Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 20:41:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

One day someone might reveal all the gory history but I've got no
actual way into the detail these days. I'm merely speculating from the
tiny snippets I read here and elsewhere. Someone sent me this link

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

The fifth page of the file, but numbered page 4.

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 20:41:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 18:24:48 on
Sat, 9 Aug 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 15:23:53 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

[1] ATOC in October 2010:

"ATOC is co-ordinating train company input into this exercise and
it is hoped that by the end of 2012, all TfL and National Rail
Oyster readers will be able to accept ITSO based Travelcards along
with Oyster and magnetic stripe tickets."

Does this qualify as vapourware?? Paging Mr Corfield!

Not sure why I am being paged. You're in charge of vapourware.

I was wondering if you agreed this time (a project with a waaaay too
optimistic deadline announced).

You keep quoting quotes by others.

They are all people deeply involved in the project, saying when it'll be
ready.

So? I've known for about 18 months that the project was running late.
I'm not exactly bothered that ATOC, since replaced by the Rail
Delivery Group, can't be bothered to update a web page. There are
thousands of web pages with out of date project details on them.

I'm not the least bit surprised that
there have been delays to this stuff - it's complex involved stuff
with probably far, far too many people involved but that's government
for you. The last thing anyone needs is for this sort of technology
to go spectacularly wrong when being used by the public. This will
make people risk averse.

The fact is that the Dft sponsored project to modify the TfL estate to
read ITSO cards has been completed. It was delayed for a number of
reasons including the DfT changing their requirements. As has been
mentioned many times this info was in the public domain via updates in
TfL's quarterly investment reports. The thing that is delaying actual
"switch on" is the need to conclude a commercial agreement with each
TOC before their ITSO cards can be accepted. Again this isn't new
news.

Hmm, four years and counting there. So is it Hip Hip Hooray to the
engineers for getting the gates ready first?

It's of little relevance to me in terms of my rail travel so I'm
neither cheering or crying. I'm not a member of the Public Accounts
Committee or the Transport Select Committee so I don't have the
opportunity to drag in DfT officials and put them through a public
interrogation. One day we might find out the detail of what went
wrong but then again we may not.

ps I'm not sure what's so complicated about negotiations to allow TOCs
who are already selling paper Travelcards load onto an ITSO card they
already issue[1]. Isn't it TfL who have the "agree" to accept them (and
if money is involved in loading them, which way is it flowing?)

[1] SWT, Southern and EMT at the moment, I suppose.

Sales, acceptance and accounting for Travelcards are covered in the
Travelcard agreement which all TOCs are party to. I suspect trying to
modify the Travelcard Agreement just to reflect ITSO based products is
a step too far. Asking all TOCs to be involved and to sign off when
some have no ITSO products on their network and may not do so for
years is just asking for years of delay.

Given each TOC will have their own HOPS and it will need to talk to
Tfl's systems and there will need to be data exchange, sharing,
revenue settlement etc I can see why there may be complications. I
assume TfL and Southern have "broken the back" of ectually
establishing what an agreement looks like. Whether they've got an
agreement that covers all envisaged ITSO products plus extras like
Oyster at Gatwick Airport I couldn't say.

I also suspect that there is a lot of negotiation going on trying to
get Contactless Payment Cards accepted for NR travel within the zones.
That has probably taken priority over any ITSO acceptance agreements.

One day someone might reveal all the gory history but I've got no
actual way into the detail these days. I'm merely speculating from the
tiny snippets I read here and elsewhere. Someone sent me this link

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

Interesting. Roland will also be pleased to see the plans for gates at Ely
on page 7. /-)

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 02:33:01
on Sun, 10 Aug 2014, remarked:
http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

The Bluetooth ticketing option is a new one on me.

Apparently this allows an App on a smartphone to buy e-tickets
wirelessly in a suitably equipped station.

Just what we need, another balkanised technology to add to Oyster, ITSO,
Contactless, barcodes, NFC-on-phone and of course GSM and Wifi already
contacting booking sites from smartphones.

