Contactless on the tube and rail
 

Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

Unhelpfully they show someone touching a reader and being told they've
been charged £1.35, that must be a bus, shirley?
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 10:09:58 on
Tue, 16 Sep 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

Unhelpfully they show someone touching a reader and being told they've
been charged £1.35, that must be a bus, shirley?

Could be a discounted PAYG journey on rail.

How does the gate know to apply a discount, and where the journey is
going to end?

The bus fare was £1.35 two years ago and I don't think any CPC
functionality was live back then. I do recall Tom Edwards (BBC London)
doing a feature on CPC use many months on the buses where you see a
card being touched in on a NB4L.

It could of course just be a mock-up.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 16/09/2014 10:09, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

Unhelpfully they show someone touching a reader and being told they've
been charged £1.35, that must be a bus, shirley?

Could be a discounted PAYG journey on rail. The bus fare was £1.35
two years ago and I don't think any CPC functionality was live back
then. [...]

It was - CPC payments went live on London buses on 13 December 2012.

(Discounts - Railcards etc - can't be associated with CPCs.)

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 11:10:14 on Tue, 16 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

Unhelpfully they show someone touching a reader and being told they've
been charged £1.35, that must be a bus, shirley?

Could be a discounted PAYG journey on rail. The bus fare was £1.35
two years ago and I don't think any CPC functionality was live back
then. [...]

It was - CPC payments went live on London buses on 13 December 2012.

(Discounts - Railcards etc - can't be associated with CPCs.)

So perhaps a bit of "library footage" from 2012?

ps What's the bus fare now? The TfL site is always extraordinarily
reluctant to discuss actual fares, other than "how to pay". But I
thought I found a reference to £1.35 today.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 16/09/2014 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
[...]
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

Unhelpfully they show someone touching a reader and being told they've
been charged £1.35, that must be a bus, shirley?

Could be a discounted PAYG journey on rail. The bus fare was £1.35
two years ago and I don't think any CPC functionality was live back
then. [...]

It was - CPC payments went live on London buses on 13 December 2012.

(Discounts - Railcards etc - can't be associated with CPCs.)

So perhaps a bit of "library footage" from 2012?

Presumably so (I didn't see it).


ps What's the bus fare now? The TfL site is always extraordinarily
reluctant to discuss actual fares, other than "how to pay". But I
thought I found a reference to £1.35 today.

£1.45 (daily cap is £4.40).

From the home page - "Fares & payments" on the top bar, then on the
next page click on the "Fares" box in the middle of the page, then - and
this is the bit that's not remotely intuitive - you land on the "Tube,
DLR and LO" fares page and then you need to click "Bus & tram" on the
right-hand side menu to get there...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/bus-and-tram

Likewise, you need to click "National Rail" on that right-hand side menu
to get to the NR Oyster fares.

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat more
pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

What idiots use contactless debut cards anyway with all the inherent security
risks? There's a reason for PINs. As soon as my bank sent me one of these damn
things I disabled it straight away by cutting through the antenna which also
has the added bonus that I can have it in my wallet with my oyster and not
have to worry at the gate.

--
Spud

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat more
pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

What idiots use contactless debut cards anyway with all the inherent security
risks? There's a reason for PINs. As soon as my bank sent me one of these damn
things I disabled it straight away by cutting through the antenna which also
has the added bonus that I can have it in my wallet with my oyster and not
have to worry at the gate.

It won't happen overnight, but I'm in little doubt that contactless
payments for public transport in London will prove to be a great success
(and will drive the adoption and usage of contactless to an extent).

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:49:31 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:
It won't happen overnight, but I'm in little doubt that contactless
payments for public transport in London will prove to be a great success

Oh more than likely. The masses always put a minor increase in convenience
ahead of anything else despite what they may say.

--
Spud

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat more
pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

"The roll-out has cost a total of £66m, and TfL expects to more than
recover the £11m cost of software development by licensing it to other
transport operators around the world." according to
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...in-london.html


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:39:24 +0100
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat more
pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

"The roll-out has cost a total of £66m, and TfL expects to more than
recover the £11m cost of software development by licensing it to other
transport operators around the world." according to
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...less-payment-a
rives-in-london.html

Yeah, right - because its their technology developed in house. Not. The most
technical thing TfL can manage without outside help is a bit of train and
track maintenance.

--
Spud

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In article , (Mizter T) wrote:

On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat
more pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

What idiots use contactless debut cards anyway with all the inherent
security risks? There's a reason for PINs. As soon as my bank sent me
one of these damn things I disabled it straight away by cutting through
the antenna which also has the added bonus that I can have it in my
wallet with my oyster and not have to worry at the gate.

