5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

On 2015\01\13 16:40, wrote:

It was singled to get it electrified through the tunnel which would
otherwise have been problematic.

Although I now wonder if it would be possible to triple the Canonbury
Curve, with the outer two third-rail-electrified tracks overlapping with
the central overhead-electrified one.

It's not really an answer here because it
would mean a flat crossing of the North London line.

Indeed.

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , (Basil Jet)
wrote:

On 2015\01\13 16:40, wrote:

It was singled to get it electrified through the tunnel which would
otherwise have been problematic.

Although I now wonder if it would be possible to triple the Canonbury
Curve, with the outer two third-rail-electrified tracks overlapping
with the central overhead-electrified one.

There's no third rail electrification near to the curve now. The only third
rail lines anywhere near are the East London Line pair of tracks with no
physical connection to the North London Line except the so far never
commissioned "stock transfer" connection some way to the west, at the end of
platform 2 at Highbury and Islington. I suspect connection will never be
commissioned now. They can use the connection at Clapham Junction far more
easily. The East London extension to Highbury was planned before the South
London Line takeover was planned.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In message ,
d wrote:
Their top speed isn't the issue - its 75mph according to wonkypedia. Its their
acceleration. On the ELL they're so slow off the mark they barely get up to any
decent speed before they have to slow down again for the next stop. I can only
assume the stations on the watford branch are further apart. Either that or we
enter conspiracy theory land and assume there's a deliberate policy on the ELL
to provide a slow service.

Dalston Jn to Surrey Quays is 9 stops in 6.97 km, an average of 0.77 km.

Willesden Jn to Watford Jn is 13 stops in 19.71 km, an average of 1.52
km, almost twice as much.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 11:47:55 -0600
wrote:
In article , d
() wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 10:40:34 -0600
wrote:
Well it makes more sense than thousands of people spilling out at
finsbury, shuffling onto the victoria line - which is already seriously
overcrowded there in the rush hour - for one stop then getting off at
highbury when there is an underused freight line - albeit single track
- onto the NLL that could have been used for passenger trains.

It was singled to get it electrified through the tunnel which would
otherwise have been problematic. It's not really an answer here because
it would mean a flat crossing of the North London line.

So? Its not the M25. I've waited at H&I and not seen a train go past
on the NLL for 10 minutes.

ITYF that capacity is already constrained on the NLL, mainly unsatisfied
freight paths.

"Constrained" obviously has a different meaning in railway parlance then.
Even a couple of trains an hour to finsbury would be better than nothing.

--
Spud

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 23:40:31 +0000
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote:
In message ,
wrote:
Their top speed isn't the issue - its 75mph according to wonkypedia. Its their
acceleration. On the ELL they're so slow off the mark they barely get up to
any
decent speed before they have to slow down again for the next stop. I can only
assume the stations on the watford branch are further apart. Either that or we
enter conspiracy theory land and assume there's a deliberate policy on the ELL
to provide a slow service.

Dalston Jn to Surrey Quays is 9 stops in 6.97 km, an average of 0.77 km.

Willesden Jn to Watford Jn is 13 stops in 19.71 km, an average of 1.52
km, almost twice as much.

Are you seriously implying that 770m isn't long enough for a modern metro
train to get up to line speed with room to spare? That fact that the 378s can't
manage it says it all about their suitability for the route.

--
Spud

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:07:07 -0600,
wrote:

There's no third rail electrification near to the curve now. The only
third rail lines anywhere near are the East London Line pair of tracks
with no physical connection to the North London Line except the so far
never commissioned "stock transfer" connection some way to the west, at
the end of platform 2 at Highbury and Islington. I suspect connection
will never be commissioned now. They can use the connection at Clapham
Junction far more easily. The East London extension to Highbury was
planned before the South London Line takeover was planned.

I read something recently that said it is going to be commissioned as
NR had stopped providing completely ludicrous quotes for the work.
Something far more reasonable has been negotiated and TfL want the
work done. No idea of timescale.

