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Just curious - does anyone know what form the architecture will take, will it
be like the JLE, crossrail or something completely new? Also I presume the 2 new stations will have platform doors too which I imagine will mean some new kit on the trains - unless its already installed. -- Spud |
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In article , d () wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 04:47:09 -0500 wrote: In article , d () wrote: Just curious - does anyone know what form the architecture will take, will it be like the JLE, crossrail or something completely new? Also I presume the 2 new stations will have platform doors too which I imagine will mean some new kit on the trains - unless its already installed. I doubt that platform doors will be fitted. There might be passive provision but doors on just 2 Northern Line stations doesn't look likely to me. I always thought they were an expensive white elephant that served little purpose but TfL seems to like them - they're going in on crossrail - so I wouldn't put it past them to install just on 2 stations. The safety benefits are considerable and they may well improve dwell times. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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On 2016\10\11 11:30, d wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 04:47:09 -0500 wrote: I doubt that platform doors will be fitted. There might be passive provision but doors on just 2 Northern Line stations doesn't look likely to me. I always thought they were an expensive white elephant that served little purpose but TfL seems to like them - they're going in on crossrail - so I wouldn't put it past them to install just on 2 stations. I'm sure you've been told before that they reduce the need for ventilation shafts and so reduce the cost of a new station. |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 12:05:59 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 06:04:41 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, remarked: I doubt that platform doors will be fitted. There might be passive provision but doors on just 2 Northern Line stations doesn't look likely to me. I always thought they were an expensive white elephant that served little purpose but TfL seems to like them - they're going in on crossrail - so I wouldn't put it past them to install just on 2 stations. The safety benefits are considerable and they may well improve dwell times. Also improved air flow and cooling. Yes, I think those are the normally cited 'official' reasons'. PEDs are deemed essential for driverless trains, but I don't think the Northern line is due to get those for many years. |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 12:43:39 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote: On 2016\10\11 11:30, d wrote: On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 04:47:09 -0500 wrote: I doubt that platform doors will be fitted. There might be passive provision but doors on just 2 Northern Line stations doesn't look likely to me. I always thought they were an expensive white elephant that served little purpose but TfL seems to like them - they're going in on crossrail - so I wouldn't put it past them to install just on 2 stations. I'm sure you've been told before that they reduce the need for ventilation shafts and so reduce the cost of a new station. How would they reduce the need for ventilation shafts? They're not floor to ceiling. |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 11:58:36 +0100
Recliner wrote: On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 08:51:59 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: Just curious - does anyone know what form the architecture will take, will it be like the JLE, crossrail or something completely new? Both stations will be under large new buildings, so they may not have much surface presence. I think the inside design will be similar to Crossrail, as that's the current style. The JLE stations were designed 20 years ago. http://www.estatesgazette.com/blogs/...2015/11/nine-e ms-station-towers-planned/ Ah, the Bland Glass Box style. Oh well, so much for innovation. In 40 years time it'll look as dated and unattractive as 60s tower blocks do today. Assuming the glass hasn't all fallen out by then and been replaced by brick. Also I presume the 2 new stations will have platform doors too which I imagine will mean some new kit on the trains - unless its already installed. I don't think there will be PEDs. But why would the trains need extra kit if PEDs are fitted? I just assumed there needs to be some kit in the train to tell the door mechanism that its arrived and fully stopped. I can't see how you'd get the 2nd part of that accurate enough just by using some sort of passive sensor. -- Spud |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 12:05:59 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 06:04:41 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, remarked: I doubt that platform doors will be fitted. There might be passive provision but doors on just 2 Northern Line stations doesn't look likely to me. I always thought they were an expensive white elephant that served little purpose but TfL seems to like them - they're going in on crossrail - so I wouldn't put it past them to install just on 2 stations. The safety benefits are considerable and they may well improve dwell times. Also improved air flow and cooling. I fail to see how - they're only 7 foot high. If the train was completely sealed off from the platform the sure, but it isn't. Any train heat just wafts up and over. -- Spud |
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In message , at 13:05:03 on Tue, 11 Oct
