In message , at 14:22:40 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:
I don't think it's viable to keep Oyster just for tourists. Nor is a
"tourist tax", either by charging more for tickets or via hotel rooms,
in any way uncommon the world over.

Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me
one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London?

Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London?

Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London?

etc etc etc

As a local, I agree.

As a tourist, how did you fly to Heathrow?
--
Roland Perry

On 10/10/2014 14:21, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:11:48 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:

For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think
that (at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy
the ticket they sell onboard.

Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg

Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know
(2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at
13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53,
originally scheduled for 13:51

I recall the cabin crew on board informing anyone who bought a ticket
that they should head to platform 1, where the Thameslink (nee FCC)
trains go from.

On 10/10/2014 14:26, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:22:40 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:
I don't think it's viable to keep Oyster just for tourists. Nor is a
"tourist tax", either by charging more for tickets or via hotel rooms,
in any way uncommon the world over.

Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me
one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London?

Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London?

Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London?

etc etc etc

As a local, I agree.

As a tourist, how did you fly to Heathrow?

Scenario 1: I paid with my non-contactless (or possibly contactless but
in fact UnionPay / Diners Club etc) credit/debit card.

Scenario 2: I paid with my contactless Visa/Mastercard credit/debit
card, but how are the rest of my family going to travel around London?

Scenario 3: Someone else paid for me (it was a gift / a bursary / I
don't have a credit/debit card so gave the money to someone else / I
paid the travel agency in instalments, possibly in cash...).

(Scenario 4: I didn't fly in to Heathrow, I took the Eurolines coach
from Riga.)

etc etc etc

On 2014-10-10 13:21:19 +0000, Roland Perry said:

In message , at 14:11:48 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:

For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that
(at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the
ticket they sell onboard.

Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg

Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know
(2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at
13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53,
originally scheduled for 13:51

I think all EMT trains are tagged with that. FWIW, though, most
tourists will be best served by using the far more frequent Thameslink.
(Do those tickets still exist with the change of operator? Do easyJet
even know the operator has changed? That could be fun )

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 2014-10-10 13:22:40 +0000, Mizter T said:

Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me
one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London?

A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I
didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then
mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad?

Or you use cash at a ticket machine to obtain a paper ticket, or a
vastly simplified electronic "book" of day or single tickets, or
something similar. If Oyster is only left with edge cases, it could be
vastly simplified to become more similar to the kinds of smartcard
system that have been implemented commercially by regional bus
operators.

Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London?

Free, isn't it? The cheapest option may well be to extend that to the
Tube, and provide an easier means for non-Londoners to obtain Zip
cards, perhaps at a nominal fee.

Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London?

As #1 part 2. (You've got other issues if you've lost your debit card
- quite likely you've also lost your cash as well...)

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 2014-10-10 13:45:06 +0000, Mizter T said:

Scenario 2: I paid with my contactless Visa/Mastercard credit/debit
card, but how are the rest of my family going to travel around London?

I still think the "free ticket against a universal tourist tax"
approach practiced elsewhere, e.g. throughout Switzerland, would be an
excellent idea and would catch much of this.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 10/10/2014 15:05, Neil Williams wrote:

On 2014-10-10 13:21:19 +0000, Roland Perry said:
[...]
For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think
that (at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy
the ticket they sell onboard.

Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg

Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know
(2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at
13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53,
originally scheduled for 13:51

I think all EMT trains are tagged with that. FWIW, though, most
tourists will be best served by using the far more frequent Thameslink.
(Do those tickets still exist with the change of operator? Do easyJet
even know the operator has changed? That could be fun )

It would appear that easyjet are on the ball:
http://buyonboard.easyjet.com/#tickets-travel

(well, up to a point - it shows the "GTR" logo for both Luton and
Gatwick tickets, which I'm pretty sure isn't part of the TOCs customer
facing identity)

On 10/10/2014 15:11, Neil Williams wrote:

On 2014-10-10 13:45:06 +0000, Mizter T said:

Scenario 2: I paid with my contactless Visa/Mastercard credit/debit
card, but how are the rest of my family going to travel around London?

I still think the "free ticket against a universal tourist tax" approach
practiced elsewhere, e.g. throughout Switzerland, would be an excellent
idea and would catch much of this.

Including those visiting friends in London for the weekend, for example?
Or the day? (Not everyone arrives in London by rail with the possibility
of having bought an outboundary Travelcard - they're not available for
journeys from further afield anyway.)

Sorry, there are simply far too many exceptions to your neat categories!

In message , at 15:14:50 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:
For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think
that (at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy
the ticket they sell onboard.

Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg

Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know
(2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at
13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53,
originally scheduled for 13:51

I think all EMT trains are tagged with that. FWIW, though, most
tourists will be best served by using the far more frequent Thameslink.
(Do those tickets still exist with the change of operator? Do easyJet
even know the operator has changed? That could be fun )

It would appear that easyjet are on the ball:
http://buyonboard.easyjet.com/#tickets-travel

(well, up to a point - it shows the "GTR" logo for both Luton and
Gatwick tickets, which I'm pretty sure isn't part of the TOCs customer
facing identity)

Indeed, they replace the GTR on the banner with either "Thameslink" or
"Great Northern", as appropriate to the route.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/10/2014 15:10, Neil Williams wrote:

On 2014-10-10 13:22:40 +0000, Mizter T said:

Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me
one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London?

A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I
didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then
mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad?

The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine
because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of
online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash -
they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for
other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation
is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go'
experience the adverts make out!).

Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be
accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more
'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be blacklisted
sharpish).


Or you use cash at a ticket machine to obtain a paper ticket, or a
vastly simplified electronic "book" of day or single tickets, or
something similar. If Oyster is only left with edge cases, it could be
vastly simplified to become more similar to the kinds of smartcard
system that have been implemented commercially by regional bus operators.

A ticket machine where? In what was once the local Oyster Ticket Stop?

This "vastly simplified Oyster" system doesn't sound so simple to me.
Made more sense how it used to work...


Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London?

Free, isn't it? The cheapest option may well be to extend that to the
Tube, and provide an easier means for non-Londoners to obtain Zip cards,
perhaps at a nominal fee.

No, it's not free. 5-10 year olds travel free with accompanying adults
on the Tube and other TfL rated services (DLR, LO, some NR services on
the TfL tariff), but on many NR services children 5+ have to pay.

The thought of a 7 year old travelling on the Tube unaccompanied by an
adult might shock some, but when they're with their 14 year old sibling
it makes rather more sense.


Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London?

As #1 part 2. (You've got other issues if you've lost your debit card -
quite likely you've also lost your cash as well...)

You might well have a backup Oyster card at home, or one you can borrow
from someone. (Have you never left your debit card out of your wallet
having bought something online?!)

Meanwhile...
Scenario 94: I have a contactless card but I don't have enough money in
the bank - perhaps I might be able to use it for a journey, but that'll
put me into unauthorised overdraft territory and my journey home will
cost rather more than two or three quid.