On 03/04/2014 17:23, wrote:
[...]
Fair enough. I'm used to comparison with journeys to East Putney/Putney.
The via SWT fares are higher. I expect that is not so in the case of
Wimbledon.

It is the case.

Stay on the Tube and you pay the TfL rate fare. Use the Tube and NR
and you pay the more expensive 'through fare' (unless the NR line in
question is subject to the TfL rate, but in this case it's not [1]).

Fares can be checked using the fare finder he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/single-fare-finder

But if you use Oyster there is only one gateline at Wimbledon. What do you
get charged if you touch in at Waterloo or Vauxhall or not?

You can look up specific fares on the fare finder link I gave above.

The system knows if you travelled on NR via Waterloo (or Vauxhall),
because you'd have touched-out at the Tube gateline and touched-in at
the NR gateline.

(If you were to somehow escape Waterloo Tube station without
touching-out, and get on to the Waterloo mainline platforms without
touching-in, then on arrival at Wimbledon the system would assume you'd
arrived on the Underground - of course you would also have made the
Waterloo to Wimbledon journey on SWT without a valid ticket.)

"Mizter T" wrote

(If you were to somehow escape Waterloo Tube station without touching-out,
and get on to the Waterloo mainline platforms without touching-in, then on
arrival at Wimbledon the system would assume you'd arrived on the
Underground - of course you would also have made the Waterloo to Wimbledon
journey on SWT without a valid ticket.)

Suppose you touch in at Kensington Olympia and touch out at Wimbledon. Does
the system know whether you've used LUL throughout, via Earls Court, or NR
throughout, via Clapham Junction? Does it take account of the day/time and
whether the Kensington Olympia - Earls Court service is actually running?

Peter

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 18:08:24 +0100, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

(If you were to somehow escape Waterloo Tube station without
touching-out, and get on to the Waterloo mainline platforms without
touching-in, then on arrival at Wimbledon the system would assume you'd
arrived on the Underground - of course you would also have made the
Waterloo to Wimbledon journey on SWT without a valid ticket.)

Suppose you touch in at Kensington Olympia and touch out at Wimbledon.
Does the system know whether you've used LUL throughout, via Earls Court,
or NR throughout, via Clapham Junction? Does it take account of the
day/time and whether the Kensington Olympia - Earls Court service is
actually running?

Very interesting example. Looking at the fares finder shows that it is
priced on the TfL fare scale regardless of mode *provided* you don't
go via Zone 1 (where higher fares apply). Therefore the SWT service is
treated as being on the TfL PAYG tariff. To make it fair the base
fare should be priced as TfL / NR with an alternative fare made
available via West Brompton where there are pink validators to
register this route. I recognise this does NOT cover the possibility
of travel via Earls Court, which does not have pink validators, but
the District Line service from Olympia is very limited these days.

Checking the fare to Earsfield from Olympia shows it is more expensive
at all times compared to Wimbledon because it is priced on the TfL /
NR tariff. This is not the only inconsistency in pricing where there
are differing applications of TfL, NR and TfL / NR tariffs.

I have yet to find any fares which require the use of the pink
validators at Clapham Junction given there are no fares from north or
north east London routed via CJ onto Southern or SWT services. They're
just routed via Zone 1. This is important if you hold a Z23 travelcard
and want to travel from say Wandsworth Town to Crouch Hill. That
journey is priced via Zone 1 even though it is perfectly viable,
though slow, to use the Overground via Willesden and Gospel Oak.
Therefore you can travel entirely within your zones but the lack of a
priced PAYG fare means you will be surcharged for Zone 1 even if you
do not travel through it. The only way to avoid the surcharge is to
exit and then re-enter at Clapham Junction which breaks the journey.

I seem to remember running into that problem trying to do Highbury and
Islington to Clapham Junction too.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:34:26 -0500,
wrote:

I seem to remember running into that problem trying to do Highbury and
Islington to Clapham Junction too.

You shouldn't run in to that problem because there are only 3 fares.

The default fare is on the TfL tariff and is priced avoiding Zone 1
regardless of which way round you go - via Peckham or via Willesden.
As there are through trains there is no way that TfL can determine
which route you took which is why the Overground fare is route
agnostic for Highbury - Clapham Junction.

Even though, if you go via Peckham Rye you do go through Zone 1 at
Shoreditch High Street.

Peter

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

*Subject:* London Crossrail to Reading
*From:* Paul Corfield
*Date:* Fri, 04 Apr 2014 11:00:13 +0100

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:26:35 +0100, "Peter Masson"
wrote:



"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:34:26 -0500,
wrote:

I seem to remember running into that problem trying to do Highbury
and
Islington to Clapham Junction too.