2016, d remarked: Also improved air flow and cooling. I fail to see how - they're only 7 foot high. If the train was completely sealed off from the platform the sure, but it isn't. Any train heat just wafts up and over. Perhaps you haven't got the same skills as a proper fluid dynamics engineer? btw, I notice your posting host is the same as the ulm forger. Can you explain that? -- Roland Perry |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:11:04 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:05:03 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, d remarked: Also improved air flow and cooling. I fail to see how - they're only 7 foot high. If the train was completely sealed off from the platform the sure, but it isn't. Any train heat just wafts up and over. Perhaps you haven't got the same skills as a proper fluid dynamics engineer? Unless those engineers have managed to change the laws of physics so hot air no longer rises I can't see any mechanism for it to make any significant difference. What it does do however is prevent the brief cooling breeze you get just before a train is about to pull in so in that sense its worse. btw, I notice your posting host is the same as the ulm forger. Can you explain that? No idea what forger you're talking about but if you'd spent 30 seconds in google you'd have discovered that aioe.org is a free service that doesn't require an account so hardly surprising it gets used for that. -- Spud |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:13:00 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:02:39 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, d remarked: I don't think there will be PEDs. But why would the trains need extra kit if PEDs are fitted? I just assumed there needs to be some kit in the train to tell the door mechanism that its arrived and fully stopped. I can't see how you'd get the 2nd part of that accurate enough just by using some sort of passive sensor. If the teething troubles they had with the JLE were correctly reported, most of the PED-synching is down to the driver's skills, rather than technology. Its ATO. However there still needs to be something to tell the platform doors to open when the train doors open and I assume its some bit of NFC kit on the train. -- Spud |
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wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:13:00 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:02:39 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, d remarked: I don't think there will be PEDs. But why would the trains need extra kit if PEDs are fitted? I just assumed there needs to be some kit in the train to tell the door mechanism that its arrived and fully stopped. I can't see how you'd get the 2nd part of that accurate enough just by using some sort of passive sensor. If the teething troubles they had with the JLE were correctly reported, most of the PED-synching is down to the driver's skills, rather than technology. Its ATO. However there still needs to be something to tell the platform doors to open when the train doors open and I assume its some bit of NFC kit on the train. The Jubilee is ATO now, but wasn't when the JLE opened. I think the PEDs are operated by the signalling system. |
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Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:43:15 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, d remarked: If the teething troubles they had with the JLE were correctly reported, most of the PED-synching is down to the driver's skills, rather than technology. Its ATO. What is, JLE or the Battersea extension? Both now, but not the Jubilee when the JLE with its PEDs first opened. However there still needs to be something to tell the platform doors to open when the train doors open and I assume its some bit of NFC kit on the train. If ATO doesn't know where the train is, just as well as that sort of NFC device, I'm astonished. I think it's the signalling that operates the doors, and of course it knows exactly where the train is. But I'm not sure how it knows to close the PEDs. |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:53:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:40:36 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, d remarked: Also improved air flow and cooling. I fail to see how - they're only 7 foot high. If the train was completely sealed off from the platform the sure, but it isn't. Any train heat just wafts up and over. Perhaps you haven't got the same skills as a proper fluid dynamics engineer? Unless those engineers have managed to change the laws of physics so hot air no longer rises I can't see any mechanism QED. Ok, so how do they stop the hot air entering the station? Do explain, I'd love to hear how its done without any physical barrier. Have TfL invented a force field? No idea what forger you're talking about but if you'd spent 30 seconds in google you'd have discovered that aioe.org is a free service that doesn't require an account so hardly surprising it gets used for that. It's the @gioia. part I'm interested in. Is that user-specific, or do all aioe.org users get the same hostname? You think every user who posts on this site gets a unique host to themselves? Do you actually know how NNTP works? (Genuine question, and as you are apparently good at research I'm sure you can easily produce a covincing cite). I don't need to produce anything pal. If you don't understand usenet thats not my problem. -- Spud |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:13:49 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:43:15 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, d remarked: If the teething troubles they had with the JLE were correctly reported, most of the PED-synching is down to the driver's skills, rather than technology. Its ATO. What is, JLE or the Battersea extension? Both now, but not the Jubilee when the JLE with its PEDs first opened. However there still needs to be something to tell the platform doors to open when the train doors open and I assume its some bit of NFC kit on the train. If ATO doesn't know where the train is, just as well as that sort of NFC device, I'm astonished. I think it's the signalling that operates the doors, and of course it knows exactly where the train is. But I'm not sure how it knows to close the PEDs. Or open them given that its still down to the driver to press the open button AFAIK. I doubt a signal is sent all the way to the main signalling control system then all the way back to the doors to tell them to open because if the train is being driven in emergency manual mode because of an ATO failure then those platform doors won't be opening anytime soon. -- Spud |
