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.railway
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London Crossrail to Reading
On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 07:05:56 -0500,
wrote: In article , (Aurora) wrote: On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 12:50:59 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 06:29:21PM -0700, Aurora wrote: On Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:44:10 +0000, Robert wrote: Other hot news - there will be no toilets in the trains, nor any specific accommodation for bicycles[1]: Crossrail is only in the business of moving people. Trains sans water closets from Reading to London are unacceptable. Why not? The expected journey time from Liverpool St to Maidenhead (the lookup thingy on the Crossrail website doesn't know about Reading yet, although the maps do) is 49 minutes. That's pretty much exactly the same as Aldgate East to Wimbledon on the District Line. The District Line would not be one's route of choice if travelling between those stations. How would you travel between those points, then? Fair question councillor: My preferred route would be District Line to Monument, or bus to Bank, then Waterloo and City to Waterloo. At Waterloo there are clean public conveniences. And, I can stop by WH Smiths for a Railway Magazine, some candy, and any other supplies. Should there be a wait for a train to Wimbledon, or, I decide to break my journey for longer than necessary, there is now an excellent sports bar upstairs. I might stop for a sandwich and a drink. The thought of a long, crowded, noisy, hot, subterranean journey along most of the southern half of the Circle is unattractive in the extreme. -- http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno |
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#13
April 4th 14, 02:44 AM
posted to uk.transport.london,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.railway
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London Crossrail to Reading
On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 22:29:57 +0100, Mizter T
wrote: On 03/04/2014 19:31, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 17:01:09 on Thu, 3 Apr 2014, Mizter T remarked: I'm used to comparison with journeys to East Putney/Putney. The via SWT fares are higher. I expect that is not so in the case of Wimbledon. It is the case. Are we assuming everyone wants the cheapest journey, irrespective of how long it takes, or the facilities[tm] available on the trains? I wasn't assuming anything along those lines, merely addressing Colin's question (or rather erroneous expectation) with regards to the fares. For such a journey the fares will undoubtedly be a consideration for some though, especially given the fact there's not a huge time saving in going via Waterloo/SWT. It's not quite the same as some of the cheaper route options which avoid zone 1 (which exist on London Overground), where the extra journey time can be rather more than 10 minutes. Re the facilities issue - there are no loos on the class 455 trains which provide the bulk of the Waterloo to Wimbledon service. Such facilities exist at the aptly named Waterloo, of course. Elegant phrasing indeed. -- http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno |
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#14
April 4th 14, 09:26 AM
posted to uk.transport.london
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London Crossrail to Reading
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:34:26 -0500, wrote: I seem to remember running into that problem trying to do Highbury and Islington to Clapham Junction too. You shouldn't run in to that problem because there are only 3 fares. The default fare is on the TfL tariff and is priced avoiding Zone 1 regardless of which way round you go - via Peckham or via Willesden. As there are through trains there is no way that TfL can determine which route you took which is why the Overground fare is route agnostic for Highbury - Clapham Junction. Even though, if you go via Peckham Rye you do go through Zone 1 at Shoreditch High Street. Peter |
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#15
April 4th 14, 10:36 AM
posted to uk.transport.london
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London Crossrail to Reading
In article ,
(Aurora) wrote: On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 07:05:56 -0500, wrote: In article , (Aurora) wrote: On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 12:50:59 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 06:29:21PM -0700, Aurora wrote: On Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:44:10 +0000, Robert wrote: Other hot news - there will be no toilets in the trains, nor any specific accommodation for bicycles[1]: Crossrail is only in the business of moving people. Trains sans water closets from Reading to London are unacceptable. Why not? The expected journey time from Liverpool St to Maidenhead (the lookup thingy on the Crossrail website doesn't know about Reading yet, although the maps do) is 49 minutes. That's pretty much exactly the same as Aldgate East to Wimbledon on the District Line. The District Line would not be one's route of choice if travelling between those stations. How would you travel between those points, then? Fair question councillor: My preferred route would be District Line to Monument, or bus to Bank, then Waterloo and City to Waterloo. At Waterloo there are clean public conveniences. And, I can stop by WH Smiths for a Railway Magazine, some candy, and any other supplies. Should there be a wait for a train to Wimbledon, or, I decide to break my journey for longer than necessary, there is now an excellent sports bar upstairs. I might stop for a sandwich and a drink. The thought of a long, crowded, noisy, hot, subterranean journey along most of the southern half of the Circle is unattractive in the extreme. Each to their own then. The Monument/W&C interchange is pretty tortuous IME. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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#16