It won't happen overnight, but I'm in little doubt that contactless
payments for public transport in London will prove to be a great
success (and will drive the adoption and usage of contactless to an
extent).

They will be a big improvement for tube and bus travellers from outside
London who won't have to buy Oyster cards to use on their visits if they
don't was to be ripped off paying cash fares.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 2014-09-16, d
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:39:24 +0100
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat
more pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

"The roll-out has cost a total of ?66m, and TfL expects to more than
recover the ?11m cost of software development by licensing it to other
transport operators around the world." according to
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...w/contactless-
payment-arrives-in-london.html

Yeah, right - because its their technology developed in house. Not. The most
technical thing TfL can manage without outside help is a bit of train and
track maintenance.

If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the
contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:23:04 +0100
Eric wrote:
On 2014-09-16, d
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:39:24 +0100
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat
more pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

"The roll-out has cost a total of ?66m, and TfL expects to more than
recover the ?11m cost of software development by licensing it to other
transport operators around the world." according to
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...w/contactless-
payment-arrives-in-london.html

Yeah, right - because its their technology developed in house. Not. The most
technical thing TfL can manage without outside help is a bit of train and
track maintenance.

If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the
contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.

So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and contactless
bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend
software? They're probably little use other than the overall design to any other
metro system. TfL pretending its going to license this is like McDonalds saying
their going to license burger flipping.

--
Spud

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 10:26:15 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, d remarked:
If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the

contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.



So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and contactless

bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend

software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 17/09/2014 11:26, d wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:23:04 +0100
Eric wrote:
On 2014-09-16, d
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:39:24 +0100
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat
more pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

"The roll-out has cost a total of ?66m, and TfL expects to more than
recover the ?11m cost of software development by licensing it to other
transport operators around the world." according to
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...w/contactless-
payment-arrives-in-london.html

Yeah, right - because its their technology developed in house. Not. The most
technical thing TfL can manage without outside help is a bit of train and
track maintenance.

If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the
contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.

So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and contactless
bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend
software? They're probably little use other than the overall design to any other
metro system. TfL pretending its going to license this is like McDonalds saying
their going to license burger flipping.

The systems and solutions for daily/weekly capping, fraud detection and
amelioration, reconciliation of data related to gripping, dealing with
comms loss, data reporting and mining etc etc.

Taking your McDonalds analogy, it's more like them licensing their
logistics, stock tracking and market development data - something that
I'm sure their competitors would be very interested in licensing at the
right price.

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 12:55:07 on
Wed, 17 Sep 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
Based on anecdotal feedback it seems the card / reader txn time for
CPCs is marginally longer and if there is significant transfer to CPCs
that could slow down gate throughput. If the subsequent conversion of
Oyster is also slower than current Oyster then that's not going to be
wonderful.

Southern and the DfT have been launching the "Travelcard on ITSO"
functionality for the Southern "The Key" today. I saw something on
Twitter but no press releases were around earlier.

I hadn't noticed that, thanks. Apparently it went operational (some
would call that a 'soft-launch') about three weeks ago.

Apparently ITSO card read times are not quick either

Even slower than CPC I'm pretty sure. Not that this matters on much of
National Rail with really slow 'clockwork' barriers.

so we face the prospect of gate throughputs falling.

Indeed, although if they started to mark some gates as "Oyster only"
(even if it's a bluff) that might keep the throughput up for people in
the know.

This is in the face of rising patronage and slow
gate throughput means you need more gates for a given throughput which
could have serious implications, if TfL change their standards, for
reconstructing stations.

Another option would be to redefine the ITSO use paradigm, and make it
more like CPC with a "read only" and hence shorter transaction time at
selected gates with selected products (such as TfL/Travelcards), with
the results being reconciled overnight (like CPC) with some sort of
centralised auto-topup purse.

There are a lot of "ifs" there but I hope
someone is paying attention to the effect of changing the blend of
card technologies and read times.

On the other hand it may just be another instance of Hutber's Law, with
a so-called improvement actually giving worse/slower service to the end
user.

Who would have predicted when they decided to phase out slam-door trains
that one of the results would that instead of being able to exit the
train from about minus-two seconds before it stops, you always have to
wait until about fifteen seconds afterwards. Manual ticket buying has
only got difficult since the industry changed from issuing Edmondsons
for cash (about 5 seconds all-up) to the current offering which have to
be picked from a crt, take ages to print, and even longer to pay for by
credit card.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 17/09/2014 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
[...]
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the
and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 13:59:27 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the
and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

I said it LOOKS as if it OUGHT to be simple sigh, but clearly it
isn't.

