"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 17/06/2014 21:08, wrote:
In article ,
(JNugent) wrote:

On 17/06/2014 11:22, Basil Jet wrote:

Surely if there was no demand for hackney carriages in South Cambs
previously, and this new science park creates such a demand, one thing
to do would be to allow a small number of South Cambs private hires to
become South Cambs hackney carriages.

There is no recognised system for that.

It would be just as easy - and probably more expedient - to simply
allow some or all of the hackney-carriage owners to apply for an
extra vehicle licence (or licences).

I don't think the same vehicle can be licensed as both a hackney carriage
and hire car.

What need would there be for it?

so they can "pick up" from a rank at the new science park station

You seem to have missed the problem here.

Because (it appears that) there are currently no ranks in South Cambs and
nowhere that driving around looking for a hire is worthwhile, there are no
licensed hackney cabs in SC. They all content themselves with operating as
mini cabs offering their pre-booked (5 minutes before by phone) service both
in SC and Cambridge City.

But Roland (and others), not unreasonably, think that there will be business
customers arriving at the new SP station thinking that the 20-25 minute walk
to the company that they are visiting is too far, expecting to jump in a
un-booked cab.

But SC cabs won't be able to pick up there because none of them are licensed
to ply for hire and City cabs won't be able to pick up there because (by a
few 100 yards) the station is in SC.

So people are suggesting solutions to this problem.

tim

In message , at 09:11:33 on Wed, 18
Jun 2014, tim..... remarked:
Surely if there was no demand for hackney carriages in South Cambs
previously, and this new science park creates such a demand, one thing
to do would be to allow a small number of South Cambs private hires to
become South Cambs hackney carriages.

There is no recognised system for that.

It would be just as easy - and probably more expedient - to simply
allow some or all of the hackney-carriage owners to apply for an
extra vehicle licence (or licences).

I don't think the same vehicle can be licensed as both a hackney carriage
and hire car.

What need would there be for it?

so they can "pick up" from a rank at the new science park station

You seem to have missed the problem here.

Because (it appears that) there are currently no ranks in South Cambs
and nowhere that driving around looking for a hire is worthwhile, there
are no licensed hackney cabs in SC. They all content themselves with
operating as mini cabs offering their pre-booked (5 minutes before by
phone) service both in SC and Cambridge City.

But Roland (and others), not unreasonably, think that there will be
business customers arriving at the new SP station thinking that the
20-25 minute walk to the company that they are visiting is too far,
expecting to jump in a un-booked cab.

But SC cabs won't be able to pick up there because none of them are
licensed to ply for hire and City cabs won't be able to pick up there
because (by a few 100 yards) the station is in SC.

That's an excellent summary, but there's one wrinkle which makes this
particular scenario stand out: The station will be at the end of a half
mile cul-de-sac where *only* that last couple of hundred yards is in SC.
The rest of it (and the main road onto which it emerges) are in the
City.

So people are suggesting solutions to this problem.

I'm beginning to think that locating the taxi rank 200yds from the
station as a monument to the inflexibility of the law, is the only
solution.

Either that, or have a minicab phone in the ticket office with the
availability of pre-booked cars generally being "as soon as you step
outside the building, Sir".
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 09:11:33 on Wed, 18
Jun 2014, tim..... remarked:
Surely if there was no demand for hackney carriages in South Cambs
previously, and this new science park creates such a demand, one
thing to do would be to allow a small number of South Cambs private
hires to become South Cambs hackney carriages.

There is no recognised system for that.

It would be just as easy - and probably more expedient - to simply
allow some or all of the hackney-carriage owners to apply for an
extra vehicle licence (or licences).

I don't think the same vehicle can be licensed as both a hackney
carriage and hire car.

What need would there be for it?

so they can "pick up" from a rank at the new science park station

You seem to have missed the problem here.

Because (it appears that) there are currently no ranks in South Cambs
and nowhere that driving around looking for a hire is worthwhile, there
are no licensed hackney cabs in SC. They all content themselves with
operating as mini cabs offering their pre-booked (5 minutes before by
phone) service both in SC and Cambridge City.

