Turning London orange
 

TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...erent-6143328/

Turning London orange
 

Neil Williams wrote:
On 2016-09-21 20:31:00 +0000, Recliner said:

TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...erent-6143328/


Interesting. If they do get all those, I wonder would some kind of
line naming or German-style route numbering make sense? A big map of
orange lines is not an awful lot more useful than what is the case now.

Yes, I think a German-style route numbering system would make sense. That's
probably already true of the existing Overground, let alone the much
expanded one envisaged.

Turning London orange
 

On 2016\09\21 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...erent-6143328/


Thanks. Looks like Deptford Park (Surrey Canal Road) is not getting
built at all!

Turning London orange
 

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 03:23:04 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\09\21 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...erent-6143328/


Thanks. Looks like Deptford Park (Surrey Canal Road) is not getting
built at all!

New Bermondsey Shirley ? It seems to be dependant on if/when the
related development gets finished (or even started). This month's
start date seems to be some time next year.
https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/inmyarea...d-answers.aspx

Turning London orange
 

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 21:37:34 on Wed, 21 Sep 2016, Recliner
remarked:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...erent-6143328/


Interesting. If they do get all those, I wonder would some kind of
line naming or German-style route numbering make sense? A big map of
orange lines is not an awful lot more useful than what is the case now.

Yes, I think a German-style route numbering system would make sense. That's
probably already true of the existing Overground, let alone the much
expanded one envisaged.

Ditto for Thameslink - and most of the existing documentation shows it
split into the various routes already.
--
Roland Perry

Turning London orange
 

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 10:02:07 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-sept
ember.org, at 21:37:34 on Wed, 21 Sep 2016, Recliner
remarked:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/


Interesting. If they do get all those, I wonder would some kind of
line naming or German-style route numbering make sense? A big map of
orange lines is not an awful lot more useful than what is the case now.

Yes, I think a German-style route numbering system would make sense. That's
probably already true of the existing Overground, let alone the much
expanded one envisaged.

Ditto for Thameslink - and most of the existing documentation shows it
split into the various routes already.

Couldn't hurt doing it on the DLR either.

--
Spud

Turning London orange
 

On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...erent-6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Turning London orange
 

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud

Turning London orange
 

TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...erent-6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

I note a bunch of arrows at the ends of the various lines, so based on
the text that says they want to take over the various franchises, I
assume we'd have TfL at least as far as Kings Lynn. It would certainly
be handy to pay for my jaunts between Cambridge and Ely with my senior
Oyster.

Turning London orange
 

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast

tim

Turning London orange
 

tim... wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places like
Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

Turning London orange
 

On 22.09.16 16:48, Recliner wrote:
tim... wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places like
Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Turning London orange
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south
london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been
living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just
outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which
carry
main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places like
Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

It's the increases in service frequency that causes the problem

it takes away the fast paths for the expresses so they have to saunter
through South London behind a stopper all the way

tim

Turning London orange
 

In article , (John Levine)
wrote:

TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into the Overground:



http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...k-very-differe
nt-6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

I note a bunch of arrows at the ends of the various lines, so based on
the text that says they want to take over the various franchises, I
assume we'd have TfL at least as far as Kings Lynn. It would certainly
be handy to pay for my jaunts between Cambridge and Ely with my senior
Oyster.

Not flipping likely! You can go just beyond the edge of Greater London to a
suitable terminal like Welwyn Garden City maybe but no further without
democratic control from the people outside London.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Turning London orange
 

In article , () wrote:

On 22.09.16 16:48, Recliner wrote:
tim... wrote:

wrote in message
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...o-look-very-di
fferent6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official
TfL mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the
south london lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will
give them an easy time because they're a public corp rather than a
TOC has obviously been living in a cave for the last 20 years.

The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just
outside) of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes
which carry main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places
like Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

No, not even Thameslink within Greater London.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Turning London orange
 

wrote:
On 22.09.16 16:48, Recliner wrote:
tim... wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places like
Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Not that I'm aware of, and not according to the news report. Do you have a
link?

Turning London orange
 

On 22.09.16 20:00, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 22.09.16 16:48, Recliner wrote:
tim... wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places like
Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Not that I'm aware of, and not according to the news report. Do you have a
link?

No, I thought that I read it on this group. IIRC, it was more of a
long-term plan, rather than anything around the corner.

Turning London orange
 

wrote:
On 22.09.16 20:00, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 22.09.16 16:48, Recliner wrote:
tim... wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places like
Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Not that I'm aware of, and not according to the news report. Do you have a
link?

No, I thought that I read it on this group. IIRC, it was more of a
long-term plan, rather than anything around the corner.

