Contactless and revenue checks
 

Its easy for the revenue guys little handheld machine to check a valid
oyster card or not since the data is held on the card. But how do they deal with
contactless bank cards? The card itself will have no knowledge of the journey
and I doubt these devices have a wifi connection to TfL HQ to check if the
bank account has any money in it and whether the card has been touched in etc
so how does it work? Or not?

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

In message , at 09:39:39 on Thu, 4 Feb
2016, d remarked:
Its easy for the revenue guys little handheld machine to check a valid
oyster card or not since the data is held on the card. But how do they deal with
contactless bank cards? The card itself will have no knowledge of the journey
and I doubt these devices have a wifi connection to TfL HQ to check if the
bank account has any money in it and whether the card has been touched in etc
so how does it work? Or not?

Simply by the T&C of using a contactless card on TfL allows them charge
the card later (without any further seeking of permission) if it emerges
that the fare wasn't paid.

As for "burner cards" (I've got two of them) that's just a cost of doing
business. Whether they'd chase an offender for one lost fare is
debateable, although they might well prosecute a sample repeat offender
and make sure it's in the newspaper "to encourage the others".
--
Roland Perry

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 10:23:23 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:39 on Thu, 4 Feb
2016, d remarked:
Its easy for the revenue guys little handheld machine to check a valid
oyster card or not since the data is held on the card. But how do they deal
with
contactless bank cards? The card itself will have no knowledge of the journey
and I doubt these devices have a wifi connection to TfL HQ to check if the
bank account has any money in it and whether the card has been touched in etc
so how does it work? Or not?

Simply by the T&C of using a contactless card on TfL allows them charge
the card later (without any further seeking of permission) if it emerges
that the fare wasn't paid.

So the hand held reader just records the card number and a check is done
later? Makes sense.

As for "burner cards" (I've got two of them) that's just a cost of doing

Burner cards?

business. Whether they'd chase an offender for one lost fare is
debateable, although they might well prosecute a sample repeat offender
and make sure it's in the newspaper "to encourage the others".

They'd have to trace the card owner through the bank first. I very much doubt
the bank would oblidge them without a warrant and if its a foreign bank they
can forget it.

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

The RID, the new Revenue Inspection Device, checks only that the contactless card has been used to enter the system. It says PASSED or FAILED and gives a serial number unrelated to the card number. No details of the card are kept in the RID.

Contactless and revenue checks
 

In message , at 11:01:00 on Thu, 4 Feb
2016, d remarked:

As for "burner cards" (I've got two of them) that's just a cost of doing

Burner cards?

Prepay cards - I've got two and one has zero on it the other about a
tenner.

business. Whether they'd chase an offender for one lost fare is
debateable, although they might well prosecute a sample repeat offender
and make sure it's in the newspaper "to encourage the others".

They'd have to trace the card owner through the bank first. I very much doubt
the bank would oblidge them without a warrant and if its a foreign bank they
can forget it.

Given that the police and the banks run a joint card-fraud operation, I
suspect that it wouldn't be as hard as you think (and there are special
rules which in effect mean that fraud investigations aren't covered by
data protection nondisclosure).

But the cost of such an investigation would be prohibitive if they
weren't trying to make an example of someone.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 03:58:29 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote:
The RID, the new Revenue Inspection Device, checks only that the contactless
card has been used to enter the system. It says PASSED or FAILED and gives a

But how does it know? Does it have a 3G or wifi link to head office? This
information certainly won't be stored on the bank card.

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 11:59:13 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:01:00 on Thu, 4 Feb
2016, d remarked:

As for "burner cards" (I've got two of them) that's just a cost of doing

Burner cards?

Prepay cards - I've got two and one has zero on it the other about a
tenner.

Might get one of them. They issued by your bank or can you just but them
somewhere?

They'd have to trace the card owner through the bank first. I very much doubt
the bank would oblidge them without a warrant and if its a foreign bank they
can forget it.