You are not quite correct. There are a small number of licensed hackney
carriages in South Cambs, something like half a dozen. The number has been
rising slightly too. I also have a feeling that one or two villages have
ranks. Sawston maybe?

But Roland (and others), not unreasonably, think that there will be
business customers arriving at the new SP station thinking that the
20-25 minute walk to the company that they are visiting is too far,
expecting to jump in a un-booked cab.

But SC cabs won't be able to pick up there because none of them are
licensed to ply for hire and City cabs won't be able to pick up
there because (by a few 100 yards) the station is in SC.

That's an excellent summary, but there's one wrinkle which makes this
particular scenario stand out: The station will be at the end of a
half mile cul-de-sac where *only* that last couple of hundred yards
is in SC. The rest of it (and the main road onto which it emerges)
are in the City.

So people are suggesting solutions to this problem.

I'm beginning to think that locating the taxi rank 200yds from the
station as a monument to the inflexibility of the law, is the only
solution.

Either that, or have a minicab phone in the ticket office with the
availability of pre-booked cars generally being "as soon as you step
outside the building, Sir".

You lot are indicating very clearly why the sensible solution is a combined
licensing authority for the City and South Cambs. It has the advantage that
is is legally deliverable, especially with the help of the new City Deal.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 18/06/2014 08:11, tim..... wrote:


"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 17/06/2014 21:08, wrote:
In article ,
(JNugent) wrote:

On 17/06/2014 11:22, Basil Jet wrote:

Surely if there was no demand for hackney carriages in South Cambs
previously, and this new science park creates such a demand, one thing
to do would be to allow a small number of South Cambs private hires to
become South Cambs hackney carriages.

There is no recognised system for that.

It would be just as easy - and probably more expedient - to simply
allow some or all of the hackney-carriage owners to apply for an
extra vehicle licence (or licences).

I don't think the same vehicle can be licensed as both a hackney
carriage
and hire car.

What need would there be for it?

so they can "pick up" from a rank at the new science park station

Why would the vehicle need to be licensed for private hire for that?

Hackney carriages can lawfully be used hirings, whether within their
licensed area or outside it.

There are no circumstances in which a taxi being additionally licensed
for (so-called) private hire conveys advantage to anyone.

You seem to have missed the problem here.
Because (it appears that) there are currently no ranks in South Cambs
and nowhere that driving around looking for a hire is worthwhile, there
are no licensed hackney cabs in SC. They all content themselves with
operating as mini cabs offering their pre-booked (5 minutes before by
phone) service both in SC and Cambridge City.

I can see that that is a problem *if true* - but a whole district
without a single taxi-rank - not even outside a railway station - seems
unlikely.

The problem should be addressed by the district council appointing some
taxi-ranks.

But Roland (and others), not unreasonably, think that there will be
business customers arriving at the new SP station thinking that the
20-25 minute walk to the company that they are visiting is too far,
expecting to jump in a un-booked cab.

One would think so.

But SC cabs won't be able to pick up there because none of them are
licensed to ply for hire and City cabs won't be able to pick up there
because (by a few 100 yards) the station is in SC.

What (when it's at home) is (the chimera) a "cab not licensed to ply for
hire"?

If a vehicle isn't licensed to ply for hire, it isn't a cab (or taxi, or
hackney carriage, or any other synonym you prefer).

So does the area which contains this railway station have any cabs
licensed (and "licensed" means "licensed under the Town Police Clauses
Act 1847")?

If the answer is "yes" - then they can ply at the station (if there's a
rank).

if the answer is "no", then the council needs to licence some cabs.

So people are suggesting solutions to this problem.

Be sure that there is one first. And be sure that the answer ("licence
some cabs under the 1847 Act" isn't quite so obvious.

In message , at 14:42:08 on Wed, 18
Jun 2014, JNugent remarked:
I don't think the same vehicle can be licensed as both a hackney
carriage and hire car.

What need would there be for it?

so they can "pick up" from a rank at the new science park station

Why would the vehicle need to be licensed for private hire for that?

It doesn't, but it needs a hackney licence for the station area
(currently SC).

Hackney carriages can lawfully be used hirings, whether within their
licensed area or outside it.

There are no circumstances in which a taxi being additionally licensed
for (so-called) private hire conveys advantage to anyone.