That's not the same as saying IT IS SIMPLE and that they've botched it.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 13:16:01 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Roland Perry remarked:
Southern and the DfT have been launching the "Travelcard on ITSO"
functionality for the Southern "The Key" today. I saw something on
Twitter but no press releases were around earlier.

I hadn't noticed that, thanks. Apparently it went operational (some
would call that a 'soft-launch') about three weeks ago.

A little bit more than a soft launch perhaps:

http://www.epsomguardian.co.uk/news/...ies_problems_w
ith_electronic_travel_card_at_Epsom_station/

"The Key was being promoted at Epsom station last Thursday (in August)"

Meanwhile, I haven't seen today's launch on any of the news sites.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:54:28 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 17/09/2014 11:26, d wrote:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless
bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend
software? They're probably little use other than the overall design to any
other
metro system. TfL pretending its going to license this is like McDonalds
saying
their going to license burger flipping.

The systems and solutions for daily/weekly capping, fraud detection and
amelioration, reconciliation of data related to gripping, dealing with
comms loss, data reporting and mining etc etc.

This isn't exactly cutting edge tech. While any system can be complex in
its details and implementation they are usually specific to the organisation
and arn't really transferable. Also the fundemantal principals - which might
be worth something - are rarely new.

Taking your McDonalds analogy, it's more like them licensing their
logistics, stock tracking and market development data - something that
I'm sure their competitors would be very interested in licensing at the
right price.

All their competitors would already have their own systems up and running
else they wouldn't still be in business.

--
Spud

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:49:45 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:26:15 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, d remarked:
If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the

contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.



So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and contactless

bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend

software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

No doubt the (sub)contractor hired a load of know-nothing offshored
bodyshoppers to do the donkey work and got exactly what they paid so little
for.

--
Spud

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 17/09/2014 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 13:59:27 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the
gates and the and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

I said it LOOKS as if it OUGHT to be simple sigh, but clearly it isn't.

That's not the same as saying IT IS SIMPLE and that they've botched it.

Right, I'll rephrase then...

You think it looks like it ought to be simple. OK, if you say so...

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 16:13:19 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the
gates and the and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

I said it LOOKS as if it OUGHT to be simple sigh, but clearly it isn't.

That's not the same as saying IT IS SIMPLE and that they've botched it.

Right, I'll rephrase then...

You think it looks like it ought to be simple. OK, if you say so...

If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my
bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate
ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me
overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a
lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in
place.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 16:36:50 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my
bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate
ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me
overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a
lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in
place.

I wonder how they (or the bank) deals with a card that accesses an account
with nothing in it and no overdraft allowed. Does the bank have some sort
of "special" overdraft for that or do they just refuse payment and the
vendor is out of pocket as can happen with credit cards?

--
Spud

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 17.09.14 16:36, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:13:19 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the
gates and the and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a
year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

I said it LOOKS as if it OUGHT to be simple sigh, but clearly it
isn't.

That's not the same as saying IT IS SIMPLE and that they've botched it.

Right, I'll rephrase then...

You think it looks like it ought to be simple. OK, if you say so...

If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my
bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate
ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me
overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a
lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in place.

@TfLOfficial said that over 42,000 journeys were made on Tuesday, using
contactless. It would be interesting to see how that has increased
day-on-day.

I also who wonder who is next due to follow suit here in the Uk with
contactless.

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 16:15:19 on Wed, 17
Sep 2014, d remarked:

If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my

bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate

ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me

overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a

lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in

place.



I wonder how they (or the bank) deals with a card that accesses an account

with nothing in it and no overdraft allowed.

Quite likely, simply not issue a contactless version of the card. So we
are back to the Solo/Electron ghetto of yore.

Neither of the last two cards I've got (one a debit card on the company
account and the other a "travel money" prepaid Mastercard) is
contactless.

This is especially difficult as many (USA at least) tourists arriving in
London will have bought one of the latter at the airport (where they are
marketed aggressively) in order to get over the C&P thing where their
cards may not be compatible, and of course in order to have their money
in their pocket in Sterling.

Does the bank have some sort

of "special" overdraft for that or do they just refuse payment and the

vendor is out of pocket as can happen with credit cards?


On the other hand, TfL has gone out of its way in the past to say that
certain foreign issued and prepay cards won't be accepted. But it's not
clear if they mean "because they aren't contactless - duh!" or whether
they fail TfL's risk management tests due to the possibility of being
dry.

Now that CPC is fully rolled out, I expect we'll see more information
about both TfL's position on this issue and also war stories from
disappointed would-be travellers.

