Did you have to sit down and rest due to the shock of it working? ;-)



Thanks for the update btw.

--

Paul C

I was a little surprised that it all works. I wonder whether RPIs will be able to check the card..

In message , at 17:06:32 on
Mon, 8 Sep 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
Did you have to sit down and rest due to the shock of it working? ;-)

Thanks for the update btw.

I was a little surprised that it all works. I wonder whether RPIs will be able to check the card..

hmm - very good question. I hadn't thought about that but these
seismic changes in card acceptance [1] do present some interesting
revenue protection issues for TfL and the TOCs. I'm not aware that
new readers have been procured but I don't use rail services very
often these days so may have missed some changes.

One of the problems with one-TOC ITSO cards is their lack of
interavailability with other operators on the same route which people
take for granted with paper tickets.

I haven't seen the T&C for using Contactless cards on TfL (and I bet
neither have 99.99% of the people about to be using it). One way to do
revenue protection (as long as the T&C allow it) is to swipe the card
the same way an entry/exit barrier does, and then use the overnight
back-office system to decide to either ignore it as redundant [when
someone has been good] or use it to charge a penalty fare [when you
suspect they haven't].

Inevitably there will be false positives [a penalty fare charged when
not warranted] which should make a good story in the next day's Evening
Standard. Assuming that anyone notices, which I'm sure TfL will be
hoping they won't.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/09/2014 22:09, Roland Perry wrote:
[...]
I was a little surprised that it all works. I wonder whether RPIs
will be able to check the card..

hmm - very good question. I hadn't thought about that but these
seismic changes in card acceptance [1] do present some interesting
revenue protection issues for TfL and the TOCs. I'm not aware that
new readers have been procured but I don't use rail services very
often these days so may have missed some changes.

One of the problems with one-TOC ITSO cards is their lack of
interavailability with other operators on the same route which people
take for granted with paper tickets.

I haven't seen the T&C for using Contactless cards on TfL (and I bet
neither have 99.99% of the people about to be using it). [...]

The currently available T&Cs for contactless only cover bus travel:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/contactless-conditions-of-use.pdf

[...] One way to do
revenue protection (as long as the T&C allow it) is to swipe the card
the same way an entry/exit barrier does, and then use the overnight
back-office system to decide to either ignore it as redundant [when
someone has been good] or use it to charge a penalty fare [when you
suspect they haven't].

Inevitably there will be false positives [a penalty fare charged when
not warranted] which should make a good story in the next day's Evening
Standard. Assuming that anyone notices, which I'm sure TfL will be
hoping they won't.

In message , at 22:38:09 on Mon, 8 Sep 2014,
Mizter T remarked:
I haven't seen the T&C for using Contactless cards on TfL (and I bet
neither have 99.99% of the people about to be using it). [...]

The currently available T&Cs for contactless only cover bus travel:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/contactless-conditions-of-use.pdf

2.2 is especially bizar

"It is your responsibility to check the fare for your journey
before you travel"

Aren't buses flat-fare, and even if they weren't, what mechanisms exist
for you to either enter, or confirm, a fare taken from a contactless
card?

Anyway, 2.5 covers the RPI angle:

"You must be prepared to show your contactless payment card on
every journey you make with it. You must let an authorised
member of staff or a police officer inspect your contactless
payment card at any time during your journey if asked to do so.
You may be asked to touch your card on their portable card
reader as part of their inspection."

Important to remember (on a bus anyway) which card you touched in with!
If you forget on the tube (when it goes live) then there's the whole
'unresolved journey' thing to contend with.

I have a slight issue with the word "inspection", as I don't think the
fact you made a particular contactless payment is stored on the card, so
all they can really do (unless they have a way of downloading the
information from the bus before starting to examine cards) is grab your
data and then charge you a penalty fare or unresolved journey fee later.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:23:21 on
Tue, 9 Sep 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
On Tue, 9 Sep 2014 09:28:46 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

I have a slight issue with the word "inspection", as I don't think the
fact you made a particular contactless payment is stored on the card, so
all they can really do (unless they have a way of downloading the
information from the bus before starting to examine cards) is grab your
data and then charge you a penalty fare or unresolved journey fee later.

Inspectors request a print out from the ticket machine on boarding the
bus. This has a list of any CPCs used on that trip which the
inspectors then use to check against any cards presented by a
passenger.

A wonderfully manual way of implementing an e-ticket system! As bad as
MegaTrain, where they check off your P@H tickets from a manual list at
the gateline.

I've only seen it happen once but that's the process as I
understand it. I don't know if that has since been modified as the
system has been upgraded in preparation for multi modal use.

