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Croydon tram overturned
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37919658
At a rough guess I'd say it went around a curve way too fast. -- Spud |
Croydon tram overturned
On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 12:14:43 +0000, Richard J. wrote:
d wrote on 09 Nov 2016 at 10:20 ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37919658 At a rough guess I'd say it went around a curve way too fast. BBC now saying there has been "some loss of life". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37919658 "Croydon tram derailment: Driver arrested after crash leaves 'up to eight dead' and over 50 in hospital" says the Evening Standard http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trans...-a3391446.html The Guardian are quoting a TfL source as saying "the incident happened inside a tunnel" - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ped-40-injured |
Croydon tram overturned
On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 12:14:43 +0000
"Richard J." wrote: wrote on 09 Nov 2016 at 10:20 ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37919658 At a rough guess I'd say it went around a curve way too fast. BBC now saying there has been "some loss of life". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37919658 Yeah :( "The cause of the crash is unclear." I would say its pretty clear looking at the picture. Detailed going around a curve or the a set of points too fast. The fact they've nicked the driver I suspect means they're thinking the same thing. Or he's failed a breath test. -- Spud |
Croydon tram overturned
In message , at 13:25:24 on
Wed, 9 Nov 2016, David Walters remarked: The Guardian are quoting a TfL source as saying "the incident happened inside a tunnel" - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ped-40-injured Which suggests it was running north towards Sandilands Station and something had happened inside the tunnel. Frustrating that there's no definite reporting of its direction. -- Roland Perry |
Croydon tram overturned
In message , at 13:56:48 on Wed, 9 Nov
2016, Roland Perry remarked: The Guardian are quoting a TfL source as saying "the incident happened inside a tunnel" - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ped-40-injured Which suggests it was running north towards Sandilands Station and something had happened inside the tunnel. Frustrating that there's no definite reporting of its direction. Daily Mail now reporting: 'It happened on a sharp bend on the approach to Sandilands tram stop.' Which is consistent with another comment: 'As we looked down on the tram it was on its right hand side' -- Roland Perry |
Croydon tram overturned
On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 2:28:55 PM UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:56:48 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, Roland Perry remarked: The Guardian are quoting a TfL source as saying "the incident happened inside a tunnel" - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ped-40-injured Which suggests it was running north towards Sandilands Station and something had happened inside the tunnel. Frustrating that there's no definite reporting of its direction. Daily Mail now reporting: 'It happened on a sharp bend on the approach to Sandilands tram stop.' Which is consistent with another comment: 'As we looked down on the tram it was on its right hand side' -- Roland Perry From Sandilands the track descends steeply and splits in two, where it joins the route of the former Woodside and South Croydon Railway. By the look of the overhead shot, it was possibly taking the righthand track and came off. Or was it coming the other way and took the corner too fast? If it wasn't human error, then perhaps brake failure? I'm not familiar with braking systems on that system. Neill |
Croydon tram overturned
On 09.11.16 15:57, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 2:28:55 PM UTC, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:56:48 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, Roland Perry remarked: The Guardian are quoting a TfL source as saying "the incident happened inside a tunnel" - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ped-40-injured Which suggests it was running north towards Sandilands Station and something had happened inside the tunnel. Frustrating that there's no definite reporting of its direction. Daily Mail now reporting: 'It happened on a sharp bend on the approach to Sandilands tram stop.' Which is consistent with another comment: 'As we looked down on the tram it was on its right hand side' -- Roland Perry From Sandilands the track descends steeply and splits in two, where it joins the route of the former Woodside and South Croydon Railway. By the look of the overhead shot, it was possibly taking the righthand track and came off. Or was it coming the other way and took the corner too fast? If it wasn't human error, then perhaps brake failure? I'm not familiar with braking systems on that system. Neill Electric, combined with electromagnetic, AFAIK. |
Croydon tram overturned
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Croydon tram overturned
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... The fog of war continues to waft across the scene. -- Roland Perry From RAIBC: "The tram was operating an 'inbound' service from New Addington to Wimbledon via Croydon town centre. Sandilands Junction is the point where inbound trams from the Beckenham Junction/Elmers End and New Addington routes converge, shortly before they arrive at Sandilands tram stop (to the east of Croydon town centre). Trams approaching from the New Addington direction have to negotiate a sharp, left-hand curve with a speed limit of 20 km/h (12 mph) before reaching the junction. The derailment occurred on the curve and initial indications suggest that the tram was travelling at a significantly higher speed than is permitted." PA |
Croydon tram overturned