Agreed. (Assuming of course that a hackney licence allows you to pick up
outside your area, without a private hire licence for that area).

You seem to have missed the problem here.
Because (it appears that) there are currently no ranks in South Cambs
and nowhere that driving around looking for a hire is worthwhile, there
are no licensed hackney cabs in SC. They all content themselves with
operating as mini cabs offering their pre-booked (5 minutes before by
phone) service both in SC and Cambridge City.

I can see that that is a problem *if true* - but a whole district
without a single taxi-rank - not even outside a railway station - seems
unlikely.

South Cambs is a collection of what we call "necklace villages" and
their stations. I'm quite prepared to believe none [village High Streets
or stations] are big enough to warrant a taxi.

The problem should be addressed by the district council appointing some
taxi-ranks.

I think you mean Hackney Licences. They can. but currently there doesn't
appear to be any demand from the potential drivers.

But Roland (and others), not unreasonably, think that there will be
business customers arriving at the new SP station thinking that the
20-25 minute walk to the company that they are visiting is too far,
expecting to jump in a un-booked cab.

One would think so.

But SC cabs won't be able to pick up there because none of them are
licensed to ply for hire and City cabs won't be able to pick up there
because (by a few 100 yards) the station is in SC.

What (when it's at home) is (the chimera) a "cab not licensed to ply
for hire"?

A minicab. (aka private hire).

If a vehicle isn't licensed to ply for hire, it isn't a cab (or taxi,
or hackney carriage, or any other synonym you prefer).

So does the area which contains this railway station have any cabs
licensed (and "licensed" means "licensed under the Town Police Clauses
Act 1847")?

If the answer is "yes" - then they can ply at the station (if there's a
rank).

It's "yes", but there are only a handful. Not enough even for a rank at
one station.

if the answer is "no", then the council needs to licence some cabs.

No, the drivers need to apply. But isn't it a bit of an imposition for
drivers to have to get themselves licenced so they can pick up from just
one two-hundred yard street in an entire half-a-county?

So people are suggesting solutions to this problem.

Be sure that there is one first. And be sure that the answer ("licence
some cabs under the 1847 Act" isn't quite so obvious.

There are cumbersome solution. We are looking for a simple, common-sense
one. For example, a way to allow the hundreds of City Hackneys to be
able to operate at this new place, which just happens to be a landlocked
island of South Cambs just outside the City (and only accessible by a
road to the City).
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
JNugent wrote:
On 18/06/2014 08:11, tim..... wrote:


You seem to have missed the problem here.
Because (it appears that) there are currently no ranks in South Cambs
and nowhere that driving around looking for a hire is worthwhile, there
are no licensed hackney cabs in SC. They all content themselves with
operating as mini cabs offering their pre-booked (5 minutes before by
phone) service both in SC and Cambridge City.

I can see that that is a problem *if true* - but a whole district
without a single taxi-rank - not even outside a railway station - seems
unlikely.

Eh? Why? There AREN'T any locations that would pay a taxi to rank
at - for example, all of the railway stations are tiny.

The problem should be addressed by the district council appointing some
taxi-ranks.

Why? I can't think of anything more futile. They wouldn't be used.

But SC cabs won't be able to pick up there because none of them are
licensed to ply for hire and City cabs won't be able to pick up there
because (by a few 100 yards) the station is in SC.

What (when it's at home) is (the chimera) a "cab not licensed to ply for
hire"?

A cabriolet that is a private hire vehicle? :-)

If a vehicle isn't licensed to ply for hire, it isn't a cab (or taxi, or
hackney carriage, or any other synonym you prefer).

You are being unreasonably pedantic - I could compete, but won't.

So does the area which contains this railway station have any cabs
licensed (and "licensed" means "licensed under the Town Police Clauses
Act 1847")?

Probably not. Certainly not many. There's no good reason it should
have.

if the answer is "no", then the council needs to licence some cabs.

A completely insane idea, because this location would be virtually
the ONLY place that it was economic to do so! Unless they were
licensed to ply within the city.

So people are suggesting solutions to this problem.

Be sure that there is one first. And be sure that the answer ("licence
some cabs under the 1847 Act" isn't quite so obvious.