This Londonist article gives some clues about what happens to a CPC
when touched in and also about new inspectors machines that can read
bank cards.

http://londonist.com/2014/08/contact...rt-some-more-a
nswers.php

"TfL is starting to issue inspectors with portable card readers which
will be able to read the card’s recent journey history."

Which contradicts what I thought I'd read about contactless card
technology and the ability to store recent transactions on the card - or
am I conflating that aspect with ITSO?

Although one of the comments (to you in fact) says: "On Oyster the
reader does write on to the card to prove you have touched in.
On contactless cards (as far as I know) they cannot write to the card,"
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 10:39:28AM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:23:21 on
Tue, 9 Sep 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
Inspectors request a print out from the ticket machine on boarding the
bus. This has a list of any CPCs used on that trip which the
inspectors then use to check against any cards presented by a
passenger.
A wonderfully manual way of implementing an e-ticket system!

It's not a particularly stupid way of doing occasional ticket
inspections.

As bad as
MegaTrain, where they check off your P@H tickets from a manual list at
the gateline.

No, it's completely different. What you describe for Megatrain (who
dat?) sounds like something they do all the time, for all journeys. What
Mr. Corfield describes is something that will happen occasionally, for a
tiny minority of journeys.

"TfL is starting to issue inspectors with portable card readers which
will be able to read the card???s recent journey history."

Which contradicts what I thought I'd read about contactless card
technology and the ability to store recent transactions on the card
...

That could be a poor description of a device that reads the card's
number from the card and checks that it has been used to pay for a
fare on that bus.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

Are you feeling bored? depressed? slowed down? Evil Scientists may
be manipulating the speed of light in your vicinity. Buy our patented
instructional video to find out how, and maybe YOU can stop THEM

In message , at 12:05:19
on Wed, 10 Sep 2014, David Cantrell remarked:
"TfL is starting to issue inspectors with portable card readers which
will be able to read the card???s recent journey history."

Which contradicts what I thought I'd read about contactless card
technology and the ability to store recent transactions on the card
...

That could be a poor description of a device that reads the card's
number from the card and checks that it has been used to pay for a
fare on that bus.

That makes it sound like the device can read the paper printout too, so
it has something to compare the cards with
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:00:40 on
Tue, 9 Sep 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
The idea of somehow recording card holder name, card number and expiry
date and then restrospectively applying some sort of charge to the
account doesn't feel feasible to me. I can't think of a situation,
other than via crime / fraud, where charges can be made to a bank
account without the account holder having authorised this (at the time
of transaction or granting authority to the bank when starting the
account in respect of any charges / penalties they can levy).

The T&C posted earlier specifically allow that (assuming that T&C that
weren't brought to your specific attention have any force in law).

3.1 When you touch your contactless payment card on a yellow
card reader, or a portable card reader held by staff, you are
authorising TfL to charge the cost of your journey, including
any unpaid fares, to your card account.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, Sep 08, 2014 at 10:09:46PM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Inevitably there will be false positives [a penalty fare charged when
not warranted] which should make a good story in the next day's Evening
Standard. Assuming that anyone notices, which I'm sure TfL will be
hoping they won't.

I've been using Oyster PAYG instead of a paper travelcard for the last
few months. I don't trust it, so check my journey history every morning.
I find that it has screwed up, on average, once a week. And only once
has it screwed up in my favour by completely missing a journey. Every
other time it overcharged me.

I can pretty much guarantee you that there will be *lots* of false
positives. Probably more than with plain old Oyster, because if people
are paying with their bank card they won't think it necessary to sign up
for an account in an obscure corner of the TfL website and to check it
religiously.

--
David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat

I hate baby seals. They get asked to all the best clubs.

In message , at 12:25:34
on Tue, 9 Sep 2014, David Cantrell remarked:
Inevitably there will be false positives [a penalty fare charged when
not warranted] which should make a good story in the next day's Evening
Standard. Assuming that anyone notices, which I'm sure TfL will be
hoping they won't.

I've been using Oyster PAYG instead of a paper travelcard for the last
few months. I don't trust it, so check my journey history every morning.
I find that it has screwed up, on average, once a week. And only once
has it screwed up in my favour by completely missing a journey. Every
other time it overcharged me.

You've confirmed what a lot of people only suspected.

I can pretty much guarantee you that there will be *lots* of false
positives. Probably more than with plain old Oyster, because if people
are paying with their bank card they won't think it necessary to sign up
for an account in an obscure corner of the TfL website and to check it
religiously.

And with Oyster there's at least the chance that you can see your
balance disappearing, if you know exactly where to look on a gate for
the fraction of a second it displays the number. I'm quite sure there's
no such facility for the contactless cards.
--
Roland Perry