April 4th 14, 12:15 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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London Crossrail to Reading
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote: *Subject:* London Crossrail to Reading *From:* Paul Corfield *Date:* Fri, 04 Apr 2014 11:00:13 +0100 On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:26:35 +0100, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:34:26 -0500, wrote: I seem to remember running into that problem trying to do Highbury and Islington to Clapham Junction too. You shouldn't run in to that problem because there are only 3 fares. The default fare is on the TfL tariff and is priced avoiding Zone 1 regardless of which way round you go - via Peckham or via Willesden. As there are through trains there is no way that TfL can determine which route you took which is why the Overground fare is route agnostic for Highbury - Clapham Junction. Even though, if you go via Peckham Rye you do go through Zone 1 at Shoreditch High Street. Absolutely. Short of checking you at precisely the moment the train is in zone 1 what can they do? Providing you have touched in and have a positive PAYG balance or a valid Travelcard and positive PAYG balance what can they do? You're entirely within the rules and it's TfL's decision to have one fare on Overground services regardless of direction. It's impossible to impose an intermediate validation requirement when there is a through train service. You would be in trouble if you had a paper Travelcard season without Zone 1 on it and were checked while within Zone 1. Clearly the system cannot charge you an extension fare on exit when using paper tickets. It's irrelevant with One Day Travelcards as there no versions which exclude Zone 1. If you travel from Highbury to Wandsworth Road then that is priced via Zone 1 as they assume you travel via Peckham. The only cheaper alternative is to travel via Stratford and touching the pink validator there and then resuming the ELL at Whitechapel or Canada Water (no requirement to touch there as, of course, you could simply jump off an overground train, touch, and get back on having gone via SHS anyway!). That's the trouble. I was actually going to Putney, not Clapham Junction I now recall, and that has no Highbury fare not via Zone 1 even though that was the way I went. I'd touched the pink validator at Willesden Junction too. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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#17
April 4th 14, 11:22 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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London Crossrail to Reading
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote: On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 07:15:41 -0500, wrote: That's the trouble. I was actually going to Putney, not Clapham Junction I now recall, and that has no Highbury fare not via Zone 1 even though that was the way I went. I'd touched the pink validator at Willesden Junction too. Well yes you would be caught by that. The alternative is to go on the Overground to West Brompton, change to the District and touch the pink validator on the interchange route and then alight at East Putney (closeish to Putney but possibly not as convenient for you). That is a defined route in the Fares Finder. You have to comply with the Fare Finder in terms of where to change and touch. You can't invent your own route validator touches as it won't align with the ticket routing and charging logic held by gates or validators at the exit station. East Putney would have been as good as Putney as it happens. It didn't occur to me to change at West Brompton for some reason. I think I actually wanted to travel by LO to Clapham Junction. Are you saying that touching the pink validator at Willesden Junction wouldn't be good enough to prove a not-via-Zone 1 route between Highbury & Islington and East Putney? How on earth are passengers meant to know they have to touch a particular pink validator? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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#18
April 5th 14, 12:41 AM
posted to uk.transport.london
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London Crossrail to Reading