There is a simple one: Cambridge City and South Cambridgeshire get
together and arrange a licensing deal. No, it doesn't have to be
a joint licensing authority - a simple arrangement would be enough.
That Act gives ample room to do that.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 17/06/2014 00:04, JNugent wrote:
On 16/06/2014 17:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Because I'm not talking about the status of the land, it could be owned
by Father Xmas for all I care. What matters is whether it's "inside
South Cambs" or "inside the City" for hackney-hailing purposes.

All that's needed is a derogation which says that for taxi-hailing
purposes it's deemed to be in both.

Is that legally possible? Can one spot be in two districts
simultaneously?

As long as nobody looks at it.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 18/06/2014 15:02, Roland Perry wrote:

Jun 2014, JNugent remarked:

[in response to:]
I don't think the same vehicle can be licensed as both a hackney
carriage and hire car.

What need would there be for it?

so they can "pick up" from a rank at the new science park station

Why would the vehicle need to be licensed for private hire for that?

It doesn't, but it needs a hackney licence for the station area
(currently SC).

If the vehicle is licensed as a taxi, it creates no further advantage
for it to be additionally licensed as a PH car.

Hackney carriages can lawfully be used [for private] hirings, whether
within their licensed area or outside it.
There are no circumstances in which a taxi being additionally licensed
for (so-called) private hire conveys advantage to anyone.

Agreed. (Assuming of course that a hackney licence allows you to pick up
outside your area, without a private hire licence for that area).

Only on private hirings.

You seem to have missed the problem here.
Because (it appears that) there are currently no ranks in South Cambs
and nowhere that driving around looking for a hire is worthwhile, there
are no licensed hackney cabs in SC. They all content themselves with
operating as mini cabs offering their pre-booked (5 minutes before by
phone) service both in SC and Cambridge City.

I can see that that is a problem *if true* - but a whole district
without a single taxi-rank - not even outside a railway station -
seems unlikely.

South Cambs is a collection of what we call "necklace villages" and
their stations. I'm quite prepared to believe none [village High Streets
or stations] are big enough to warrant a taxi.

The problem should be addressed by the district council appointing
some taxi-ranks.

I think you mean Hackney Licences. They can. but currently there doesn't
appear to be any demand from the potential drivers.

But Roland (and others), not unreasonably, think that there will be
business customers arriving at the new SP station thinking that the
20-25 minute walk to the company that they are visiting is too far,
expecting to jump in a un-booked cab.

One would think so.

But SC cabs won't be able to pick up there because none of them are
licensed to ply for hire and City cabs won't be able to pick up there
because (by a few 100 yards) the station is in SC.

What (when it's at home) is (the chimera) a "cab not licensed to ply
for hire"?

A minicab. (aka private hire).

A cab is a cab. A private hire car is something else.

If a vehicle isn't licensed to ply for hire, it isn't a cab (or taxi,
or hackney carriage, or any other synonym you prefer).
So does the area which contains this railway station have any cabs
licensed (and "licensed" means "licensed under the Town Police Clauses
Act 1847")?
If the answer is "yes" - then they can ply at the station (if there's
a rank).

It's "yes", but there are only a handful. Not enough even for a rank at
one station.

if the answer is "no", then the council needs to licence some cabs.

No, the drivers need to apply. But isn't it a bit of an imposition for
drivers to have to get themselves licenced so they can pick up from just
one two-hundred yard street in an entire half-a-county?

No.

The law demands more of taxi-drivers than it does of private hire drivers.

So people are suggesting solutions to this problem.

Be sure that there is one first. And be sure that the answer ("licence
some cabs under the 1847 Act" isn't quite so obvious.

There are cumbersome solution. We are looking for a simple, common-sense
one. For example, a way to allow the hundreds of City Hackneys to be
able to operate at this new place, which just happens to be a landlocked
island of South Cambs just outside the City (and only accessible by a
road to the City).

If that is the solution, it can only be achieved by a local government
boundary change.

"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 18/06/2014 15:02, Roland Perry wrote:

Jun 2014, JNugent remarked:


A minicab. (aka private hire).

A cab is a cab.

I'm sorry, it's not

You're the one nitpicking trivial technical detail and the term "cab" has no
legal meaning.