Given that the police and the banks run a joint card-fraud operation, I
suspect that it wouldn't be as hard as you think (and there are special

Ah, but I doubt NOT using your card when you should have counts as card fraud
as far as the banks are concerned.

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

In message , at 12:07:13 on Thu, 4 Feb
2016, d remarked:

As for "burner cards" (I've got two of them) that's just a cost of doing

Burner cards?

Prepay cards - I've got two and one has zero on it the other about a
tenner.

Might get one of them. They issued by your bank or can you just but them
somewhere?

It's hard to find contactless ones, but I got an "Orange" card (yes, the
mobile phone company) but they recently threw in the towel[1] and the
business has been rebranded: http://www.myoptimumcard.co.uk/

They'd have to trace the card owner through the bank first. I very much doubt
the bank would oblidge them without a warrant and if its a foreign bank they
can forget it.

Given that the police and the banks run a joint card-fraud operation, I
suspect that it wouldn't be as hard as you think (and there are special

Ah, but I doubt NOT using your card when you should have counts as card fraud
as far as the banks are concerned.

No, but doing a runner after failing to have the funds loaded, when they
later try to charge the card, might be.

[1] As they also did with their Film-Wednesdays incentive.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless and revenue checks
 

Contactless and revenue checks
 

Robin wrote:
d wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 03:58:29 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote:
The RID, the new Revenue Inspection Device, checks only that the
contactless card has been used to enter the system. It says PASSED
or FAILED and gives a

But how does it know? Does it have a 3G or wifi link to head office?
This information certainly won't be stored on the bank card.

AIUI there's an overnight reconciliation. The revenue inspector
records the card. Back office checks overnight that that card was
used to tap in. If not then they take a maximum Oyster fare from the
card.

Sorry - just noticed that Offramp referred to a *new* RID. What I said
dates from 2014 so is probably so out of date - and wrong.
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 14:17:39 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 03:58:29 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote:
The RID, the new Revenue Inspection Device, checks only that the
contactless card has been used to enter the system. It says PASSED
or FAILED and gives a

But how does it know? Does it have a 3G or wifi link to head office?
This information certainly won't be stored on the bank card.

AIUI there's an overnight reconciliation. The revenue inspector records
the card. Back office checks overnight that that card was used to tap
in. If not then they take a maximum Oyster fare from the card.

Hmm. I don't like the idea of a company being able to extract money from
someones card without permission because there's always the danger of an error
which goes unnoticed by the owner or if the card has been nicked. It would be
far better if they just blocked it so it couldn't be used again until the owner
paid the fare.

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 14:21:15 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
Robin wrote:
d wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 03:58:29 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote:
The RID, the new Revenue Inspection Device, checks only that the
contactless card has been used to enter the system. It says PASSED
or FAILED and gives a

But how does it know? Does it have a 3G or wifi link to head office?
This information certainly won't be stored on the bank card.

AIUI there's an overnight reconciliation. The revenue inspector
records the card. Back office checks overnight that that card was
used to tap in. If not then they take a maximum Oyster fare from the
card.

Sorry - just noticed that Offramp referred to a *new* RID. What I said
dates from 2014 so is probably so out of date - and wrong.

Well unless the RID has a realtime radio link to the main computer I don't
see how else it could be done other than by a reconciliation later.

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On 04/02/2016 15:03, d wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 14:17:39 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
d wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 03:58:29 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote:
The RID, the new Revenue Inspection Device, checks only that the
contactless card has been used to enter the system. It says PASSED
or FAILED and gives a

But how does it know? Does it have a 3G or wifi link to head office?
This information certainly won't be stored on the bank card.

AIUI there's an overnight reconciliation. The revenue inspector records
the card. Back office checks overnight that that card was used to tap
in. If not then they take a maximum Oyster fare from the card.

Hmm. I don't like the idea of a company being able to extract money from
someones card without permission because there's always the danger of an error
which goes unnoticed by the owner or if the card has been nicked. It would be
far better if they just blocked it so it couldn't be used again until the owner
paid the fare.