You shouldn't run in to that problem because there are only 3 fares.

The default fare is on the TfL tariff and is priced avoiding Zone 1
regardless of which way round you go - via Peckham or via Willesden.
As there are through trains there is no way that TfL can determine
which route you took which is why the Overground fare is route
agnostic for Highbury - Clapham Junction.

Even though, if you go via Peckham Rye you do go through Zone 1 at
Shoreditch High Street.

Absolutely. Short of checking you at precisely the moment the train
is in zone 1 what can they do? Providing you have touched in and have
a positive PAYG balance or a valid Travelcard and positive PAYG
balance what can they do? You're entirely within the rules and it's
TfL's decision to have one fare on Overground services regardless of
direction. It's impossible to impose an intermediate validation
requirement when there is a through train service.

You would be in trouble if you had a paper Travelcard season without
Zone 1 on it and were checked while within Zone 1. Clearly the system
cannot charge you an extension fare on exit when using paper tickets.
It's irrelevant with One Day Travelcards as there no versions which
exclude Zone 1.

If you travel from Highbury to Wandsworth Road then that is priced via
Zone 1 as they assume you travel via Peckham. The only cheaper
alternative is to travel via Stratford and touching the pink validator
there and then resuming the ELL at Whitechapel or Canada Water (no
requirement to touch there as, of course, you could simply jump off an
overground train, touch, and get back on having gone via SHS anyway!).

That's the trouble. I was actually going to Putney, not Clapham Junction I
now recall, and that has no Highbury fare not via Zone 1 even though that
was the way I went. I'd touched the pink validator at Willesden Junction too.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 07:15:41 -0500,
wrote:

That's the trouble. I was actually going to Putney, not Clapham Junction
I now recall, and that has no Highbury fare not via Zone 1 even though
that was the way I went. I'd touched the pink validator at Willesden
Junction too.

Well yes you would be caught by that. The alternative is to go on the
Overground to West Brompton, change to the District and touch the pink
validator on the interchange route and then alight at East Putney
(closeish to Putney but possibly not as convenient for you). That is
a defined route in the Fares Finder. You have to comply with the Fare
Finder in terms of where to change and touch. You can't invent your
own route validator touches as it won't align with the ticket routing
and charging logic held by gates or validators at the exit station.

East Putney would have been as good as Putney as it happens. It didn't occur
to me to change at West Brompton for some reason. I think I actually wanted
to travel by LO to Clapham Junction.

Are you saying that touching the pink validator at Willesden Junction
wouldn't be good enough to prove a not-via-Zone 1 route between Highbury &
Islington and East Putney? How on earth are passengers meant to know they
have to touch a particular pink validator?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 18:22:31 -0500,
wrote:

Are you saying that touching the pink validator at Willesden Junction
wouldn't be good enough to prove a not-via-Zone 1 route between Highbury
& Islington and East Putney? How on earth are passengers meant to know
they have to touch a particular pink validator?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

TfL have defined the default and alternative routes and fares in the
Single Fare Finder. Some origin and destination pairs only have one
default fare. Clearly adjacent stations or all stations in zone 1
will typically have just 1 fare. As you spread out from Zone 1 and in
particular touch where the Overground network comes into play then the
number of routes can increase. If you travel through Zone 1 on PAYG
and travel on NR routes and NR termini and change to the tube then
you'll pay a higher fare than if just using the tube network was an
option. As I have shown in previous posts even where route options
exist on the rail network TfL may not have specified any alternative
fares. This means you're charged for Zone 1 even if you do not travel
through it.

Passengers have to check the single fare finder to avoid falling foul
of the system. You must comply with the route and validation
requirements are set out by TfL - especially if you want to pay a
lower fare.

I have lost count of the times when I have had to check using a
smartphone whether the route I wanted to take, even when in the zones
I hold on my Oyster Card, was valid and what the validation rules
were. The old TfL website was very smartphone unfriendly on the Single
Fares Finder and it could be very frustrating trying to find the
requisite information. I have yet to test out the new site whilst "on
the move". Ironically the new Fares Finder does not have Wandsworth
Road Overground station in it.

If you have a Travelcard valid in Zone 1 then route options tend not
to be an issue. If you are using PAYG and are willing to pay for Zone
1 then there's nothing to worry about.

But why does touching on the pink validator at Willesden Junction not prove
a route avoiding zone 1 has been used between Highbury and Islington and
Clapham Junction? I thought that was the point of pink validators?

--
Colin Rosenstiel