But it has attractions for a station operator because it means people
travelling from there can be constrained to using that TOC's booking
engine and not the one they normally use (unless these facilities are
ruled to be something akin to an "Impartial Point of Sale" allowing
access to all booking engines, which seems unlikely).

Of course, that begs the question of whether these "Bluetooth tickets"
from your friendly local GA station will be available for routes off-GA,
which could be as popularly mundane as Cambridge-King Cross. (ie Kings
Cross, and quite soon all of Thameslink, would have to be fitted out to
accept them).

In the mean time, it's a welcome addition to my V*p**rw*r* list.

Interesting. Roland will also be pleased to see the plans for gates at Ely
on page 7. /-)

The station is so shallow that I struggle to see how they could put
barriers inside, even if they widen the ticket office area. Currently
there are significant people-jams when trains arrive from the south in
the late afternoon, which take ages to clear because of the narrow doors
from the platform and outdoors. (Not helped by the extra footprint used
by passengers with bikes, many of which are retrieved from racks on the
platform and are therefore doomed to make two trips a day through the
barriers).

The commonplace queues inside the ticket office also serve to obstruct
people-flows like that.

From a purely engineering perspective the best place to put the barriers
would be in a little compound on the platform, like they have at
Grantham:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_GRA/plan.html?rtnloc=GRA

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/ht...s/1964-0030025
..html

Although the peak flow capacity at Ely would still be questionable.

The effect on trainspotters, and people accessing the shop/cafe on the
platform, while not actually travelling, is simply something that's been
caught in the crossfire all over the network
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:33:54 on
Sat, 9 Aug 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:

[1] ATOC in October 2010:

"ATOC is co-ordinating train company input into this exercise and
it is hoped that by the end of 2012, all TfL and National Rail
Oyster readers will be able to accept ITSO based Travelcards along
with Oyster and magnetic stripe tickets."

Does this qualify as vapourware?? Paging Mr Corfield!

Not sure why I am being paged. You're in charge of vapourware.

I was wondering if you agreed this time (a project with a waaaay too
optimistic deadline announced).

You keep quoting quotes by others.

They are all people deeply involved in the project, saying when it'll be
ready.

So? I've known for about 18 months that the project was running late.
I'm not exactly bothered that ATOC, since replaced by the Rail
Delivery Group, can't be bothered to update a web page. There are
thousands of web pages with out of date project details on them.

That page (in common with the others I quote on similar matters) aren't
project plans being updated, they are one-off press releases saying
something along the lines of "Aren't we clever, lots of new ticketing
technology just around the corner".

What I'm pointing out is that very often (and especially it seems for
new ticketing) these estimates are wildly optimistic and cannot be
relied upon at all. Other than as a warning that perhaps many of the
other things organisations claim to be in the pipeline are also likely
to be over-optimistic.

I see, for example, that the new Cambridge Science Park station is
already six months late (work started, on schedule, constructing the
access road last month, and the station was supposed to be finished in
time for the timetable change in December 2015. However it's already
slipped to the next timetable change in May 2016.)

ps I'm not sure what's so complicated about negotiations to allow TOCs
who are already selling paper Travelcards load onto an ITSO card they
already issue[1]. Isn't it TfL who have the "agree" to accept them (and
if money is involved in loading them, which way is it flowing?)

[1] SWT, Southern and EMT at the moment, I suppose.

Sales, acceptance and accounting for Travelcards are covered in the
Travelcard agreement which all TOCs are party to. I suspect trying to
modify the Travelcard Agreement just to reflect ITSO based products is
a step too far. Asking all TOCs to be involved and to sign off when
some have no ITSO products on their network and may not do so for
years is just asking for years of delay.

This is something which should be done by ATOC on behalf of all the
TOCs.

Given each TOC will have their own HOPS and it will need to talk to
Tfl's systems and there will need to be data exchange, sharing,
revenue settlement etc I can see why there may be complications.