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote: On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 18:22:31 -0500, wrote: Are you saying that touching the pink validator at Willesden Junction wouldn't be good enough to prove a not-via-Zone 1 route between Highbury & Islington and East Putney? How on earth are passengers meant to know they have to touch a particular pink validator? Yes that is exactly what I am saying. TfL have defined the default and alternative routes and fares in the Single Fare Finder. Some origin and destination pairs only have one default fare. Clearly adjacent stations or all stations in zone 1 will typically have just 1 fare. As you spread out from Zone 1 and in particular touch where the Overground network comes into play then the number of routes can increase. If you travel through Zone 1 on PAYG and travel on NR routes and NR termini and change to the tube then you'll pay a higher fare than if just using the tube network was an option. As I have shown in previous posts even where route options exist on the rail network TfL may not have specified any alternative fares. This means you're charged for Zone 1 even if you do not travel through it. Passengers have to check the single fare finder to avoid falling foul of the system. You must comply with the route and validation requirements are set out by TfL - especially if you want to pay a lower fare. I have lost count of the times when I have had to check using a smartphone whether the route I wanted to take, even when in the zones I hold on my Oyster Card, was valid and what the validation rules were. The old TfL website was very smartphone unfriendly on the Single Fares Finder and it could be very frustrating trying to find the requisite information. I have yet to test out the new site whilst "on the move". Ironically the new Fares Finder does not have Wandsworth Road Overground station in it. If you have a Travelcard valid in Zone 1 then route options tend not to be an issue. If you are using PAYG and are willing to pay for Zone 1 then there's nothing to worry about. But why does touching on the pink validator at Willesden Junction not prove a route avoiding zone 1 has been used between Highbury and Islington and Clapham Junction? I thought that was the point of pink validators? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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#19
April 5th 14, 01:53 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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London Crossrail to Reading
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote: On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 19:41:08 -0500, wrote: In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 18:22:31 -0500, wrote: Are you saying that touching the pink validator at Willesden Junction wouldn't be good enough to prove a not-via-Zone 1 route between Highbury & Islington and East Putney? How on earth are passengers meant to know they have to touch a particular pink validator? Yes that is exactly what I am saying. TfL have defined the default and alternative routes and fares in the Single Fare Finder. Some origin and destination pairs only have one default fare. Clearly adjacent stations or all stations in zone 1 will typically have just 1 fare. As you spread out from Zone 1 and in particular touch where the Overground network comes into play then the number of routes can increase. If you travel through Zone 1 on PAYG and travel on NR routes and NR termini and change to the tube then you'll pay a higher fare than if just using the tube network was an option. As I have shown in previous posts even where route options exist on the rail network TfL may not have specified any alternative fares. This means you're charged for Zone 1 even if you do not travel through it. Passengers have to check the single fare finder to avoid falling foul of the system. You must comply with the route and validation requirements are set out by TfL - especially if you want to pay a lower fare. I have lost count of the times when I have had to check using a smartphone whether the route I wanted to take, even when in the zones I hold on my Oyster Card, was valid and what the validation rules were. The old TfL website was very smartphone unfriendly on the Single Fares Finder and it could be very frustrating trying to find the requisite information. I have yet to test out the new site whilst "on the move". Ironically the new Fares Finder does not have Wandsworth Road Overground station in it. If you have a Travelcard valid in Zone 1 then route options tend not to be an issue. If you are using PAYG and are willing to pay for Zone 1 then there's nothing to worry about. But why does touching on the pink validator at Willesden Junction not prove a route avoiding zone 1 has been used between Highbury and Islington and Clapham Junction? I thought that was the point of pink validators? Because there is a through train service from Highbury to Clapham and TfL do not set pink validator touches at locations where people would have to get off a train in order to comply. The pink validators at Will Jnc are on the walking interchange route between the Watford Line and the NLL / WLL and are used to register non Z1 trips using those routes. The point here, and please don't shoot the messenger, is that TfL define the touches they expect to see in order to trigger the reduced fare. I assume that the fare tables used by gates define the location codes the gate will expect to see in the Oyster card journey history data. Thanks for the explanation. The system isn't exactly transparent. I was in fact interchanging at Willesden Junction because I got there on a Richmond train. So, when I goto West Dulwich next week, there is no point in looking for a far avoiding Zone 1 because there won't be one? It says "Some journeys are charged via Zone 1 irrespective of the route taken" in the single fare finder. I'm going to get a paper Day Travelcard on this occasion and avoid any hassle. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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#20
April 7th 14, 06:23 PM
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London Crossrail to Reading
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