Good news then. Hardly a high priority though, unless I'm missing a reason
for regular use.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , d
() wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 11:47:55 -0600
wrote:
In article ,
d () wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 10:40:34 -0600
wrote:
Well it makes more sense than thousands of people spilling out at
finsbury, shuffling onto the victoria line - which is already
seriously overcrowded there in the rush hour - for one stop then
getting off at highbury when there is an underused freight line -
albeit single track - onto the NLL that could have been used for
passenger trains.

It was singled to get it electrified through the tunnel which would
otherwise have been problematic. It's not really an answer here
because it would mean a flat crossing of the North London line.

So? Its not the M25. I've waited at H&I and not seen a train go past
on the NLL for 10 minutes.

ITYF that capacity is already constrained on the NLL, mainly unsatisfied
freight paths.

"Constrained" obviously has a different meaning in railway parlance then.
Even a couple of trains an hour to finsbury would be better than
nothing.

Constrained in the sense that TfL and the Mayor would like to run a more
frequent North London Line service but isn't being allowed to do so because
of lack of capacity, allowing for the freight paths. The recently changed
layout introduces what are in effect freight loops at Caledonian Road &
Barnsbury but the Canonbury curve is to the east of them.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 05:13:43 -0600
wrote:
In article , d
() wrote:
"Constrained" obviously has a different meaning in railway parlance then.
Even a couple of trains an hour to finsbury would be better than
nothing.

Constrained in the sense that TfL and the Mayor would like to run a more
frequent North London Line service but isn't being allowed to do so because
of lack of capacity, allowing for the freight paths. The recently changed
layout introduces what are in effect freight loops at Caledonian Road &
Barnsbury but the Canonbury curve is to the east of them.

Is it really necessary for freight to use the NLL in the first place? Surely
there must be other routes it can take. Or just do most freight at night with
a limited service in the day.

--
Spud

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , d ()
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 05:13:43 -0600
wrote:
In article ,
d () wrote:
"Constrained" obviously has a different meaning in railway parlance
then. Even a couple of trains an hour to finsbury would be better than
nothing.

Constrained in the sense that TfL and the Mayor would like to run a more
frequent North London Line service but isn't being allowed to do so
because of lack of capacity, allowing for the freight paths. The recently
changed layout introduces what are in effect freight loops at Caledonian
Road & Barnsbury but the Canonbury curve is to the east of them.

Is it really necessary for freight to use the NLL in the first place?
Surely there must be other routes it can take. Or just do most freight at
night with a limited service in the day.

I thought you knew everything? Obviously not or you would have know about
traffic from the UK's busiest port to its busiest main railway line.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 09:19:35 -0600
wrote:
In article , d ()
wrote:
Is it really necessary for freight to use the NLL in the first place?
Surely there must be other routes it can take. Or just do most freight at
night with a limited service in the day.

I thought you knew everything? Obviously not or you would have know about
traffic from the UK's busiest port to its busiest main railway line.

Sadly I don't have the time nor inclination to review the entire railway route
map of the UK.

--
Spud

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , d ()
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 09:19:35 -0600 wrote:
In article ,
() wrote:
Is it really necessary for freight to use the NLL in the first place?
Surely there must be other routes it can take. Or just do most freight
at night with a limited service in the day.

I thought you knew everything? Obviously not or you would have know about
traffic from the UK's busiest port to its busiest main railway line.

Sadly I don't have the time nor inclination to review the entire
railway route map of the UK.

Not even its busiest sections? Shame!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 11:46:20 -0600
wrote:
In article , d ()
wrote:
I thought you knew everything? Obviously not or you would have know about
traffic from the UK's busiest port to its busiest main railway line.

Sadly I don't have the time nor inclination to review the entire
railway route map of the UK.

Not even its busiest sections? Shame!

Actually I've looked at the link to the ECML on google maps and the only one I
can find is facing the wrong way for ELL so I take back what I said. Pity.

--
Spud

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 11:46:20 -0600
wrote:
In article , d ()
wrote:
I thought you knew everything? Obviously not or you would have know about
traffic from the UK's busiest port to its busiest main railway line.

Sadly I don't have the time nor inclination to review the entire
railway route map of the UK.

Not even its busiest sections? Shame!

Actually I've looked at the link to the ECML on google maps and the only one I
can find is facing the wrong way for ELL so I take back what I said. Pity.

