wrote in message ...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 12:41:56 -0000
"michael adams" wrote:
" These plans were shelved at the outset of the Second World War,"

And what? The plans existed which the shelters were pretty much built to. End.

"Pretty much built to" ?

From your very own link, which you so thoughtfully provided.

" Above ground, each shelter's shafts were protected by specially constructed
'pill box' buildings to prevent any bombs that directly hit the location from
going underground. Each pill box housed lift machinery and provided the cover
for spiral staircases down to the shelter's tunnels."

"Two pairs of shafts were sunk for each shelter, with the pairs being sited
a distance from each other in case a bomb struck, blocking a shaft."

"Toilet facilities were constructed near the lift shafts, with the sewage being
periodically hydraulically pumped up a rising main to a sewer close to surface
level. There was storage capacity of 5 days for sewage should the hydraulic
mechanism fail for some reason."

"The air was filtered in case of gas attack. All doors were gas seals when closed,
and should there be an attack, the entrance doorways would be shut, with the
air passing through grilles in the roof of the pill box (clearly visible on
the Goodge Street picture below) and through gas filtration equipment."

http://underground-history.co.uk/shelters.php




michael adams

On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 17:15:17 -0000
"michael adams" wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 12:41:56 -0000
"michael adams" wrote:
" These plans were shelved at the outset of the Second World War,"

And what? The plans existed which the shelters were pretty much built to.
End.

"Pretty much built to" ?

From your very own link, which you so thoughtfully provided.

Are you autistic? Yes, built to as in straight tunnels of train size running
in the same location as the express tube was designed. FFS. Of course they're
going to have a few extra bits if they're being fitted out as shelters.

--
Spud

wrote in message ...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 17:15:17 -0000
"michael adams" wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 12:41:56 -0000
"michael adams" wrote:
" These plans were shelved at the outset of the Second World War,"

And what? The plans existed which the shelters were pretty much built to.
End.

"Pretty much built to" ?

From your very own link, which you so thoughtfully provided.

Are you autistic? Yes, built to as in straight tunnels of train size

Train size ?

From your own link

" Each shelter consisted of two parallel tunnels that were 16ft 6in
(approx. 4.9m) in diameter "

http://underground-history.co.uk/shelters.php

whereas -

.. The Bakerloo, Central, Jubilee, Northern, Piccadilly, Victoria and Waterloo
& City lines are deep-level tubes, with smaller trains that run in two circular
tunnels with a diameter of about 11 feet 8 inches (3.56 m)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_...infrastructure

Spot the difference can you ?

Or are you now going to suggest that despite all the extra expense
involved, this additional deep level tube was expressly designed
to accomodate extra tall people ?

running
in the same location as the express tube was designed. FFS. Of course they're
going to have a few extra bits if they're being fitted out as shelters.

Those extra bits being, in addition to widely spaced shafts, reinforced
infrastructure, air conditioning, sewage facilities, small details like
tunnels which were 5ft larger in diameter you mean ?


michael adams

....

On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:56:52 -0000
"michael adams" wrote:
wrote in message
...
Are you autistic? Yes, built to as in straight tunnels of train size

Train size ?

From your own link

" Each shelter consisted of two parallel tunnels that were 16ft 6in
(approx. 4.9m) in diameter "

http://underground-history.co.uk/shelters.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground

"whereas the Great Northern and City Railway, which opened in 1904, was built
to take main line trains from Finsbury Park to a Moorgate terminus in the City
and had 16-foot (4.9 m) diameter tunnels."

Now run along and find some other straws to grasp.

--
Spud

wrote in message ...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:56:52 -0000
"michael adams" wrote:
wrote in message
...
Are you autistic? Yes, built to as in straight tunnels of train size

Train size ?

From your own link

" Each shelter consisted of two parallel tunnels that were 16ft 6in
(approx. 4.9m) in diameter "

http://underground-history.co.uk/shelters.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground

"whereas the Great Northern and City Railway, which opened in 1904, was built
to take main line trains from Finsbury Park to a Moorgate terminus in the City
and had 16-foot (4.9 m) diameter tunnels."

Now run along and find some other straws to grasp.

The stations in question Belsize Park, Camden Town, Goodge Steet, Stockwell,
Clapham North, Clapham Common, Clapham South are all deep level tubes
running through 11 feet 8 inches (3.56 m) tunnels.

The plan envisaged subsequently using the 16.ft 6in diameter shelters as
platform spaces, not as "train size" tunnels, as you claim above.

You really don't have a clue, do you ?


michael adams

....











--
Spud

On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:22:49 -0000
"michael adams" wrote:
wrote in message
...
"whereas the Great Northern and City Railway, which opened in 1904, was built
to take main line trains from Finsbury Park to a Moorgate terminus in the
City
and had 16-foot (4.9 m) diameter tunnels."

Now run along and find some other straws to grasp.

The stations in question Belsize Park, Camden Town, Goodge Steet, Stockwell,
Clapham North, Clapham Common, Clapham South are all deep level tubes
running through 11 feet 8 inches (3.56 m) tunnels.

The plan envisaged subsequently using the 16.ft 6in diameter shelters as
platform spaces, not as "train size" tunnels, as you claim above.

Are you arguing against yourself now? A few posts back you were saying they
were shelter designs, now you're saying they were stations. Make your mind up.
Personally I always assumed the express tube was going to be full size loading
gauge but there we go.

You really don't have a clue, do you ?

You have to love unwitting irony.