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wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:13:49 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:43:15 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, d remarked: If the teething troubles they had with the JLE were correctly reported, most of the PED-synching is down to the driver's skills, rather than technology. Its ATO. What is, JLE or the Battersea extension? Both now, but not the Jubilee when the JLE with its PEDs first opened. However there still needs to be something to tell the platform doors to open when the train doors open and I assume its some bit of NFC kit on the train. If ATO doesn't know where the train is, just as well as that sort of NFC device, I'm astonished. I think it's the signalling that operates the doors, and of course it knows exactly where the train is. But I'm not sure how it knows to close the PEDs. Or open them given that its still down to the driver to press the open button AFAIK. I doubt a signal is sent all the way to the main signalling control system then all the way back to the doors to tell them to open because if the train is being driven in emergency manual mode because of an ATO failure then those platform doors won't be opening anytime soon. Presumably the signalling system knows the train has stopped in the right place to open the doors. Perhaps the on-board ATO also tells the signalling system if the doors are open/closed, while the signalling controls whether the doors can open? There's presumably a manual override for emergencies. |
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On Tuesday, 11 October 2016 11:30:38 UTC+1, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 04:47:09 -0500 wrote: In article , d () wrote: Just curious - does anyone know what form the architecture will take, will it be like the JLE, crossrail or something completely new? Also I presume the 2 new stations will have platform doors too which I imagine will mean some new kit on the trains - unless its already installed. I doubt that platform doors will be fitted. There might be passive provision but doors on just 2 Northern Line stations doesn't look likely to me. I always thought they were an expensive white elephant that served little purpose but TfL seems to like them - they're going in on crossrail - so I wouldn't put it past them to install just on 2 stations. I don't know how useful they are, either. They do keep the track very clean. The track at London Bridge looks almost like new. |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 17:02:08 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:52:31 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, d remarked: It's the @gioia. part I'm interested in. Is that user-specific, or do all aioe.org users get the same hostname? You think every user who posts on this site gets a unique host to themselves? That's what I'm asking, numbskull. Yes, all the thousands of users who use aioe get a server to themselves! For free! I don't need to produce anything pal. If you don't understand usenet thats not my problem. And you don't apparently understand NNTP posting hostnames. Uh huh. If you'd bothered to do a lookup you'd have realised gioia.aioe.org isn't even a valid DNS address, presumably gioia is either an internal server name or just some ident they use. But what would a numbskull know eh? Why don't you try posting from the site yourself and see what pops up. Since you're such an expert on NNTP you don't need to reconfigure your client, you can do it just using telnet. -- Spud |
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In message , at 08:43:44 on Wed, 12 Oct
2016, d remarked: On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 17:02:08 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:52:31 on Tue, 11 Oct 2016, d remarked: It's the @gioia. part I'm interested in. Is that user-specific, or do all aioe.org users get the same hostname? You think every user who posts on this site gets a unique host to themselves? That's what I'm asking, numbskull. Yes, all the thousands of users who use aioe get a server to themselves! For free! It'd be a virtual server, obviously. I don't need to produce anything pal. If you don't understand usenet thats not my problem. And you don't apparently understand NNTP posting hostnames. Uh huh. If you'd bothered to do a lookup you'd have realised gioia.aioe.org isn't even a valid DNS address, presumably gioia is either an internal server name or just some ident they use. Hosts don't have to be globally reachable, and none of this hostname stuff is unique to nntp. Anyway, looking closer at your headers the posting-hostname is random looking string.user.gioia.aioe.org But what would a numbskull know eh? The difference between a server and a virtual server? Why don't you try posting from the site yourself and see what pops up. Since you're such an expert on NNTP you don't need to reconfigure your client, you can do it just using telnet. Why reinvent the wheel when I can ask ? -- Roland Perry |