One possibility is that while they won't be able to get a balance from
the bank in the milliseconds it takes to touch in, maybe by at least
overnight they'll know to blacklist such a card's future use.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 17:28:35 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, " remarked:

I also who wonder who is next due to follow suit here in the Uk with
contactless.

No doubt the trade press is queuing up to print 'vapourware' stories
from other operators. After all, they've been doing it for TfL for the
last three years.

VISA say:

"Transport authorities across the world are investing in
contactless payment technology to drive down the cost of
ticketing, reduce queues and increase efficiency."
and
"Many transit agencies across Europe are now seeking to build
Visa contactless acceptance into their future ticketing
strategies due to the uniquely compelling nature of the
propositions they represent."

But don't actually mention any examples of who, other than a couple of
uncaptioned photos from TfL.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 17/09/2014 17:44, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 17:28:35 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, " remarked:

I also who wonder who is next due to follow suit here in the Uk with
contactless.

No doubt the trade press is queuing up to print 'vapourware' stories
from other operators. After all, they've been doing it for TfL for the
last three years.

VISA say:

"Transport authorities across the world are investing in
contactless payment technology to drive down the cost of
ticketing, reduce queues and increase efficiency."
and
"Many transit agencies across Europe are now seeking to build
Visa contactless acceptance into their future ticketing
strategies due to the uniquely compelling nature of the
propositions they represent."

But don't actually mention any examples of who, other than a couple of
uncaptioned photos from TfL.


This vapourware concept you're so very keen on and contactless in London
- how do you describe it - the gases have now solidified?

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

"Roland Perry" wrote

No doubt the trade press is queuing up to print 'vapourware' stories
from other operators. After all, they've been doing it for TfL for the
last three years.

VISA say:

"Transport authorities across the world are investing in
contactless payment technology to drive down the cost of
ticketing, reduce queues and increase efficiency."
and
"Many transit agencies across Europe are now seeking to build
Visa contactless acceptance into their future ticketing
strategies due to the uniquely compelling nature of the
propositions they represent."

But don't actually mention any examples of who, other than a couple of
uncaptioned photos from TfL.

The first is observable, at least when the technology goes live or even when
the contact is signed.

The second is just an aspiration and not observable until something
actually happens.

--
Mike D

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

contactless.



This is especially difficult as many (USA at least) tourists arriving in

London will have bought one of the latter at the airport (where they are

marketed aggressively) in order to get over the C&P thing where their

cards may not be compatible, and of course in order to have their money

in their pocket in Sterling.



Does the bank have some sort



of "special" overdraft for that or do they just refuse payment and the



vendor is out of pocket as can happen with credit cards?





On the other hand, TfL has gone out of its way in the past to say that

certain foreign issued and prepay cards won't be accepted. But it's not

clear if they mean "because they aren't contactless - duh!" or whether

they fail TfL's risk management tests due to the possibility of being

dry.



Now that CPC is fully rolled out, I expect we'll see more information

about both TfL's position on this issue and also war stories from

disappointed would-be travellers.



One possibility is that while they won't be able to get a balance from

the bank in the milliseconds it takes to touch in, maybe by at least

overnight they'll know to blacklist such a card's future use.

--

Roland Perry

There are two different types of contactless cards around:

i) just emulates the magnetic strip

ii) is connected to the EMV chip.

It's the first (mostly USA issued) which won't be accepted.

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at
10:21:57 on Wed, 17 Sep 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
There are two different types of contactless cards around:

i) just emulates the magnetic strip

ii) is connected to the EMV chip.

It's the first (mostly USA issued) which won't be accepted.

That's interesting, so even the ))) contactless symbol has nuances?

To do with technology rather than what sort of credit rating you have.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 17/09/2014 16:36, Roland Perry wrote:

If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my
bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate
ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me
overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a
lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in place.

Because Starbucks knows how much to charge you before you wave your
card, but TfL doesn't know whether you will make more journeys today.
Readers in shops can occasionally ask you for a PIN, but ticket gates
can't do that. This means new rules were needed, as well as new software.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

Now that CPC is fully rolled out, I expect we'll see more information
about both TfL's position on this issue and also war stories from
disappointed would-be travellers.

One question that occurs to me is whether railcard discounts will be
available with contactless cards if so, how?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 17:55:13 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:

This vapourware concept you're so very keen on and contactless in
London - how do you describe it - the gases have now solidified?

It's a product that long conformed to the definition:

"Has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it
is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed."

I'd add the rider that such a thing is especially vapourous if it fails
to meet several announced release dates.

It's taken almost two years to move it on from buses to the rest of the
TfL estate, for example.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 13:32:34
on Wed, 17 Sep 2014, remarked:
Now that CPC is fully rolled out, I expect we'll see more information
about both TfL's position on this issue and also war stories from
disappointed would-be travellers.