It's certainly not a plan, and not even an aspiration as far as I'm aware.
The aim is to take over suburban stopping services that run entirely or
mainly in the GLA. The London mayor aims to deliver better, more
coordinated local services to local voters.

Turning London orange
 

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 14:45:29 on Fri, 23 Sep 2016, Recliner
remarked:

The London mayor aims to deliver better, more coordinated local
services to local voters.

In the same way he aimed not to raise fares, and within days of taking
office had to retract?
--
Roland Perry

Turning London orange
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-sept
ember.org, at 14:45:29 on Fri, 23 Sep 2016, Recliner
remarked:

The London mayor aims to deliver better, more coordinated local
services to local voters.

In the same way he aimed not to raise fares, and within days of taking
office had to retract?

He's delivering exactly what he said he would: a TfL fares freeze. He never
promised to freeze other fares, and has no ability to do so.

Turning London orange
 

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 15:27:14 on Fri, 23 Sep 2016, Recliner
remarked:
The London mayor aims to deliver better, more coordinated local
services to local voters.

In the same way he aimed not to raise fares, and within days of taking
office had to retract?

He's delivering exactly what he said he would: a TfL fares freeze. He never
promised to freeze other fares, and has no ability to do so.

Actually he did, and I agree he doesn't.
--
Roland Perry

Turning London orange
 

On 23/09/2016 17:22, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 15:27:14 on Fri, 23 Sep 2016, Recliner
remarked:
The London mayor aims to deliver better, more coordinated local
services to local voters.

In the same way he aimed not to raise fares, and within days of taking
office had to retract?

He's delivering exactly what he said he would: a TfL fares freeze. He
never promised to freeze other fares, and has no ability to do so.

Actually he did, and I agree he doesn't.

He didn't promise any more than that, and didn't "retract" anything.

From his manifesto...

"Freeze TfL transport fares for four years [...]"
(page 8, PDF page 9)

http://preview.tinyurl.com/SadiqManifesto2016

Turning London orange
 

On 23/09/2016 15:45, Recliner wrote:

wrote:
[...]
Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Not that I'm aware of, and not according to the news report. Do you have a
link?

No, I thought that I read it on this group. IIRC, it was more of a
long-term plan, rather than anything around the corner.

It's certainly not a plan, and not even an aspiration as far as I'm aware.
The aim is to take over suburban stopping services that run entirely or
mainly in the GLA. The London mayor aims to deliver better, more
coordinated local services to local voters.


Was there not someone suggesting that TfL management could be drafted in
to try and sort out the slow-motion train wreck that is Southern/GTR?
Not something that has ever been Mayoral / TfL policy. Nor something I'd
imagine anyone in TfL would actually want to do.

Turning London orange
 

On 23/09/2016 18:08, Mizter T wrote:

On 23/09/2016 15:45, Recliner wrote:

wrote:
[...]
Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Not that I'm aware of, and not according to the news report. Do you
have a
link?

No, I thought that I read it on this group. IIRC, it was more of a
long-term plan, rather than anything around the corner.

It's certainly not a plan, and not even an aspiration as far as I'm
aware.
The aim is to take over suburban stopping services that run entirely or
mainly in the GLA. The London mayor aims to deliver better, more
coordinated local services to local voters.


Was there not someone suggesting that TfL management could be drafted in
to try and sort out the slow-motion train wreck that is Southern/GTR?
Not something that has ever been Mayoral / TfL policy. Nor something I'd
imagine anyone in TfL would actually want to do.

Given the situation at Southern/GTR is a fight between a reactionary
union and a reactionary DfT I can't see TfL wanting to touch it with a
proverbial barge pole.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Turning London orange
 

On 23/09/2016 18:24, Graeme Wall wrote:

wrote:
[...]
Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Was there not someone suggesting that TfL management could be drafted in
to try and sort out the slow-motion train wreck that is Southern/GTR?
Not something that has ever been Mayoral / TfL policy. Nor something I'd
imagine anyone in TfL would actually want to do.

Given the situation at Southern/GTR is a fight between a reactionary
union and a reactionary DfT I can't see TfL wanting to touch it with a
proverbial barge pole.

Quite! It's toxic, stay well away!

Turning London orange
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On 23/09/2016 15:45, Recliner wrote:

wrote:
[...]
Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Not that I'm aware of, and not according to the news report. Do you
have a
link?

No, I thought that I read it on this group. IIRC, it was more of a
long-term plan, rather than anything around the corner.

It's certainly not a plan, and not even an aspiration as far as I'm
aware.
The aim is to take over suburban stopping services that run entirely or
mainly in the GLA. The London mayor aims to deliver better, more
coordinated local services to local voters.


Was there not someone suggesting that TfL management could be drafted in
to try and sort out the slow-motion train wreck that is Southern/GTR?