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On Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:08:22 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:43:44 on Wed, 12 Oct Yes, all the thousands of users who use aioe get a server to themselves! For free! It'd be a virtual server, obviously. Ah, mais oui! Everytime someone posts something they start up an entire VM + NNTP server just to make sure the posting host field is different. Why didn't I think of that?? Anyway, looking closer at your headers the posting-hostname is random looking string.user.gioia.aioe.org Fascinating. But what would a numbskull know eh? The difference between a server and a virtual server? You're right, I have no idea. When I was a sys admin I just used to wing it. Why don't you try posting from the site yourself and see what pops up. Since you're such an expert on NNTP you don't need to reconfigure your client, you can do it just using telnet. Why reinvent the wheel when I can ask ? Why do you assume I am conversant with the operational setup of a free news service based in the netherlands? Interestingly through your domain name I've just found out your wifes name, your home address and what car you drive. Thats not a clever thing to allow these days. -- Spud |
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"Offramp" wrote in message ... On Tuesday, 11 October 2016 11:30:38 UTC+1, wrote: On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 04:47:09 -0500 wrote: In article , d () wrote: Just curious - does anyone know what form the architecture will take, will it be like the JLE, crossrail or something completely new? Also I presume the 2 new stations will have platform doors too which I imagine will mean some new kit on the trains - unless its already installed. I doubt that platform doors will be fitted. There might be passive provision but doors on just 2 Northern Line stations doesn't look likely to me. I always thought they were an expensive white elephant that served little purpose but TfL seems to like them - they're going in on crossrail - so I wouldn't put it past them to install just on 2 stations. I don't know how useful they are, either. They do keep the track very clean. The track at London Bridge looks almost like new. That'll be because, in railway terms, it is :-) |
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On Wed, 12 Oct 2016 13:32:01 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:11:55 on Wed, 12 Oct You're right, I have no idea. .... I expect we can at least agree it's not a physical server. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. Who cares. I'm wondering if you know the difference between a server program and a server, virtual or physical. Why do you assume I am conversant with the operational setup of a free news service based in the netherlands? By examining their headers. I don't give a ****, you're the one who's bothered about it. Interestingly through your domain name I've just found out your wifes name, your home address and what car you drive. Blue Saab? No not any more. Indeed not. ITYF streetview has been updated recently. Thats not a clever thing to allow these days. Don't be too quick to admit to stalking me. In any event with the same Don't flatter yourself. If you put your home address in a public repository that can be accessed by anyone with half a clue then more fool you. Anyone with any sense registers their domain at their accountants address or failing that a P.O Box. -- Spud |
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In message , at 12:20:03 on Wed, 12 Oct
2016, Basil Jet remarked: Just curious - does anyone know what form the architecture will take, will it be like the JLE, crossrail or something completely new? Also I presume the 2 new stations will have platform doors too which I imagine will mean some new kit on the trains - unless its already installed. Just a thought... one of the Northern platforms at London Bridge is as new as the Jubilee extension but doesn't have PEDs. Although perhaps that is because the existing tunnels could be used for ventilation, so adding PEDs would not have saved anything. The ventilation there is partly via the old C&SLR tunnels, but also the original lift shaft. I've always wondered if that has survived the recent large amount of rebuilding at ground level (it's outside the footprint of the NR station). -- Roland Perry |
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On Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:15:12 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: I don't give a ****, you're the one who's bothered about it. If you are expert as you claim, one glance would tell all. Really? Well in that case why did you bother to ask in the first place? Make your mind up. Indeed not. ITYF streetview has been updated recently. I can see why you think that. Yes, its not a blue saab is it. Don't flatter yourself. If you put your home address in a public repository that can be accessed by anyone with half a clue then more fool you. Anyone with any sense registers their domain at their accountants address or failing that a P.O Box. I think you misspelt "anyone with something to hide..." One minute you're paranoid about stalking then you're claiming this. Nutters don't care if you have something to hide or not. Just saying... -- Spud |
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In article ,