How is this worse than someone losing their card, and some perp finding
it and ordering a round in the nearest pub? In fact it's better as the
owner in this case has a far longer window to notice and block the card.
I presume that once TfL have been unable to extract money from the
card it would be barred until the situation had been resolved (mostly in
the case of a stolen card, never).

I assume that the machines read the card electronically, and this has
all sorts of checks and balances to avoid misreading and hence errors
are very unlikely to occur.

Contactless and revenue checks
 

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:27:53 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
wrote:

Hmm. I don't like the idea of a company being able to extract money
from someones card without permission because there's always the
danger of an error which goes unnoticed by the owner or if the card
has been nicked. It would be far better if they just blocked it so it
couldn't be used again until the owner paid the fare.

I don't see how you arrive at "without permission". From Contactless
Conds of Carriage : "2.3 When you touch your contactless payment card on
a yellow card reader, or a portable card reader held by staff, you are
giving authorisation for the cost of your journey, including any maximum
fares or unpaid fares, to be charged to your card account."

Well given no setup is required for using a contactless card on the tube
these conditions of carraige need to be clearly printed next to each gateline
so anyone who pops into the tube using contactless can see them. Are they?
No. In which case they have as much legal authority as a copy of the Beano
and I suspect any challenge in court would be successful.

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:27:53 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
wrote:

Hmm. I don't like the idea of a company being able to extract money
from someones card without permission because there's always the
danger of an error which goes unnoticed by the owner or if the card
has been nicked. It would be far better if they just blocked it so it
couldn't be used again until the owner paid the fare.

I don't see how you arrive at "without permission". From Contactless
Conds of Carriage : "2.3 When you touch your contactless payment card on
a yellow card reader, or a portable card reader held by staff, you are
giving authorisation for the cost of your journey, including any maximum
fares or unpaid fares, to be charged to your card account."

Well given no setup is required for using a contactless card on the tube
these conditions of carraige need to be clearly printed next to each gateline
so anyone who pops into the tube using contactless can see them. Are they?
No. In which case they have as much legal authority as a copy of the Beano
since someone must be made aware of any and all conditions of a contract they
even unwittingly enter into. (Eg parking companies can't get away with hiding
their terms and conditions on a notice hidden behind a tree). I suspect any
challenge in court would be successful.

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

So how does the system deal with someone entering at an ungated station to exit at another ungated station, carrying a pre-paid card with a zero balance? If gripped it seems the RPI won't be able to tell whether or not they touched in and whilst the overnight reconciliation would try to charge a maximum fare for an unresolved journey but this would be declined due to the zero balance.

It is a bit theoretical though, as I doubt there's enough potential ungated to ungated journeys that would make this a worthwhile bit of larceny.
--
Roy

Contactless and revenue checks
 

So how does the system deal with someone entering at an ungated station to exit at another ungated station,
carrying a pre-paid card with a zero balance? If gripped it seems the RPI won't be able to tell whether or
not they touched in and whilst the overnight reconciliation would try to charge a maximum fare for an
unresolved journey but this would be declined due to the zero balance.

It probably doesn't. Keep in mind that the goal isn't necessarily to
have £0.00 in lost revenue, it's to get as much net revenue as
possible. The savings in not having to sell and manage zillions of
Oyster cards likely would pay for a fair amount of contactless
shenanigans.

In the worst case, they could just stop accepting prepaid cards other
than Oyster. The prefix of the card number identifies the type of
card.

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:45:17 -0800 (PST)
Roy wrote:
So how does the system deal with someone entering at an ungated station to =
exit at another ungated station, carrying a pre-paid card with a zero balan=
ce? If gripped it seems the RPI won't be able to tell whether or not they =
touched in and whilst the overnight reconciliation would try to charge a ma=
ximum fare for an unresolved journey but this would be declined due to the =
zero balance.

It is a bit theoretical though, as I doubt there's enough potential ungated=
to ungated journeys that would make this a worthwhile bit of larceny.