On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 4:37:22 PM UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 07:57:51 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, remarked: Daily Mail now reporting: 'It happened on a sharp bend on the approach to Sandilands tram stop..' Which is consistent with another comment: 'As we looked down on the tram it was on its right hand side' From Sandilands the track descends steeply Which isn't "approching Sandilands" and splits in two, where it joins the route of the former Woodside and South Croydon Railway. By the look of the overhead shot, it was possibly taking the righthand track and came off. Which would leave it rolled over on its *left* side. The fog of war continues to waft across the scene. -- Roland Perry It seems to have come to rest inside the overhead line support for the righthand track, but on it's righthand side. Given that if it was going left, it would have been on the lefthand side and going right would have needed to traverse the points of what looks like a single slip at the junction, it must have derailed either at the points or been going too fast. Another possibility is it could have been coming the other way, from the lefthand track, derailed at the points and slid back down the slope, overturning when it hit the split in the track direction. Can't see that one myself though. Neill |
Croydon tram overturned
On 09-Nov-16 2:19 PM, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:56:48 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, Roland Perry remarked: The Guardian are quoting a TfL source as saying "the incident happened inside a tunnel" - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ped-40-injured Which suggests it was running north towards Sandilands Station and something had happened inside the tunnel. Frustrating that there's no definite reporting of its direction. Daily Mail now reporting: 'It happened on a sharp bend on the approach to Sandilands tram stop.' Which is consistent with another comment: 'As we looked down on the tram it was on its right hand side' You can see the line on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhuogCAh6Pg about 14 minutes in. From the other direction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAEOpIxckl8 About 32 minutes in. Almost certain speed, driver or leaf fall? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
Croydon tram overturned
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Croydon tram overturned
On 09.11.16 18:16, Tony Dragon wrote:
On 09-Nov-16 2:19 PM, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:56:48 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, Roland Perry remarked: The Guardian are quoting a TfL source as saying "the incident happened inside a tunnel" - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ped-40-injured Which suggests it was running north towards Sandilands Station and something had happened inside the tunnel. Frustrating that there's no definite reporting of its direction. Daily Mail now reporting: 'It happened on a sharp bend on the approach to Sandilands tram stop.' Which is consistent with another comment: 'As we looked down on the tram it was on its right hand side' You can see the line on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhuogCAh6Pg about 14 minutes in. From the other direction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAEOpIxckl8 About 32 minutes in. Almost certain speed, driver or leaf fall? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. |
Croydon tram overturned
In message , at 18:55:42 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016,
" remarked: Almost certain speed, RAIB have dropped a huge hint about that. driver or leaf fall? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. TPWS-for-trams, anyone? -- Roland Perry |
Croydon tram overturned
On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 7:10:56 PM UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:55:42 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, " remarked: Almost certain speed, RAIB have dropped a huge hint about that. driver or leaf fall? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. TPWS-for-trams, anyone? -- Roland Perry The latest from the BBC is that it was a Wimbledon-bound train that derailed after taking a 12mph corner too fast. Explains why the driver has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. They are also investigating if he was asleep. Apparently trams aren't fitted with devices to apply the brakes if travelling too fast. Neill |
Croydon tram overturned
On 2016-11-09 18:17:03 +0000, Basil Jet said:
If the driver's asleep, there aren't any. Trams are essentially road vehicles that happen to run on rails - safety standards are by and large similar. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Croydon tram overturned
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:53:30 +0000
" wrote: On 09.11.16 19:03, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 18:55:42 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, " remarked: Almost certain speed, RAIB have dropped a huge hint about that. driver or leaf fall? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. TPWS-for-trams, anyone? Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, under the circumstances. I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like croydon that are essentially railways in all but name. -- Spud |
Croydon tram overturned
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Croydon tram overturned
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:54:07 +0000
Neil Williams wrote: On 2016-11-10 13:51:45 +0000, d said: I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like croydon that are essentially railways in all but name. Quite the opposite - Metrolink, for example, despite being very much a "railway in all but name" on some sections, is in the process of (or may have completed) converting to operate under tramway regulations, i.e. drive on sight. So legally more like an electric bus that happens to have rails. That sounds like a retrograde step to me. Unlike a bus a train can't swerve out of the way if there's an obstruction ahead the driver missed and as we have seen, toppling over on a curve is a possibly. A bus would just skid. Where are Health and Safety when they're actually needed? -- Spud |
Croydon tram overturned
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:01:39 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:51:45 on Thu, 10 Nov 2016, d remarked: Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. TPWS-for-trams, anyone? Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, under the circumstances. I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like croydon that are essentially railways in all but name. Will these unfortunate deaths be included in the otherwise minimal stats for "UK Rail Passenger Fatalities"? Good question. -- Spud |
Croydon tram overturned
Roland Perry wrote on 10 Nov 2016 at 14:01 ...
