Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:41:19 on
Sun, 31 May 2015, Paul Corfield remarked:
Stansted is really
outside TfL's influence and, to be honest, I don't think TfL should be
faffing around trying to run longer distance trains. There's more than
enough for them to fix within Greater London.

Why is there talk about extending Oyster to Luton and Gatwick airports
then? It makes no sense to do those two and not Stansted.

It is, after all, "London's third airport", which Luton isn't.

Surely it's worth having it on Oyster, whoever runs the trains? I think a
lot more Londoners would use it if no separate tickets were required. It
would also be easier to sell pre-paid Visitor Oyster cards if they already
came loaded with enough credit to pay for the journey to London plus some
more travelling in London.

On 31/05/2015 10:41, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 30 May 2015 11:51:18 +0100, Someone Somewhere
wrote:

On 30/05/2015 00:06, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 29 May 2015 19:33:54 +0100, "
wrote:

Will TfL also operate the Stansted Express, BTW, or will Abelia continue
to hold that concession?

There is zero logic in TfL having any involvement in express services
to Stansted.


It may also bring the prices down....

It would not do so because TfL are now tied into a process of
requiring DfT consent to changing fares on NR routes that are devolved
to TfL. They are not permitted to undercut parallel TOC services. This
is all set out in a recent TfL Fares Advice paper to the Mayor. There
are also similar provisions in the Crossrail Agreement but the DfT
have carefully ensured those clauses are redacted in the publicly
available version of the agreement. I only know they apply to
Crossrail because what TfL said in the Fares Advice Paper. Anyone
expecting a cheap fares bonanza if TfL take over their rail services
is going to be disappointed.

Soooo.... does that imply that Crossrail fares to e.g. Heathrow are
going to be set at a rail rate (presumably Connect rather than Express)
rather than at Tube rate, ie the Piccadilly line?

Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 31/05/2015 10:41, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 30 May 2015 11:51:18 +0100, Someone Somewhere
wrote:

On 30/05/2015 00:06, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 29 May 2015 19:33:54 +0100, "
wrote:

Will TfL also operate the Stansted Express, BTW, or will Abelia continue
to hold that concession?

There is zero logic in TfL having any involvement in express services
to Stansted.


It may also bring the prices down....

It would not do so because TfL are now tied into a process of
requiring DfT consent to changing fares on NR routes that are devolved
to TfL. They are not permitted to undercut parallel TOC services. This
is all set out in a recent TfL Fares Advice paper to the Mayor. There
are also similar provisions in the Crossrail Agreement but the DfT
have carefully ensured those clauses are redacted in the publicly
available version of the agreement. I only know they apply to
Crossrail because what TfL said in the Fares Advice Paper. Anyone
expecting a cheap fares bonanza if TfL take over their rail services
is going to be disappointed.

Soooo.... does that imply that Crossrail fares to e.g. Heathrow are going
to be set at a rail rate (presumably Connect rather than Express) rather
than at Tube rate, ie the Piccadilly line?

Yes, I think so. The Heathrow tunnel is owned by HAL, who want to make sure
that HEx isn't undercut too much, particularly as Crossrail will also have
4tph, like HEx. Crossrail will be a bit slower, and the trains less swish,
but with the same frequency, and a much more useful range of destinations,
the majority of pax are likely to prefer it.

I just hope the official HEx ticket touts don't steer too many people on to
the more expensive, less useful service first. If they don't know to look
for it, visitors arriving at Heathrow T5 wouldn't see a Tube sign before
being sold a HEx ticket.

In message , at 11:38:15 on
Sun, 31 May 2015, Paul Corfield remarked:
If you were HAL you would have wanted guarantees about the revenue due
to you so you could pay off the debt incurred in constructing the
tunnels into Heathrow. I believe the agreement runs to 2023 when the
debt should be clear. Goodness knows what happens then.

I suspect that Heathrow will come properly "into the Zones", but HEx
will be allowed to run trains through the core, at least as far as
docklands (or Stratford if that's a more logical place to reverse them).
--
Roland Perry

On 31/05/2015 10:41, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2015 11:51:18 +0100, Someone Somewhere
[snip]
It may also bring the prices down....

It would not do so because TfL are now tied into a process of
requiring DfT consent to changing fares on NR routes that are devolved
to TfL. They are not permitted to undercut parallel TOC services. This
is all set out in a recent TfL Fares Advice paper to the Mayor. There
are also similar provisions in the Crossrail Agreement but the DfT
have carefully ensured those clauses are redacted in the publicly
available version of the agreement. I only know they apply to
Crossrail because what TfL said in the Fares Advice Paper. Anyone
expecting a cheap fares bonanza if TfL take over their rail services
is going to be disappointed.


Very interesting stuff, thanks - I noticed the reference to that
regarding Crossrail in some document (poss. just a press release)
recently, I didn't realise this was a wider policy. The remaining AGA
(TOC) services via the Lea Valley seem to avoid any problem along those
lines by switching to the TfL tariff - is this just going to apply to
any new transfers to TfL control, or will it apply to LO on the Brighton
main line down to Croydon? (I will take a look at the full paper I
promise rather than just badgering you for summaries!)

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 10:41:19AM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

They are not permitted to undercut parallel TOC services.

We wouldn't want to have multiple operators on a route actually
competing with each other, would we!

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders"

Irregular English:
ladies glow; gentlemen perspire; brutes, oafs and athletes sweat

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 13:04:38 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 10:41:19AM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

They are not permitted to undercut parallel TOC services.

We wouldn't want to have multiple operators on a route actually
competing with each other, would we!

Well the context is suburban services in London, not Inter City or
inter-regional journeys where you might want to argue that buying an
advance, single operator ticket warrants a discount because spare
capacity is available at that time. Hardly works in the context of
jam packed full commuter trains where there's barely an inch of space.
It also doesn't really work in the context of potentially subsidised
TfL operations abstracting revenue from premium paying franchisees.
You're then just shovelling money round parts of the public sector,
looked at a macro level. The Treasury tend not to like "money go
rounds".

I can't see any form of main line rail service competition working on
the London commuter network. We sort of have it between tube and main
line rail in parts of London but the difference there is also on
service frequency etc as well as sometimes on price by virtue of the
different PAYG tariffs.

We have competition between Cambridge and London between GTR and AGA, the
latter offering Advance and other discounted AGA-only fares.

I expect the same sort of thing will start from Oxford to London when the
new route from Marylebone gets going.

--
Colin Rosenstiel