Crown, i.e. an apolitical head of state
Independence of judiciary and officers of state from government
Language
Common law
Culture, including literature
Historical experience
Currency & economy
Philosophical outlook on World affairs
Belief in fair play
Freedom from all but wholly necessary governmental interference (which is
philosophically opposite the the civil law "rights"-orientated philosophy
of
the Napoleonic system in vogue in most European countries)


Countries within the UK don't have all share the qualities you indicate but
on the whole we've learnt to live and work together so why can't that apply
to the rest of Europe?





Which of the above list are not shared by which constituent part of the U.K.?

Marc.

Crown, i.e. an apolitical head of state

Not particularly significant, especially not in this day and age where
polls suggest a large percentage of people don't care about the
monarchy.

Look, this is NOT about personalities, it is about having a Head of State who
is not a party-politician. If you want some clapped out political has-been as
your Head of State that's fine, but it is not the British way, and (in my
opinion), thank God for that!

Culture, including literature

Someone living in a remote village in Scotland has less in common with
a Londoner than someone living in another European city. The culture of
differents parts of the UK is as different as the culture of different
parts of Europe.

That's your opinion, but a remote Scotsman is (in my opinion) still more likely
to share my language than someone from abroad.


Historical experience

Well, most parts of the UK have fought wars against most other parts,
but then the same is true of Europe.

Yes, but for the last few centuries have fought was TOGETHER, and AGAINST most
of those European countries who are now attempting to govern us.

Currency & economy

This has never been true. The economy in the North is nothing like the
economy in the South.


There may be variations in the economy, but we share a currency AND a unified
economic policy e.g. interest rates etc.

Philosophical outlook on World affairs

Really? I think we're as divided in the UK as any other European
country.

Well we still have a U.K.-based foreign policy.

Belief in fair play

Oh come on now, that's just ridiculous. For a start, we don't seem to
believe very much in "fair play" (football hooligans make wonderful
ambassadors for "fair play", don't they?). And secondly, you seem to be
trying to say that Europeans don't believe in fair play, which is
really just xenophobia.

I made the point advisedly, in an "E.U." context. All of those pettifogging
rules imposed by the E.U. (everything from the shape of bananas to the colur of
paraffin, to more serious matters like fishing quotas) we rigidly impose and
obey, since that is what we (in the U.K.) perceive to be the right and fair
thing to do. Even if it causes us significant harm, which is does. Most
patently the rest of the E.U. couldn't give a fcuk, and they are not "into"
fairness or fairplay but proudly (and who could blame them - what do they owe
us?) base their policies and enforcement of them simply on self-interest.

Freedom from all but wholly necessary governmental interference

This is just propaganda for your own political beliefs, and an attempt
at insisting that the whole of the UK shares them. Come to think of it,
most of your post is.

I admit that there is more and more governmental interference, especially under
the present Government (paradoxically, a lot of this emanates from the E.U.
anyway) and you are entitled to your opinion of my post.

That does not, however, detract from the philosophical difference that exists
between our common law-based heritage, whereby the citizen is free to do as he
pleases, except insofar as specific restrictions are imposed by statute or
common law. The European civil law-based tradition is that rights are "given"
(in documents like "declarations of human rights" or written constitutions.
That is a fundamental difference of approach and one doesn't need to be a law
graduate (which I am) to understand the nature of the difference.

Marc.

Thought this might be something to do with the Wombles (Overground,
Underground, Wandering Free - or something like that).
But I do find a lot of people seem confused by the fact that the Underground
runs overground for much of its lengths. And at West Hampstead, for instance,
with three stations to choose from, some people do get confused as to what line
runs where. Whether the signs you describe will help, I don't know, but without
going into whether people are "stupid", the system is confusing, and a lot of
people do get confused.
And then there are the American tourists who look mystified when I tell them
that the bus they have decided suits them, with a "N" before the number, is a
Night Bus. "But it's night now!", one protests - it is 6.30pm OK, so
Americans are in a category of their own - like the ones I was directing to a
National Express for "Leicester" before I realised they really wanted to go
Leicester Square, or the two that asked for "Buckingham", but meant the palace.

Still, Londoners are not always clever, either.

On 21 Feb 2004 18:30:38 GMT, (Mait001) wrote:

That's your opinion, but a remote Scotsman is (in my opinion) still more likely
to share my language than someone from abroad.

How about someone from the Gaelic-seaking Hebrides and an Irishman
from (non-Irish speaking except maybe in school) Dublin?