Anywhere to anywhere on the DLR. Also some of the platforms from finsbury
park high level are ungated so you can get to the tube without touching in.

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

In message , at 01:07:41 on Fri, 5 Feb
2016, John Levine remarked:
So how does the system deal with someone entering at an ungated
station to exit at another ungated station,
carrying a pre-paid card with a zero balance? If gripped it seems the
RPI won't be able to tell whether or
not they touched in and whilst the overnight reconciliation would try
to charge a maximum fare for an
unresolved journey but this would be declined due to the zero balance.

It probably doesn't. Keep in mind that the goal isn't necessarily to
have £0.00 in lost revenue, it's to get as much net revenue as
possible. The savings in not having to sell and manage zillions of
Oyster cards likely would pay for a fair amount of contactless
shenanigans.

In the worst case, they could just stop accepting prepaid cards other
than Oyster. The prefix of the card number identifies the type of
card.

That'd be a bad move for tourists as many of the cards which are issued
in foreign (to the tourist) currency are prepay Mastercards. Although
they are not ideal for a party travelling together as you require one
each.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On 2016-02-05 01:07:41 +0000, John Levine said:

It probably doesn't. Keep in mind that the goal isn't necessarily to
have £0.00 in lost revenue, it's to get as much net revenue as
possible. The savings in not having to sell and manage zillions of
Oyster cards likely would pay for a fair amount of contactless
shenanigans.

Indeed. The aim is the maximum income to the business. It can for
example be that there is no point pursuing certain lost revenue because
pursuing it is more expensive than the actual revenue. It seems clear
that London Midland have taken this approach for late evening journeys
on the WCML not involving London - there is no attempt at revenue
protection whatsoever. I know a few people who refer to late night
MKC-BLY as "the free train", and in practice they are not wrong (even
though I'm well behaved and pay).

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Contactless and revenue checks
 

In the worst case, they could just stop accepting prepaid cards other
than Oyster. The prefix of the card number identifies the type of
card.

That'd be a bad move for tourists as many of the cards which are issued
in foreign (to the tourist) currency are prepay Mastercards. Although
they are not ideal for a party travelling together as you require one
each.

The Travelex card (which offers the usual Travelex stupendously bad
exchange rates) is not contactless. Are there tourist prepaid cards
that are?

Also keep in mind that we tourists can and do use our regular cards.
When I was in the UK last year, I used my US issued AmEx card on the
tube and it worked fine, with one charge per day posted on the days I
used it. Dunno how many tourists know about it, but it'd be worth
some posters at the airport tube stations.

Contactless and revenue checks
 

In message , at 21:32:14 on Fri, 5 Feb
2016, John Levine remarked:
In the worst case, they could just stop accepting prepaid cards other
than Oyster. The prefix of the card number identifies the type of
card.

That'd be a bad move for tourists as many of the cards which are issued
in foreign (to the tourist) currency are prepay Mastercards. Although
they are not ideal for a party travelling together as you require one
each.

The Travelex card (which offers the usual Travelex stupendously bad
exchange rates) is not contactless. Are there tourist prepaid cards
that are?

I thought the Post Office ones were, but having trouble confirming that.

Also keep in mind that we tourists can and do use our regular cards.
When I was in the UK last year, I used my US issued AmEx card on the
tube and it worked fine, with one charge per day posted on the days I
used it. Dunno how many tourists know about it, but it'd be worth
some posters at the airport tube stations.

--
Roland Perry

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Thu, Feb 04, 2016 at 03:04:51PM +0000, d wrote:

Well unless the RID has a realtime radio link to the main computer I don't
see how else it could be done other than by a reconciliation later.

Mobile data hardware and airtime is dirt cheap these days, so I'd not be
at all surprised to learn that ticket inspectors' hand-held devices can
talk to head office in real time.

--
David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat

It wouldn't hurt to think like a serial killer every so often.
Purely for purposes of prevention, of course.