The busiest main line isn't the ECML, as I'm sure a man of your great
learning knows very well.

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 09:55:23 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 11:46:20 -0600
wrote:
In article , d
()
wrote:
I thought you knew everything? Obviously not or you would have know about
traffic from the UK's busiest port to its busiest main railway line.

Sadly I don't have the time nor inclination to review the entire
railway route map of the UK.

Not even its busiest sections? Shame!

Actually I've looked at the link to the ECML on google maps and the only one
I
can find is facing the wrong way for ELL so I take back what I said. Pity.

The busiest main line isn't the ECML, as I'm sure a man of your great
learning knows very well.

Ok. And? Finsbury Park is on the ECML , not the WCML.

--
Spud

The Canonbury tunnel used to be a passenger route: through to Broad Street.
In my early twenties, I travelled to work that way every day.

I think Spud is right when he says that taking the L.O. to Finsbury Park would
have been better than taking it to Highbury & Islington. I've never been
persuaded that the frequency of freight trains is such that running L.O. trains
across the tracks and into the tunnel is impossible.

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , d
() wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 09:55:23 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 11:46:20 -0600
wrote:
In article ,
d() wrote:
I thought you knew everything? Obviously not or you would have know
about traffic from the UK's busiest port to its busiest main railway
line.

Sadly I don't have the time nor inclination to review the entire
railway route map of the UK.

Not even its busiest sections? Shame!

Actually I've looked at the link to the ECML on google maps and the
only one I can find is facing the wrong way for ELL so I take back what
I said. Pity.

The busiest main line isn't the ECML, as I'm sure a man of your great
learning knows very well.

Ok. And? Finsbury Park is on the ECML , not the WCML.

But the main freight traffic flow on the North London Line which is in the
way of your Canonbury Curve passenger traffic idea is between Felixstowe and
the West Coast Main Line. Did you not know that, o knowledgeable one?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In message , at 05:00:24
on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:
The busiest main line isn't the ECML, as I'm sure a man of your great
learning knows very well.

Ok. And? Finsbury Park is on the ECML , not the WCML.

But the main freight traffic flow on the North London Line which is in the
way of your Canonbury Curve passenger traffic idea is between Felixstowe and
the West Coast Main Line. Did you not know that, o knowledgeable one?

Isn't the busiest main line the GEML into Liverpool St?
--
Roland Perry

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 05:00:24 -0600
wrote:
In article , d
() wrote:
Actually I've looked at the link to the ECML on google maps and the
only one I can find is facing the wrong way for ELL so I take back what
I said. Pity.

The busiest main line isn't the ECML, as I'm sure a man of your great
learning knows very well.

Ok. And? Finsbury Park is on the ECML , not the WCML.

But the main freight traffic flow on the North London Line which is in the
way of your Canonbury Curve passenger traffic idea is between Felixstowe and
the West Coast Main Line. Did you not know that, o knowledgeable one?

No. I care about the railways when its of concern to my commute. I currently
have no plans on commuting in a container to or from Felixstow.

--
Spud

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
05:00:24 on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:
The busiest main line isn't the ECML, as I'm sure a man of your great
learning knows very well.

Ok. And? Finsbury Park is on the ECML , not the WCML.

But the main freight traffic flow on the North London Line which is in
the way of your Canonbury Curve passenger traffic idea is between
Felixstowe and the West Coast Main Line. Did you not know that, o
knowledgeable one?

Isn't the busiest main line the GEML into Liverpool St?

Not sure but I doubt it.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

wrote:
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
05:00:24 on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:
The busiest main line isn't the ECML, as I'm sure a man of your great
learning knows very well.

Ok. And? Finsbury Park is on the ECML , not the WCML.

But the main freight traffic flow on the North London Line which is in
the way of your Canonbury Curve passenger traffic idea is between
Felixstowe and the West Coast Main Line. Did you not know that, o
knowledgeable one?

Isn't the busiest main line the GEML into Liverpool St?

Not sure but I doubt it.

The WCML is normally described as the busiest mixed traffic railway in
Europe, and t think it has at least four tracks for longer than other UK
main lines.

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In message , at 08:16:38
on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:

Isn't the busiest main line the GEML into Liverpool St?