--
Spud

wrote in message ...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:22:49 -0000
"michael adams" wrote:
wrote in message
...
"whereas the Great Northern and City Railway, which opened in 1904, was built
to take main line trains from Finsbury Park to a Moorgate terminus in the
City
and had 16-foot (4.9 m) diameter tunnels."

Now run along and find some other straws to grasp.

The stations in question Belsize Park, Camden Town, Goodge Steet, Stockwell,
Clapham North, Clapham Common, Clapham South are all deep level tubes
running through 11 feet 8 inches (3.56 m) tunnels.

The plan envisaged subsequently using the 16.ft 6in diameter shelters as
platform spaces, not as "train size" tunnels, as you claim above.

Are you arguing against yourself now?

No. I'm merely quoting your own chosen link back at you

http://underground-history.co.uk/shelters.php

" work began in 1940 on building deep level shelters which were envisaged
to eventually become the platform tunnels for the express route.

This was the link, if you remember which you posted as offering
more accurate information than the information which I'd quoted from
SB and wikipaedia.

Anyone with any knowledge of this topic, apart from you at least,
will appreciate that there are conflicting accounts of the sequence of
events around the construction of these tunnels, which is hardly
helped by the absence of original source material, for all but
the most diligent of researchers at least.


Given which, labelling people who disagree with you as "autistic",
or "trolls", probably isn't the best way to react when its evident
you don't even read, or are incapable of fully comprehending, your
own linked material.


You really don't have a clue, do you ?

You have to love unwitting irony.

Indeed.


michael adams

....



--
Spud

In message , michael adams
wrote:
The stations in question Belsize Park, Camden Town, Goodge Steet, Stockwell,
Clapham North, Clapham Common, Clapham South are all deep level tubes
running through 11 feet 8 inches (3.56 m) tunnels.

The plan envisaged subsequently using the 16.ft 6in diameter shelters as
platform spaces, not as "train size" tunnels, as you claim above.

No, they weren't. 16'6" is too small for a platform tunnel.

From the various sources I've studied (*not* just The Web of a Million
Lies), the tunnels were explicitly designed as shelters, but put in
locations where they could be used as the basis for an express tube
after the war.

Such express tubes were under consideration from 1937 onwards (see
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/victoria.html for some details) and at
some times were planned to be capable of carrying mainline stock. So
it's not surprising that a 16'6" *non* station tunnel size was chosen.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In message , michael adams wrote:
The stations in question Belsize Park, Camden Town, Goodge Steet, Stockwell,
Clapham North, Clapham Common, Clapham South are all deep level tubes
running through 11 feet 8 inches (3.56 m) tunnels.

The plan envisaged subsequently using the 16.ft 6in diameter shelters as
platform spaces, not as "train size" tunnels, as you claim above.

No, they weren't. 16'6" is too small for a platform tunnel.

There appears to be a misundertanding here. I'm not claiming anything
but merely quoting back material from a link posted by spud,

" work began in 1940 on building deep level shelters which were envisaged
to eventually become the platform tunnels for the express route.

http://underground-history.co.uk/shelters.php

which contradicts his earlier claim, supposedly based on the same source -

quote

wrote in message ...

Are you autistic? Yes, built to as in straight tunnels of train size

/quote

I'd originally posted material from Subterranea Brittanica and Wiki
which followed the genearally accepted line, that there was no
pre-war plan, and it was this, that spud was claiming was
nonsense.



From the various sources I've studied (*not* just The Web of a Million Lies), the
tunnels were explicitly designed as shelters, but put in locations where they could be
used as the basis for an express tube after the war.

Indeed. The only source which claims otherwise appears to be
spud's link

quote

"As congestion on the Northern Line increased in the '30s, a plan was
developed to build a second pair of tunnels in parallel with the Charing
Cross branch of the Northern Line

http://underground-history.co.uk/shelters.php

/quote

None of the original material available on the web, or the quoted
versions of it at least - the LTPB New Works Programms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Works_Programme

or scans of an undated but circa 1942 account of the construction
of the tunnels discovered by Mark Bennett and posted on the SB website
concerning the "shelters suggest otherwise. ...recently completed" (p 2)
....while on page 3, its explained that they were so arranged as to line
and level so as to be incorporated at a later date in a new system of
tube tunnels should further developement be necessary. But no mention
of any pre-exiting plans at all.

The very existence of such an account , which appears to be a
supplement from a Civil Engineering journal, the quality of the
production etc is somewhat surprising given the circumstances
under which it was produced. Presumably it would have had
positive propaganda value not only at home to counter claims
that not enough was being done but if it fell into enemy hands -
the extensive measures the UK Govt takes to protect
its own citizens. Even if by that stage, as it turned out
thankfully, the worst of the conventional bombing was over


Such express tubes were under consideration from 1937 onwards (see
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/victoria.html for some details)


Indeed on the route of what became the Victoria line

"The first plan which was a recognisable precursor of the Victoria Line
appeared in 1937. A new express tube line would run from Victoria to
Finsbury Park "

whereas for the Northeren Line

"After World War II, a 1946 plan for London envisaged providing a completely
separate express route under the Northern Line, allowing the Victoria and
Finsbury Park route (now called "route 8") to serve new markets"

However plans are one thing, obtaining the necessary funding is another
which has been the story of the Underground since its inception really.
Had the whole thing been constructed during the course of a five year
plan using slave labour at the whim of some tyrant then presumably
its history wouldn't have been quite so interesting or given so
much scope for speculation.


and at some times were planned to be capable of carrying mainline stock. So it's not
surprising that a 16'6" *non* station tunnel size was chosen.



michael adams