In message , at 13:51:45 on Thu, 10 Nov 2016, d remarked: Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. TPWS-for-trams, anyone? Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, under the circumstances. I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like croydon that are essentially railways in all but name. Will these unfortunate deaths be included in the otherwise minimal stats for "UK Rail Passenger Fatalities"? Yes, the ORR classify them as "non-mainline", covering "heritage railways, tramways, light rail and metro systems". These are the first deaths of passengers being carried on a rail vehicle in Great Britain in an accident since Grayrigg in 2007. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Croydon tram overturned
In message , at 17:00:22 on Thu, 10 Nov
2016, d remarked: Unlike a bus a train can't swerve out of the way if there's an obstruction ahead Vague memories of Greyrigg here. -- Roland Perry |
Croydon tram overturned
In article , d () wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:53:30 +0000 " wrote: On 09.11.16 19:03, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 18:55:42 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, " remarked: Almost certain speed, RAIB have dropped a huge hint about that. driver or leaf fall? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. TPWS-for-trams, anyone? Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, under the circumstances. I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like croydon that are essentially railways in all but name. I think the only system where you might be right is Manchester Metrolink which has both railway signalled and drive-on-sight sections, with different controller settings for each. Most trams in this country are driven like buses. The only real difference is separate traffic signals which only apply to trams (white lights). I can see a case for railway signals on the off-road sections of Tramlink which would cover the section south of the crash site to Sandilands tram stop. That might include overspeed protection like TPWS. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Croydon tram overturned
On 10/11/2016 17:00, d wrote:
That sounds like a retrograde step to me. Unlike a bus a train can't swerve out of the way if there's an obstruction ahead the driver missed and as we have seen, toppling over on a curve is a possibly. A bus would just skid. Although buses can go through red lights and crash into trams, killing a bus passenger: "Andrzej Karcz, 28, was decapitated after being thrown from the front window of the bus when bus driver Raouf Mraidi, 29, ran a red light and slammed into a tram. [...] The collision, in September 2008, sent the 468 bus careering down George Street, smashing into shop fronts before it finally came to a halt when it crashed into a parked BMW." http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/n...m_crash_death/ The bus driver did a runner, but was extradited back to Britain: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-10672343 -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Croydon tram overturned
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Croydon tram overturned
In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote: Roland Perry wrote on 10 Nov 2016 at 14:01 ... In message , at 13:51:45 on Thu, 10 Nov 2016, d remarked: Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. TPWS-for-trams, anyone? Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, under the circumstances. I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like croydon that are essentially railways in all but name. Will these unfortunate deaths be included in the otherwise minimal stats for "UK Rail Passenger Fatalities"? Yes, the ORR classify them as "non-mainline", covering "heritage railways, tramways, light rail and metro systems". These are the first deaths of passengers being carried on a rail vehicle in Great Britain in an accident since Grayrigg in 2007. And the last time as many as 7 were killed is even longer ago. :-( -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Croydon tram overturned
wrote in message ... On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 7:10:56 PM UTC, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 18:55:42 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, " remarked: Almost certain speed, RAIB have dropped a huge hint about that. driver or leaf fall? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. TPWS-for-trams, anyone? -- Roland Perry The latest from the BBC is that it was a Wimbledon-bound train that derailed after taking a 12mph corner too fast. Explains why the driver has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. They are also investigating if he was asleep. Apparently trams aren't fitted with devices to apply the brakes if travelling too fast. but, according to the BBC, they are fitted with devices that apply the brakes if the driver falls asleep Ever stranger and stranger tim |
Croydon tram overturned
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 17:38:20 +0000
Neil Williams wrote: On 2016-11-10 17:00:22 +0000, d said: That sounds like a retrograde step to me. Unlike a bus a train can't swerve out of the way if there's an obstruction ahead the driver missed and as we have seen, toppling over on a curve is a possibly. A bus would just skid. Buses can and do topple if driven too fast round corners. National Express gave up double-decker operation for years when this happened to one of theirs. Yes, fair point. But in general a bus is more likely to skid than topple. Didn't LT make a point of showing videos of old routemasters that would never topple over no matter what idiotic moves a bus driver did with them? Admittedly it was on a skid pan so there were no curbs or other obstacles for the wheels to get caught on, but even so. -- Spud |
Croydon tram overturned