One question that occurs to me is whether railcard discounts will be
available with contactless cards if so, how?

Currently a bald "no". From the TfL FAQ:

"If you're eligible for discounted travel, you should carry on using
your existing Oyster card or Oyster photocard.

Discounts can't be added to contactless payment cards. This includes
all National Railcard discounts."
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at 18:00:44 on Wed, 17
Sep 2014, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:
No doubt the trade press is queuing up to print 'vapourware' stories
from other operators. After all, they've been doing it for TfL for the
last three years.

VISA say:

"Transport authorities across the world are investing in
contactless payment technology to drive down the cost of
ticketing, reduce queues and increase efficiency."
and
"Many transit agencies across Europe are now seeking to build
Visa contactless acceptance into their future ticketing
strategies due to the uniquely compelling nature of the
propositions they represent."

But don't actually mention any examples of who, other than a couple of
uncaptioned photos from TfL.

The first is observable, at least when the technology goes live or even
when the contact is signed.

But they still don't have any examples.

The second is just an aspiration and not observable until something
actually happens.

Such as any(?) other transport operator itself announcing that it's
dipping its toe into this particular bit of vapourware[tm].
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

In message , at
19:32:32 on Wed, 17 Sep 2014, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my
bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate
ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me
overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a
lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in place.

Because Starbucks knows how much to charge you before you wave your
card, but TfL doesn't know whether you will make more journeys today.

You've missed the point. The TfL gates "know" to charge you £0, and send
that message along with your location back to HQ. At the end of the day
someone looks at all the £0 charges and works out where you've been and
what non-zero charge to apply to the cardholder.

Readers in shops can occasionally ask you for a PIN, but ticket gates
can't do that. This means new rules were needed,

That's a completely different bit of governance work which the card
companies claim was done years ago (at least two years for acceptance on
buses, obviously).

as well as new software.

Not really, the terminals just have to desist from asking for a PIN if
they don't have a keyboard. That was sorted for acceptance on buses in
2012.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On Wednesday, 17 September 2014 19:25:46 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at

10:21:57 on Wed, 17 Sep 2014, Matthew Dickinson

remarked:

There are two different types of contactless cards around:



i) just emulates the magnetic strip



ii) is connected to the EMV chip.



It's the first (mostly USA issued) which won't be accepted.



That's interesting, so even the ))) contactless symbol has nuances?



To do with technology rather than what sort of credit rating you have.

--

Roland Perry

https://technologypartner.visa.com/Download.aspx?id=32

from page 73 onwards...

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On Wednesday, 17 September 2014 19:50:09 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:00:44 on Wed, 17

Sep 2014, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

No doubt the trade press is queuing up to print 'vapourware' stories

from other operators. After all, they've been doing it for TfL for the

last three years.



VISA say:



"Transport authorities across the world are investing in

contactless payment technology to drive down the cost of

ticketing, reduce queues and increase efficiency."

and

"Many transit agencies across Europe are now seeking to build

Visa contactless acceptance into their future ticketing

strategies due to the uniquely compelling nature of the

propositions they represent."



But don't actually mention any examples of who, other than a couple of

uncaptioned photos from TfL.



The first is observable, at least when the technology goes live or even

when the contact is signed.



But they still don't have any examples.



The second is just an aspiration and not observable until something

actually happens.



Such as any(?) other transport operator itself announcing that it's

dipping its toe into this particular bit of vapourware[tm].

--

Roland Perry

TfGM have announced plans for Manchester.

https://www.getmethere.com/web/tfgm_...e#a-card-types

I wonder if Virgin will have problems with Euston - Manchester Piccadilly travellers thinking they can use contactless for the whole journey..?

Contactless on the tube and rail
 

On 17/09/2014 19:45, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 17:55:13 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:

This vapourware concept you're so very keen on and contactless in
London - how do you describe it - the gases have now solidified?

It's a product that long conformed to the definition:

"Has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it
is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed."

I'd add the rider that such a thing is especially vapourous if it fails
to meet several announced release dates.

It's taken almost two years to move it on from buses to the rest of the
TfL estate, for example.

It's here and is working right now. That doesn't seem very vapourous to me.

It wasn't heavily advertised to the public at large for years either.
Yes, there were vague, broad time scales on the relevant project page of
the TfL website that slipped, but (apart from people who take joy in
pointing out how rubbish everything is) people weren't waiting on baited
breath for it to appear.

TfL met their announced, specific , solid 'go-live' date of 16 September.

Delayed (but working), not vapour.