Not sure but I doubt it.

It's certainly the busiest in terms of passenger numbers (38m using
Euston vs 58m at Liverpool St). Both are higher than the other main line
termini: Kings Cross, Paddington and St Pancras.

If we filter on trains passing through Stratford [so excluding WA,
Chingford etc] and Watford Junction on their way to the respective
stations, in the hour from 8am, it's 35 to Liverpool St and 11 to
Euston.
--
Roland Perry

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
08:16:38 on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:

Isn't the busiest main line the GEML into Liverpool St?

Not sure but I doubt it.

It's certainly the busiest in terms of passenger numbers (38m using
Euston vs 58m at Liverpool St). Both are higher than the other main
line termini: Kings Cross, Paddington and St Pancras.

If we filter on trains passing through Stratford [so excluding WA,
Chingford etc] and Watford Junction on their way to the respective
stations, in the hour from 8am, it's 35 to Liverpool St and 11 to
Euston.

Recliner has already reminded us we're not just talking about passengers,
with the WCML being the busiest mixed-traffic railway in Europe, supposedly.
Since the discussion is about freight on the NLL we might have thought you'd
have remembered that.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , d
() wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 05:00:24 -0600
wrote:
In article ,
d () wrote:
Actually I've looked at the link to the ECML on google maps and the
only one I can find is facing the wrong way for ELL so I take back
what I said. Pity.

The busiest main line isn't the ECML, as I'm sure a man of your great
learning knows very well.

Ok. And? Finsbury Park is on the ECML , not the WCML.

But the main freight traffic flow on the North London Line which is in
the way of your Canonbury Curve passenger traffic idea is between
Felixstowe and the West Coast Main Line. Did you not know that, o
knowledgeable one?

No. I care about the railways when its of concern to my commute. I
currently have no plans on commuting in a container to or from Felixstow.

You must be a fan of the mayor. He doesn't care where the freight goes
either as long as he can have more passenger trains on the NLL.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In message , at 10:02:18
on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:
If we filter on trains passing through Stratford [so excluding WA,
Chingford etc] and Watford Junction on their way to the respective
stations, in the hour from 8am, it's 35 to Liverpool St and 11 to
Euston.

Recliner has already reminded us we're not just talking about passengers,
with the WCML being the busiest mixed-traffic railway in Europe, supposedly.
Since the discussion is about freight on the NLL we might have thought you'd
have remembered that.

Can you post a link to 24tph freight trains each way on the WCML?

I can see up to about eight an hour flicking through RTT (4 each way).

Of course there's also freight on the GEML, up to four an hour (2 each
way), which sort of puts a limit on the number going GEML-WCML. Pretty
much all of those four go round the NLL, of course.

--
Roland Perry

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:02:18 -0600
wrote:
You must be a fan of the mayor. He doesn't care where the freight goes
either as long as he can have more passenger trains on the NLL.

Actually I can't stand the man. His lovable buffoon act is worn out and cynical
and so are his policies. But that aside, I don't see why freight trains can't
go through london at night like HGVs do. There can't be THAT many of them.

--
Spud

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
10:02:18 on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:
If we filter on trains passing through Stratford [so excluding WA,
Chingford etc] and Watford Junction on their way to the respective
stations, in the hour from 8am, it's 35 to Liverpool St and 11 to
Euston.

Recliner has already reminded us we're not just talking about passengers,
with the WCML being the busiest mixed-traffic railway in Europe,
supposedly. Since the discussion is about freight on the NLL we might
have thought you'd have remembered that.

Can you post a link to 24tph freight trains each way on the WCML?

No, but then I never mentioned any such figure.

I can see up to about eight an hour flicking through RTT (4 each way).

Of course there's also freight on the GEML, up to four an hour (2
each way), which sort of puts a limit on the number going GEML-WCML.
Pretty much all of those four go round the NLL, of course.

That is probably the current limit, along with the passenger services. All
this excursion means is that there would not be the paths across that stream
of trains for a regular service via Canonbury Curve as well, remember.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , d
() wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:02:18 -0600
wrote:
You must be a fan of the mayor. He doesn't care where the freight goes
either as long as he can have more passenger trains on the NLL.