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 12:20:03 on Wed, 12 Oct 2016, Basil Jet remarked: Just curious - does anyone know what form the architecture will take, will it be like the JLE, crossrail or something completely new? Also I presume the 2 new stations will have platform doors too which I imagine will mean some new kit on the trains - unless its already installed. Just a thought... one of the Northern platforms at London Bridge is as new as the Jubilee extension but doesn't have PEDs. Although perhaps that is because the existing tunnels could be used for ventilation, so adding PEDs would not have saved anything. The ventilation there is partly via the old C&SLR tunnels, but also the original lift shaft. I've always wondered if that has survived the recent large amount of rebuilding at ground level (it's outside the footprint of the NR station). The old CSLR station building was demolished within the last few years :( However there is now a small free-standing steel rotunda composed of ventilation grills, as near as I can tell exactly above the lift shaft (corner of London Bridge Street and the former Railway Approach, immediately adjacent to the new viaduct span at Borough Market). Nick -- "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
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In message , at 14:48:00 on Wed, 12 Oct 2016,
Nick Leverton remarked: Just a thought... one of the Northern platforms at London Bridge is as new as the Jubilee extension but doesn't have PEDs. Although perhaps that is because the existing tunnels could be used for ventilation, so adding PEDs would not have saved anything. The ventilation there is partly via the old C&SLR tunnels, but also the original lift shaft. I've always wondered if that has survived the recent large amount of rebuilding at ground level (it's outside the footprint of the NR station). The old CSLR station building was demolished within the last few years :( However there is now a small free-standing steel rotunda composed of ventilation grills, as near as I can tell exactly above the lift shaft (corner of London Bridge Street and the former Railway Approach, immediately adjacent to the new viaduct span at Borough Market). Ah-ha! and it's got doors too :-) That probably means you can still go down the staircase inside, to the platforms (it comes out in one of the passages about 2/3 way from the bottom of the main escalators to the platforms). It could even be an emergency exit from the station. https://goo.gl/maps/24eu1giEQFr Also associated with Site No 6 on this plan of the wartime air-raid shelters: http://www.perry.co.uk/maps/london_b...shelters_1.tif -- Roland Perry |
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In article ,
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:48:00 on Wed, 12 Oct 2016, Nick Leverton remarked: [Roland wrote:] The ventilation there is partly via the old C&SLR tunnels, but also the original lift shaft. I've always wondered if that has survived the recent large amount of rebuilding at ground level (it's outside the footprint of the NR station). The old CSLR station building was demolished within the last few years :( However there is now a small free-standing steel rotunda composed of ventilation grills, as near as I can tell exactly above the lift shaft (corner of London Bridge Street and the former Railway Approach, immediately adjacent to the new viaduct span at Borough Market). Ah-ha! and it's got doors too :-) That probably means you can still go down the staircase inside, to the platforms (it comes out in one of the passages about 2/3 way from the bottom of the main escalators to the platforms). It could even be an emergency exit from the station. https://goo.gl/maps/24eu1giEQFr Also associated with Site No 6 on this plan of the wartime air-raid shelters: http://www.perry.co.uk/maps/london_b...shelters_1.tif Yes, the ARP shelter entrance No.6 was apparently adjacent to 9, London Bridge Street, but was demolished and capped with concrete during the 1960s redevelopment of that plot. The associated foot tunnel was retained for access to the CSLR tunnels via new connecting shafts (the tunnel rings for these works are dated 1968). But after 25 years, I don't remember exactly how the various old and new works join up. I've been looking without success for any plan that might show all the passages, not just the old tunnels. ISTR the 1960s access steps came up inside the CSLR booking office, rather than using the lift shaft itself. http://www.leverton.org/tunnels/cslr/csl3.jpg is taken from the bottom of the lift shaft and shows the new steps ascending some yards away, up to the left. Open to correction on the above as always, and it would indeed be very interesting to know whether and how this has been retained. Nick -- "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
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"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 12:48:38 on Wed, 12 Oct Don't flatter yourself. If you put your home address in a public repository that can be accessed by anyone with half a clue then more fool you. Anyone with any sense registers their domain at their accountants address or failing that a P.O Box. I think you misspelt "anyone with something to hide..." I think that's unfair especially from a person who spends his spare time discussing the minutiae of Stalker Protection legislation with government tim |
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:43:46 +0100
"tim..." wrote: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 12:48:38 on Wed, 12 Oct Don't flatter yourself. If you put your home address in a public repository that can be accessed by anyone with half a clue then more fool you. Anyone with any sense registers their domain at their accountants address or failing that a P.O Box. I think you misspelt "anyone with something to hide..." I think that's unfair especially from a person who spends his spare time discussing the minutiae of Stalker Protection legislation with government I don't think he really gets irony. -- Spud |
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