It means different things to different people (this conversation's confusing
enough without this aggro)


tim

In article ,
(JNugent) wrote:

On 18/06/2014 15:02, Roland Perry wrote:

Jun 2014, JNugent remarked:

[in response to:]
I don't think the same vehicle can be licensed as both a hackney
carriage and hire car.

What need would there be for it?

so they can "pick up" from a rank at the new science park station

Why would the vehicle need to be licensed for private hire for that?

It doesn't, but it needs a hackney licence for the station area
(currently SC).

If the vehicle is licensed as a taxi, it creates no further advantage
for it to be additionally licensed as a PH car.

Indeed so.

Hackney carriages can lawfully be used [for private] hirings, whether
within their licensed area or outside it.
There are no circumstances in which a taxi being additionally licensed
for (so-called) private hire conveys advantage to anyone.

Agreed. (Assuming of course that a hackney licence allows you to pick up
outside your area, without a private hire licence for that area).

Only on private hirings.

Indeed so.

You seem to have missed the problem here.
Because (it appears that) there are currently no ranks in South Cambs
and nowhere that driving around looking for a hire is worthwhile,
there are no licensed hackney cabs in SC. They all content themselves
with operating as mini cabs offering their pre-booked (5 minutes
before by phone) service both in SC and Cambridge City.

I can see that that is a problem *if true* - but a whole district
without a single taxi-rank - not even outside a railway station -
seems unlikely.

South Cambs is a collection of what we call "necklace villages" and
their stations. I'm quite prepared to believe none [village High Streets
or stations] are big enough to warrant a taxi.

Arguably Whittlesford station would most likely merit a taxi rank. There
might be one of the station forecourt of course. That would be non-statutory.

The problem should be addressed by the district council appointing
some taxi-ranks.

I think you mean Hackney Licences. They can. but currently there doesn't
appear to be any demand from the potential drivers.

But Roland (and others), not unreasonably, think that there will be
business customers arriving at the new SP station thinking that the
20-25 minute walk to the company that they are visiting is too far,
expecting to jump in a un-booked cab.

One would think so.

But SC cabs won't be able to pick up there because none of them are
licensed to ply for hire and City cabs won't be able to pick up there
because (by a few 100 yards) the station is in SC.

What (when it's at home) is (the chimera) a "cab not licensed to ply
for hire"?

A minicab. (aka private hire).

A cab is a cab. A private hire car is something else.

The public outside London regard both as taxis, hence the use of the terms
"hackney" and "private hire car" to distinguish them clearly.

Because of the long standing standard vehicle requirements in London,
combined with the lack of a legal framework for hire cars for so long after
the rest of the country got one, I accept that is probably different in
London.

If a vehicle isn't licensed to ply for hire, it isn't a cab (or taxi,
or hackney carriage, or any other synonym you prefer).
So does the area which contains this railway station have any cabs
licensed (and "licensed" means "licensed under the Town Police Clauses
Act 1847")?
If the answer is "yes" - then they can ply at the station (if there's
a rank).

It's "yes", but there are only a handful. Not enough even for a rank at
one station.

if the answer is "no", then the council needs to licence some cabs.

No, the drivers need to apply. But isn't it a bit of an imposition for
drivers to have to get themselves licenced so they can pick up from just
one two-hundred yard street in an entire half-a-county?

No.

The law demands more of taxi-drivers than it does of private hire
drivers.

Not necessarily. Outside London the requirements may be essentially the
same. They are in Cambridge, including a knowledge test for both.

So people are suggesting solutions to this problem.

Be sure that there is one first. And be sure that the answer ("licence
some cabs under the 1847 Act" isn't quite so obvious.

There are cumbersome solution. We are looking for a simple, common-sense
one. For example, a way to allow the hundreds of City Hackneys to be
able to operate at this new place, which just happens to be a landlocked
island of South Cambs just outside the City (and only accessible by a
road to the City).

If that is the solution, it can only be achieved by a local
government boundary change.

Or a joint taxi licensing authority. I talked to my Labour successor as
licensing chair tonight. He indicated no change in council policy under the
new regime and that he will be taking the idea forward soon. Good I say.

--
Colin Rosenstiel