Again, I don't know what's so different about revenue settlement at the
point of use of a Travelcard (rather than when it's sold). When it's
being used all that needs to be done is validate that it's "in Zone".

Or are you saying that unbeknown to the passengers they are counting how
much the Travelcard is actually (rather than potentially) used on which
routes, and divvying up the revenue retrospectively?

Someone sent me this link

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

That's got one of the worst user-interfaces I've ever seen (not your
fault, obviously).

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel to
London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well with
ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.

I'm not holding my breath to be able to add a GA (or any other
'foreign') ITSO ticket onto my TSGN card[1], or onto a local Stagecoach
bus ITSO card.

[1] Whatever branding it gets, currently it's Southern "the Key" of
course. Have they decided to brand themselves GTR long term, or is that
just a working title?
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

I see, for example, that the new Cambridge Science Park station is
already six months late (work started, on schedule, constructing the
access road last month, and the station was supposed to be finished
in time for the timetable change in December 2015. However it's
already slipped to the next timetable change in May 2016.)

It's a lot later than that. When we discussing it at the County Rail
Strategy Group we were planning on opening by 2010.

Someone sent me this link

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

That's got one of the worst user-interfaces I've ever seen (not your
fault, obviously).

You get used to it. :-)

It would be nice if they explained what the acronym "STA" used several times
actually means. It's obviously something to do with the direct franchise
award.

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel
to London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well
with ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.

Since they don't recognise their own tickets at the gates sometimes I
wouldn't be in the least surprised.

Will they ever issue Super Off-Peak Day Travelcards that are recognised by
SWT gates for that matter?

[1] Whatever branding it gets, currently it's Southern "the Key" of
course. Have they decided to brand themselves GTR long term, or is
that just a working title?

They are branding the line from King's Lynn to London as "Great Northern",
surely? Will GTR be any more prominent that LER was?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Given each TOC will have their own HOPS and it will need to talk to

Tfl's systems and there will need to be data exchange, sharing,

revenue settlement etc I can see why there may be complications.



Again, I don't know what's so different about revenue settlement at the

point of use of a Travelcard (rather than when it's sold). When it's

being used all that needs to be done is validate that it's "in Zone".



Or are you saying that unbeknown to the passengers they are counting how

much the Travelcard is actually (rather than potentially) used on which

routes, and divvying up the revenue retrospectively?



Someone sent me this link



http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int



That's got one of the worst user-interfaces I've ever seen (not your

fault, obviously).



- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned

by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.



I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel to

London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well with

ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.





Southern are now advertising that Travelcards are now available on The Key.

"New key smartcard tickets available

Travelling into and around London? Now available on the key smartcard are weekly, monthly and annual season tickets inclusive of a travelcard, which will allow you to use trains, buses, trams and London Underground.

You can also purchase single and return tickets from any key-enabled Southern station outside the London travelcard area to any Southern station in the London zones.

Tickets can be purchased from southernrailway.com or from a Southern self service ticket machine"

https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 08:23:59 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 22:33:54 on
Sat, 9 Aug 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:

That page (in common with the others I quote on similar matters) aren't
project plans being updated, they are one-off press releases saying
something along the lines of "Aren't we clever, lots of new ticketing
technology just around the corner".

What I'm pointing out is that very often (and especially it seems for
new ticketing) these estimates are wildly optimistic and cannot be
relied upon at all. Other than as a warning that perhaps many of the
other things organisations claim to be in the pipeline are also likely
to be over-optimistic.

OK they are crap at managing news. Next problem!

ps I'm not sure what's so complicated about negotiations to allow TOCs
who are already selling paper Travelcards load onto an ITSO card they
already issue[1]. Isn't it TfL who have the "agree" to accept them (and
if money is involved in loading them, which way is it flowing?)

[1] SWT, Southern and EMT at the moment, I suppose.