Actually I can't stand the man. His lovable buffoon act is worn out and
cynical and so are his policies. But that aside, I don't see why freight
trains can't go through london at night like HGVs do. There can't be
THAT many of them.

I was careful to say "the mayor" because on this issue the present and
previous incumbents are as one.

The demand for freight is too much for the few trains that could be fitted
between maintenance work at night of course.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In message , at 14:13:37
on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:
If we filter on trains passing through Stratford [so excluding WA,
Chingford etc] and Watford Junction on their way to the respective
stations, in the hour from 8am, it's 35 to Liverpool St and 11 to
Euston.

Recliner has already reminded us we're not just talking about passengers,
with the WCML being the busiest mixed-traffic railway in Europe,
supposedly. Since the discussion is about freight on the NLL we might
have thought you'd have remembered that.

Can you post a link to 24tph freight trains each way on the WCML?

No, but then I never mentioned any such figure.

It's what's needed to add to the 11 passenger trains to get towards the
35 passenger and 2 freights on the GWML.
--
Roland Perry

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
14:13:37 on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:
If we filter on trains passing through Stratford [so excluding WA,
Chingford etc] and Watford Junction on their way to the respective
stations, in the hour from 8am, it's 35 to Liverpool St and 11 to
Euston.

Recliner has already reminded us we're not just talking about
passengers, with the WCML being the busiest mixed-traffic railway in
Europe, supposedly. Since the discussion is about freight on the NLL
we might have thought you'd have remembered that.

Can you post a link to 24tph freight trains each way on the WCML?

No, but then I never mentioned any such figure.

It's what's needed to add to the 11 passenger trains to get towards
the 35 passenger and 2 freights on the GWML.

Eh? Where did the GWML come in? The WCML congestion would be better measured
at Rugby I think. And, of course, freight traffic is depressed in the
passenger peaks. What the Mayor wants is higher frequencies all day on the
NLL.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In message , at 14:53:06
on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:
If we filter on trains passing through Stratford [so excluding WA,
Chingford etc] and Watford Junction on their way to the respective
stations, in the hour from 8am, it's 35 to Liverpool St and 11 to
Euston.

Recliner has already reminded us we're not just talking about
passengers, with the WCML being the busiest mixed-traffic railway in
Europe, supposedly. Since the discussion is about freight on the NLL
we might have thought you'd have remembered that.

Can you post a link to 24tph freight trains each way on the WCML?

No, but then I never mentioned any such figure.

It's what's needed to add to the 11 passenger trains to get towards
the 35 passenger and 2 freights on the GWML.

Eh? Where did the GWML come in?

Do keep up! It was my suggestion of the busiest main line.

The WCML congestion would be better measured at Rugby I think.

Weren't we looking for the busiest, rather than the most congested?

And, of course, freight traffic is depressed in the passenger peaks.

Let's try Rugby and Shenfield, for 10am to 11am:

Rugby: 30 trains, of which five are freight.
Shenfield: 33 trains of which two are freight.

So a bit closer, but by no means a walkover for the WCML.
--
Roland Perry

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In message , at 07:13:32 on Fri, 16 Jan
2015, Roland Perry remarked:

Let's try Rugby and Shenfield, for 10am to 11am:

Sorry, it's 2pm to 3pm... 10am was a bit too near the morning rush
hours.

Rugby: 30 trains, of which five are freight.
Shenfield: 33 trains of which two are freight.

So a bit closer, but by no means a walkover for the WCML.

--
Roland Perry

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
14:53:06 on Thu, 15 Jan 2015, remarked:

It's what's needed to add to the 11 passenger trains to get towards
the 35 passenger and 2 freights on the GWML.

Eh? Where did the GWML come in?

Do keep up! It was my suggestion of the busiest main line.

Yes but what has the Great Western got to do with this?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction
 

In message , at 06:48:06
on Fri, 16 Jan 2015, remarked:
It's what's needed to add to the 11 passenger trains to get towards
the 35 passenger and 2 freights on the GWML.

Eh? Where did the GWML come in?

Do keep up! It was my suggestion of the busiest main line.

Yes but what has the Great Western got to do with this?

Oh, a typo :( GEML, of course.
--
Roland Perry