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 21:26:01 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote: At his forum David Icke reckons that this tram crash, like all rail and bus= crashes, was a hoax. See https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=3D29= 9862&page=3D17 David Icke is usually for entertainment value only , but this is just hideously disrespectful to the people who died and were hurt. I know the man is borderline mentally ill, but I can't help thinking he should lose a few teeth over this one. -- Spud |
Croydon tram overturned
In message , at
21:26:01 on Thu, 10 Nov 2016, Offramp remarked: Finally, can someone explain how someone might be "beheaded" when a tram tips over That's fairly easy. Their head gets thrown through a window as that side of the tram is sliding sideways, and gets cut off as it slides over one of the rails. As for the hoax theory, what about the staff and other patients at the hospital, were they all under NDA too? -- Roland Perry |
Croydon tram overturned
In message , at 09:25:58 on Fri, 11 Nov
2016, d remarked: David Icke is usually for entertainment value only , but this is just hideously disrespectful to the people who died and were hurt. I know the man is borderline mentally ill, but I can't help thinking he should lose a few teeth over this one. Incitement to violence. That's illegal. -- Roland Perry |
Croydon tram overturned
On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:25:58 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 21:26:01 -0800 (PST) Offramp wrote: At his forum David Icke reckons that this tram crash, like all rail and bus= crashes, was a hoax. See https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=3D29= 9862&page=3D17 David Icke is usually for entertainment value only , but this is just hideously disrespectful to the people who died and were hurt. I know the man is borderline mentally ill, but I can't help thinking he should lose a few teeth over this one. I recall a film may years ago where mysterious glass objects were found at the sites of major disasters e.g. plane crashes. These were thought to be alien in origin and everyone thought the earth was under attack. The perpetrators turned out to be people profiting from the scare, they did not cause the disasters but just got someone to plant a glass ball at a disaster site. |
Croydon tram overturned
On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:07:22 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:25:58 on Fri, 11 Nov 2016, d remarked: David Icke is usually for entertainment value only , but this is just hideously disrespectful to the people who died and were hurt. I know the man is borderline mentally ill, but I can't help thinking he should lose a few teeth over this one. Incitement to violence. That's illegal. Yup. Hate crime. |
Croydon tram overturned
On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:05:51 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 21:26:01 on Thu, 10 Nov 2016, Offramp remarked: Finally, can someone explain how someone might be "beheaded" when a tram tips over That's fairly easy. Their head gets thrown through a window as that side of the tram is sliding sideways, and gets cut off as it slides over one of the rails. As for the hoax theory, what about the staff and other patients at the hospital, were they all under NDA too? If you question the varacity of the conspiracy theory you're obviously in on the conspiracy! Or at least thats how these paranoids think. -- Spud |
Croydon tram overturned
On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:07:22 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 09:25:58 on Fri, 11 Nov 2016, d remarked: David Icke is usually for entertainment value only , but this is just hideously disrespectful to the people who died and were hurt. I know the man is borderline mentally ill, but I can't help thinking he should lose a few teeth over this one. Incitement to violence. That's illegal. I meant at the dentists obviously. Seriously, the guy is a utter **** for saying this and I wouldn't lose any sleep if he got duffed up over it. Won't happen of course but one can hope. -- Spud |
Croydon tram overturned
On Wednesday, 9 November 2016 18:17:04 UTC, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\11\09 15:57, wrote: I'm not familiar with braking systems on that system. If the driver's asleep, there aren't any. Maybe he wasn't asleep but listening to the news and fainted when he heard the American election results...? |
Croydon tram overturned
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Croydon tram overturned
In message , at 10:44:34 on
Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Optimist remarked: David Icke is usually for entertainment value only , but this is just hideously disrespectful to the people who died and were hurt. I know the man is borderline mentally ill, but I can't help thinking he should lose a few teeth over this one. Incitement to violence. That's illegal. Yup. Hate crime. Hate crime is a big and fuzzy umbrella. Incitement to violence is a nice concise offence. -- Roland Perry |
Croydon tram overturned
On 11.11.16 8:48, tim... wrote:
wrote in message ... On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 7:10:56 PM UTC, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 18:55:42 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016, " remarked: Almost certain speed, RAIB have dropped a huge hint about that. driver or leaf fall? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line. TPWS-for-trams, anyone? -- Roland Perry The latest from the BBC is that it was a Wimbledon-bound train that derailed after taking a 12mph corner too fast. Explains why the driver has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. They are also investigating if he was asleep. Apparently trams aren't fitted with devices to apply the brakes if travelling too fast. but, according to the BBC, they are fitted with devices that apply the brakes if the driver falls asleep Ever stranger and stranger tim Not dissimilar to the incident in Hoboken, in one sense. |
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