Sales, acceptance and accounting for Travelcards are covered in the
Travelcard agreement which all TOCs are party to. I suspect trying to
modify the Travelcard Agreement just to reflect ITSO based products is
a step too far. Asking all TOCs to be involved and to sign off when
some have no ITSO products on their network and may not do so for
years is just asking for years of delay.

This is something which should be done by ATOC on behalf of all the
TOCs.

They don't though. Each TOC is represented in a "scheme" brought
together by ATOC. ATOC cannot override the commercial interests of
individual TOCs. Well that was how it was a number of years ago. It
might have changed but I doubt it. I can't see any TOC surrendering
their commercial interest to a central body for the purposes of
negotiation.

Having gone back and checked the latest report I see TfL are saying
the DfT are negotiated the agreements so I apologise for misleading
you in previous posts.

Given each TOC will have their own HOPS and it will need to talk to
Tfl's systems and there will need to be data exchange, sharing,
revenue settlement etc I can see why there may be complications.

Again, I don't know what's so different about revenue settlement at the
point of use of a Travelcard (rather than when it's sold). When it's
being used all that needs to be done is validate that it's "in Zone".

Funny I always thought the Travelcard apportionment was done on a trip
basis by mode but I might be wrong. Again I doubt smartcard data is
accepted as a primary data source rather than the long established
survey process. I do expect the parties look at Oyster data as an
additional source.

Or are you saying that unbeknown to the passengers they are counting how
much the Travelcard is actually (rather than potentially) used on which
routes, and divvying up the revenue retrospectively?

Of course they are counting journey data. If it wasn't important why
do Southern insist that the Key card is touched in and out even when
you have a single ticket on the card?

Quite whether they are cross checking against Travelcards I don't
know. I would expect TOCs to look at the data to see how many trips
are made with season tickets and how many are normal commutes and how
many are leisure journeys. That's just an interesting bit of data any
rail company would want to know if it can be reasonably certain about
the data quality.

I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel to
London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well with
ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.

Well that's for Govia and AGA to sort out. There is no central
"guiding hand" which is why you get the nonsense of some mag tickets
with special validities not being recognised.

I'm not holding my breath to be able to add a GA (or any other
'foreign') ITSO ticket onto my TSGN card[1], or onto a local Stagecoach
bus ITSO card.

I think the bus stuff might be a step too far *unless* there is a lot
of customer pressure to force Stagecoach and Govia to work together.
There is actually a fair bit of overlap along the line of the TSGN
franchise so never say never.

I expect South East Flexible Ticketing will have to sort out inter
operator acceptance for valid rail tickets. To not do so would be
lunacy.

[1] Whatever branding it gets, currently it's Southern "the Key" of
course. Have they decided to brand themselves GTR long term, or is that
just a working title?

All Go Ahead businesses use the "Key" brand name for their transport
smartcard so I can't see TSGN being any different. They refer to the
Key in their documents related to the franchise changes.

The stakeholder material I was given in July only refers to "Smartcard
ticketing" being introduced in 2015, first item after "Southern and Gatwick
Express join" [GTR].

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 15:22:11 on
Mon, 11 Aug 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
Given each TOC will have their own HOPS and it will need to talk to
Tfl's systems and there will need to be data exchange, sharing,
revenue settlement etc I can see why there may be complications.

Again, I don't know what's so different about revenue settlement at the
point of use of a Travelcard (rather than when it's sold). When it's
being used all that needs to be done is validate that it's "in Zone".

Funny I always thought the Travelcard apportionment was done on a trip
basis by mode but I might be wrong.

Not a "trips done by that cardholder", though? There are too many places
with no gates, or locked out, for it to be able to count on that basis.

Again I doubt smartcard data is accepted as a primary data source
rather than the long established survey process. I do expect the
parties look at Oyster data as an additional source.

Long term apportionments based on surveys and other data sources is what
I'd expect. So the gates don't need to be precisely logging the
individual ITSO travelcards going through, just making sure they are
valid.