It was political pestering

I'd give you a million to one that the mayor's idea of "sorting it out" is
giving into union demand immediately - he is a socialist (fsvo) after all.

tim

Turning London orange
 

tim... wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On 23/09/2016 15:45, Recliner wrote:

wrote:
[...]
Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Not that I'm aware of, and not according to the news report. Do you
have a
link?

No, I thought that I read it on this group. IIRC, it was more of a
long-term plan, rather than anything around the corner.

It's certainly not a plan, and not even an aspiration as far as I'm
aware.
The aim is to take over suburban stopping services that run entirely or
mainly in the GLA. The London mayor aims to deliver better, more
coordinated local services to local voters.


Was there not someone suggesting that TfL management could be drafted in
to try and sort out the slow-motion train wreck that is Southern/GTR?

It was political pestering

I'd give you a million to one that the mayor's idea of "sorting it out" is
giving into union demand immediately - he is a socialist (fsvo) after all.

Yes, the mayor did generously offer to sort out GTR for the DfT, but I
think his 'solution' would be just as you say.

However, it has to be said that TfL did get rid of the guards on all LO
routes, and is currently eliminating the 300 platform attendants from Boris
buses, in both cases without strikes.

http://www.barking-gospeloak.org.uk/...s_bulletin.pdf

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2...and-old-guard/

http://www.railwaystrategies.co.uk/a...71&issueid=530

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36764417

I thought it was telling that a Labour mayor is getting rid of 300 jobs on
the buses with no industrial protests, while the unions are indulging in
incessant strikes and sickies on Southern that simply wants to change the
role of train guards, with no loss of jobs or conditions.

Turning London orange
 

On 22-Sep-16 4:27 PM, tim... wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different

6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an
easy time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been
living in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just
outside) of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes
which carry main line services to the coast

tim






So they are going to increase the frequency of the Epsom, Kingston,
Chhessington & Hampton Court lines.

Where are the extra paths going to come from through Wimbledon?

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Turning London orange
 

In article , (Tony
Dragon) wrote:

On 22-Sep-16 4:27 PM, tim... wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...k-very-differe
nt-6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south
london lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them
an easy time because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has
obviously been living in a cave for the last 20 years.

The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just
outside) of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes
which carry main line services to the coast

So they are going to increase the frequency of the Epsom, Kingston,
Chhessington & Hampton Court lines.

Where are the extra paths going to come from through Wimbledon?

Crossrail 2 will divert a lot of such traffic into a new tunnel.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Turning London orange
 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 18:26:07 +0100, Mizter T
wrote:


On 23/09/2016 18:24, Graeme Wall wrote:

wrote:
[...]
Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Was there not someone suggesting that TfL management could be drafted in
to try and sort out the slow-motion train wreck that is Southern/GTR?
Not something that has ever been Mayoral / TfL policy. Nor something I'd
imagine anyone in TfL would actually want to do.

ISTR something about MK-West Croydon being in the firing line for a
TfL takeover. The anomolous bit for that would be WFJ-MK. OTOH some SN
short services from Shepherds Bush to Clapham Junction have already
effectively been taken over by LO during the dispute :-
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/trai...09/23/advanced
appearing to be the partial substitute for :-
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/trai...09/23/advanced

Given the situation at Southern/GTR is a fight between a reactionary
union and a reactionary DfT I can't see TfL wanting to touch it with a
proverbial barge pole.

Quite! It's toxic, stay well away!

Turning London orange
 

In message , at 18:01:42 on Fri, 23 Sep
2016, Mizter T remarked:
The London mayor aims to deliver better, more coordinated local
services to local voters.

In the same way he aimed not to raise fares, and within days of taking
office had to retract?

He's delivering exactly what he said he would: a TfL fares freeze. He
never promised to freeze other fares, and has no ability to do so.

Actually he did, and I agree he doesn't.

He didn't promise any more than that, and didn't "retract" anything.

From his manifesto...

"Freeze TfL transport fares for four years [...]"
(page 8, PDF page 9)

http://preview.tinyurl.com/SadiqManifesto2016

The paragraph from his manifesto which was quoted the most was:

"Londoners won't pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than they do
today."

Londoners don't only use trains where TfL sets the fares.
--
Roland Perry

Turning London orange
 

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 19:50:29 on Fri, 23 Sep 2016, Recliner
remarked:

while the unions are indulging in incessant strikes and sickies on
Southern that

Southern just want their pay cheque. The policy (and the hit on the
fares basket) are down to the DfT.

simply wants to change the role of train guards, with no loss of jobs
or conditions.

--
Roland Perry

Turning London orange
 

On 2016\09\22 06:21, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 03:23:04 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\09\21 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...erent-6143328/


Thanks. Looks like Deptford Park (Surrey Canal Road) is not getting
built at all!