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 15:48:39 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Feb 04, 2016 at 03:04:51PM +0000, d wrote:

Well unless the RID has a realtime radio link to the main computer I don't
see how else it could be done other than by a reconciliation later.

Mobile data hardware and airtime is dirt cheap these days, so I'd not be
at all surprised to learn that ticket inspectors' hand-held devices can
talk to head office in real time.

Maybe. Though they seem to work rather quicker than I'd expect if there was
a round trip request via a GSM link. Also I've seen them being used in the
DLR tunnel to Bank where there's no chance of a signal (I assume DLR use the
same system). Quite why they were bothering to do a revenue check just before
one of the few stations on the DLR where you *can't* get out without a ticket
is anyones guess.

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On 08/02/2016 16:16, d wrote:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 15:48:39 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Feb 04, 2016 at 03:04:51PM +0000, d wrote:

Well unless the RID has a realtime radio link to the main computer I don't
see how else it could be done other than by a reconciliation later.

Mobile data hardware and airtime is dirt cheap these days, so I'd not be
at all surprised to learn that ticket inspectors' hand-held devices can
talk to head office in real time.

Maybe. Though they seem to work rather quicker than I'd expect if there was
a round trip request via a GSM link. Also I've seen them being used in the
DLR tunnel to Bank where there's no chance of a signal (I assume DLR use the
same system). Quite why they were bothering to do a revenue check just before
one of the few stations on the DLR where you *can't* get out without a ticket
is anyones guess.

--
Spud

Quick trip on the W&C line to Waterloo and you're out and free...

Although you're right - it does seem to happen a fair amount more than
you would expect on that bit.

Contactless and revenue checks
 

In message , at 15:48:39
on Mon, 8 Feb 2016, David Cantrell remarked:

Well unless the RID has a realtime radio link to the main computer I don't
see how else it could be done other than by a reconciliation later.

Mobile data hardware and airtime is dirt cheap these days, so I'd not be
at all surprised to learn that ticket inspectors' hand-held devices can
talk to head office in real time.

The problem with that is the lack of coverage, especially in the hostile
tube/sub-surface environment. If you want to be able to do checks in
real time you have to be able to know who touched in (or didn't) at the
station you just left a minute ago.

I was thinking you might manage it, just, if every station had reliable
wifi you can snatch 20 seconds at a time, but even then there will be
times that the data hasn't caught up with the inspectors.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 17:02:10 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 08/02/2016 16:16, d wrote:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 15:48:39 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Feb 04, 2016 at 03:04:51PM +0000, d wrote:

Well unless the RID has a realtime radio link to the main computer I don't
see how else it could be done other than by a reconciliation later.

Mobile data hardware and airtime is dirt cheap these days, so I'd not be
at all surprised to learn that ticket inspectors' hand-held devices can
talk to head office in real time.

Maybe. Though they seem to work rather quicker than I'd expect if there was
a round trip request via a GSM link. Also I've seen them being used in the
DLR tunnel to Bank where there's no chance of a signal (I assume DLR use the
same system). Quite why they were bothering to do a revenue check just before
one of the few stations on the DLR where you *can't* get out without a ticket
is anyones guess.

--
Spud

Quick trip on the W&C line to Waterloo and you're out and free...

Didn't know that. In which case I can understand the logic then :)

--
Spud

Contactless and revenue checks
 

On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 04:16:57PM +0000, d wrote:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 15:48:39 +0000 David Cantrell wrote:
Mobile data hardware and airtime is dirt cheap these days, so I'd not be
at all surprised to learn that ticket inspectors' hand-held devices can
talk to head office in real time.
Maybe. Though they seem to work rather quicker than I'd expect if there was
a round trip request via a GSM link.

Connection setup is slow, but once it's up sending a few packets back
and forth via GSM (well, more likely to be 3G or 4G these days) is going
to be fast enough. And I expect that the connection would come up once
and stay up until the user stops scanning cards.

--
David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat

Arbeit macht Alkoholiker