Or are you saying that unbeknown to the passengers they are counting how
much the Travelcard is actually (rather than potentially) used on which
routes, and divvying up the revenue retrospectively?

Of course they are counting journey data. If it wasn't important why
do Southern insist that the Key card is touched in and out even when
you have a single ticket on the card?

Like Oyster (who similarly insist even for Travelcard holders) to get
people into the habit, and so the people whose cards *do* need to be
touched in and out for validation purposes don't observe lots of other
people not touching them in and out.

Also, for singles, even if it's just a validator rather than a gate, the
touching in/out process will allow long term statistics to be gathered
about actual journeys made, rather than what's been bought (including
people making longer rather than shorter trips).

Quite whether they are cross checking against Travelcards I don't
know. I would expect TOCs to look at the data to see how many trips
are made with season tickets and how many are normal commutes and how
many are leisure journeys. That's just an interesting bit of data any
rail company would want to know if it can be reasonably certain about
the data quality.

Again, that data is useful and by all means gather it. But there are too
many "holes" for it to be used to apportion the cost of supplying travel
to individual travelcard holders.

I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel to
London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well with
ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.

Well that's for Govia and AGA to sort out. There is no central
"guiding hand" which is why you get the nonsense of some mag tickets
with special validities not being recognised.

I'd expect the DfT would 'guide' them all, in order for SEFT to be a
success rather than a balkanised mess.

I'm not holding my breath to be able to add a GA (or any other
'foreign') ITSO ticket onto my TSGN card[1], or onto a local Stagecoach
bus ITSO card.

I think the bus stuff might be a step too far *unless* there is a lot
of customer pressure to force Stagecoach and Govia to work together.
There is actually a fair bit of overlap along the line of the TSGN
franchise so never say never.

I'm not suggesting inter-availability of ticketing (well, not yet,
although given you can buy a GA rail ticket with Stagecoach Plusbus,
that should be some sort of long term goal).

No, what I'm looking for is a reduction in card-bloat, so that I can
load my bus tickets, and different TOC tickets, separately onto one
card. The barriers can work out which single-mode ticket is the one they
are looking for when I touch in/out.

If that doesn't happen, I'm still not sure onto whose smartcard I'd
expect to load a ticket for an EMT train, on a route whose pricing was
set by XC, bought from the EC website and collected at a GA station.
[Ely-Peterborough on a Norwich-Liverpool train].

Quite likely the first casualty would be my ability to pick and choose
the booking site. Ultimately it may turn out (short term hopefully) that
only trips between same-TOC stations on tickets bought through that TOC
would work (loaded onto that TOC's card - but see below for acceptance
on-train when travelling on a different TOC).

Unfortunately, for my Ely-Peterborough trip one station is GA, the other
EC, neither is XC or EMT, EC doesn't serve the route and GA only serves
it 0.5tph.

I expect South East Flexible Ticketing will have to sort out inter
operator acceptance for valid rail tickets. To not do so would be
lunacy.

On the trains, of course. When I travel back from Cambridge to Ely it's
literally the luck of the draw whether I catch XC, GA or FCC; each of
them being 1tph (although not equally spread through the hour).

[1] Whatever branding it gets, currently it's Southern "the Key" of
course. Have they decided to brand themselves GTR long term, or is that
just a working title?

All Go Ahead businesses use the "Key" brand name for their transport
smartcard so I can't see TSGN being any different. They refer to the
Key in their documents related to the franchise changes.

I don't doubt they'll keep "the Key", but will there be an ongoing
"Southern the Key" and new "Thameslink the Key" and "Great Northern the
Key" cards, or will they rename the Southern product as "GTR[1] the Key"
and have it valid over all their routes?

[1] Or some other as yet unannounced branding like "Govia Capital
Connect" [only joking about the actual words there, but things like this
do matter, as FCC found out when the PIS at Kings Cross cropped them to
"First Capital Con"].
--
Roland Perry