New Bermondsey Shirley ? It seems to be dependant on if/when the
related development gets finished (or even started). This month's
start date seems to be some time next year.
https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/inmyarea...d-answers.aspx


Thanks. I still thinks it's a bad idea... they should build a station
instead where the Surrey Quays - New Cross Gate line crosses Surrey
Canal Road[*], and maybe put platforms on the London Bridge to Deptford
/ New Cross lines as well, and abandon the ELL New Cross branch. This
would improve interchange, and the site would be equidistant from
existing stations instead of around the corner from South Bermondsey.
[*] There are curvature and possibly gradient issues here

Turning London orange
 

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:36:39 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living in a
cave for the last 20 years.

This is ill thought out nonsense. It looks to me like Mr Kahn wants
to leave his mark (fundamentally change London?)

Future authorities will have to sort out the mess. The travelling
public meanwhile will suffer.

Turning London orange
 

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 16:27:37 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:


wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

Exactly, but Mr Kahn might make it happen. And, as you say below:

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast.

Living on the Portsmouth Direct, as one does, this does not bode well.
We need improved frequencies. That could come with the conversion of
Waterloo International and a grade separated junction at Woking. But,
NOT if Mr Kahn is going to take a big chunk of the paths out of
Waterloo for his Metro Service.

Turning London orange
 

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 16:58:58 +0100, "
wrote:

On 22.09.16 16:48, Recliner wrote:
tim... wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places like
Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?


One hopes not. As is, Thameslink is a useful regional service. We
do not need Crossrail style trains with no loos.

Turning London orange
 

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:11:43 -0500,
wrote:

In article , () wrote:

On 22.09.16 16:48, Recliner wrote:
tim... wrote:

wrote in message
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...o-look-very-di
fferent6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official
TfL mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the
south london lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will
give them an easy time because they're a public corp rather than a
TOC has obviously been living in a cave for the last 20 years.

The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just
outside) of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes
which carry main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places
like Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

No, not even Thameslink within Greater London.

Good.

Turning London orange
 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:41:48 +0100, "
wrote:

On 22.09.16 20:00, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 22.09.16 16:48, Recliner wrote:
tim... wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast

I don't think their vision extends that far. TfL wants to take over the
stopping metro routes that run a little outside the zones (to places like
Dartford), not all the way to the coast.

Is there not a plan, however, for the TfL Empire to take over the
Thameslink lime out to Brighton?

Not that I'm aware of, and not according to the news report. Do you have a
link?

No, I thought that I read it on this group. IIRC, it was more of a
long-term plan, rather than anything around the corner.

When the West, North, South, and East London Lines, along with the
Watford DC service transitioned to the London Overground, the change
was so worthwhile.

In the 1960s I first "discovered" the North London line and watched
its painful decline. But, the investment in new infrastructure the
linking up of the North and East London Lines, the improved customer
environment was SO, SO welcome.

And it worked, why not leave it as is. No way can this sort of
investment be afforded for all of London's suburban network, the TOCs
are not doing a bad job for the most part.

Turning London orange
 

On 24/09/2016 09:35, e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 16:27:37 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:


wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services
into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy
time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living
in a
cave for the last 20 years.

--
Spud


The seem to think that they can magic up slots to provide a 10 minute
frequency on every route

Exactly, but Mr Kahn might make it happen. And, as you say below:

whilst this might work on the routes that terminate inside (or just outside)
of the London "Zone", this is not going to work for the routes which carry
main line services to the coast.

Living on the Portsmouth Direct, as one does, this does not bode well.
We need improved frequencies. That could come with the conversion of
Waterloo International and a grade separated junction at Woking. But,
NOT if Mr Kahn is going to take a big chunk of the paths out of
Waterloo for his Metro Service.


Can't see a grade separated junction at Woking happening any time soon.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Turning London orange
 

e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:36:39 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:29:59 +0100
" wrote:
On 21.09.16 21:31, Recliner wrote:
TfL's grand vision for turning London's suburban overground services into
the Overground:


http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/21/london...very-different
6143328/

I got an idea. Let's just turn the entire network, from Penzance to
Wick, orange.

Indeed. Its really not very well thought out if this is an official TfL
mock up. And what the obsession with TfL taking over all the south london
lines is god knows. Anyone who thinks the unions will give them an easy time
because they're a public corp rather than a TOC has obviously been living in a
cave for the last 20 years.

This is ill thought out nonsense. It looks to me like Mr Kahn wants
to leave his mark (fundamentally change London?)

This scheme was started during the previous mayor's tenure. Sadiq is just
continuing with Boris's plan.