I can understand many Dutchmen speaking English as a second language
better than I can many Britons speaking it as their first. I've found
it easier to ask for help from staff at Utrecht Centraal than at
Clapham Junction...

Historical experience

Well, most parts of the UK have fought wars against most other parts,
but then the same is true of Europe.

Yes, but for the last few centuries have fought was TOGETHER, and AGAINST most
of those European countries who are now attempting to govern us.

Of the current EU, since 1900 the UK has fought against Germany,
Austria, Finland*, Italy

The UK has fought together with France, Belgium, Luxembourg,
Netherlands, Denmark, Italy, Portugal.

There was also UK involvement in post-WWII Greece.

*Perhaps a bit of a special case. .


Currency & economy

This has never been true. The economy in the North is nothing like the
economy in the South.


There may be variations in the economy, but we share a currency AND a unified
economic policy e.g. interest rates etc.

Spain and Finland share a currency. They even have the same bank
notes, so no "Scottish pound note" problems.

Philosophical outlook on World affairs

Really? I think we're as divided in the UK as any other European
country.

Well we still have a U.K.-based foreign policy.

Only because that is how things are set up at the moment.
Traditionally the Scots have been more friendly towards the French
than the English

....

I made the point advisedly, in an "E.U." context. All of those pettifogging
rules imposed by the E.U. (everything from the shape of bananas to the colur of
paraffin, to more serious matters like fishing quotas) we rigidly impose and
obey, since that is what we (in the U.K.) perceive to be the right and fair
thing to do.

Even ignoring the tabloid inventions, many of these "European" rules
are British gold-plating. By blaiming them on "Europe" the politicans
can shift debate away from themselves. Look at how 91/440 is used to
try to wriggle out of what Britain did to its railways.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

serious matters like fishing quotas) we rigidly impose and
obey, since that is what we (in the U.K.) perceive to be the right and fair
thing to do.

Even ignoring the tabloid inventions, many of these "European" rules
are British gold-plating. By blaiming them on "Europe" the politicans
can shift debate away from themselves. Look at how 91/440 is used to
try to wriggle out of what Britain did to its railways.

--
Arthur Figgis

Try telling that to a Scottish fisherman who has had his livelihood taken away
so that Spanish trawlers can have fre access to the fish stocks in British (or
Scottish, if you like) waters. That was considered, by Edward Heath, a price
well worth paying so that we could join the club which, according to you, is
more beneficial to the Scots than being part of the U.K.

Marc.

In article , ] (Arthur Figgis) wrote:

Yes, but for the last few centuries have fought was TOGETHER, and
AGAINST most
of those European countries who are now attempting to govern us.

Of the current EU, since 1900 the UK has fought against Germany,
Austria, Finland*, Italy

I think "the last few centuries" might be construed as going back further
than 104 years! In which case France and Spain can be included.

--
Peter Beale

Finland*

when did we go to war with Finland?

In message , Cast_Iron
writes
Having got onto this topic perhaps someone can help me out. The Tories
are against closer integration into Europe claiming loss of sovereignty
etc. If that is really the case why are they also against returning
sovereignty to Scotland and Wales?

Because the Conservatives, up until recently, was called the
Conservative and Unionist Party and has historically been against
anything that threatened the 'unity' of the United Kingdom. The modern
Tory party is an amalgamation of the original Conservative party and the
Liberal Unionists opposed to Irish Home Rule.

(Using the word modern around anything to do with Conservatives is an
oxymoron.)

--
Martin @ Strawberry Hill

On 22 Feb 2004 17:34:56 GMT, (Proctor46) wrote:

Finland*

when did we go to war with Finland?

Late 1941. The Finns wanted help with the Continuation War against the
USSR - which was already Britain's ally against Germany. The Germans
were willing/able to help Finland, as they were also fighting the
USSR, and so the UK end up at war with Finland. I'm not sure if there
was any actual shooting between the UK and Finland, as the UK had its
own problems to worry about. (transport topic - I was forced to watch
a video on the Finland-USSR wars while on-board a VR train)
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

In article ,
Proctor46 wrote:
Finland*

when did we go to war with Finland?

1853 ish. But it was run by the Russians at the time. As part of the
Crimean War we (and the French) bombarded the island fortress just off
Helsinki.

It was the other bit of Russia we could reach by sea.

The fortress had originally been built with French assistance. That was
when Finland was part of Sweden!

John