RIP Boris Bus
 

In message , at 13:09:52 on
Fri, 13 Jan 2017, Richard remarked:
My employer, like Uber, considers itself to be new tech and considers
itself to be doing engineering. I don't like all that, as I haven't
noticed us building any bridges or tunnels recently, but it is perhaps
a matter of style and opinion - just not mine!

That's Civil Engineering, as in the famous quote: "There are Good
engineers, Bad engineers and Civil engineers".
--
Roland Perry

RIP Boris Bus
 

"Richard" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 12:51:49 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:51:29 on Fri, 13 Jan
2017,
tim... remarked:
Uber would be disappointed (they call themselves a tech firm).

but they ain't an engineering firm, they are an internet(ish) firm

Hmm, no such thing as software engineering, eh?#

well of course

but that doesn't make their product an "engineering" product, does it

Uber claims their platform is.

like they claim that they are Newtech company and not a transport
operator

a claim that the courts struck done at first instance

Did they buy their taxi-booking application at PC World, or was there
quite a lot of in-house programing to do?

For the FINAL time

it's an INTERNET based program not an engineering product based program

My employer, like Uber, considers itself to be new tech and considers
itself to be doing engineering. I don't like all that, as I haven't
noticed us building any bridges or tunnels recently, but it is perhaps
a matter of style and opinion - just not mine!

We do at least do all our own software, as I suppose does Uber, so we
need a word for that, it just isn't "engineering" to me. Perhaps we
should use it in the American English term for a train driver - one
who spends all day fiddling with a engine?

I appreciate that the terminology is ambiguous and the term software
engineering has been hijacked away from its original meaning.

but Roland understands the difference, he worked with embedded software for
consumer products for the first 10-15 years of his career

it annoys me immensely that he is pretending not to understand my point

tim

RIP Boris Bus
 

On 13.01.2017 4:33 PM, tim... wrote:


"Richard" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 12:51:49 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:51:29 on Fri, 13 Jan
2017,
tim... remarked:
Uber would be disappointed (they call themselves a tech firm).

but they ain't an engineering firm, they are an internet(ish) firm

Hmm, no such thing as software engineering, eh?#

well of course

but that doesn't make their product an "engineering" product, does it

Uber claims their platform is.

like they claim that they are Newtech company and not a transport
operator

a claim that the courts struck done at first instance

Did they buy their taxi-booking application at PC World, or was there
quite a lot of in-house programing to do?

For the FINAL time

it's an INTERNET based program not an engineering product based program

My employer, like Uber, considers itself to be new tech and considers
itself to be doing engineering. I don't like all that, as I haven't
noticed us building any bridges or tunnels recently, but it is perhaps
a matter of style and opinion - just not mine!

We do at least do all our own software, as I suppose does Uber, so we
need a word for that, it just isn't "engineering" to me. Perhaps we
should use it in the American English term for a train driver - one
who spends all day fiddling with a engine?

I appreciate that the terminology is ambiguous and the term software
engineering has been hijacked away from its original meaning.

but Roland understands the difference, he worked with embedded software for
consumer products for the first 10-15 years of his career

it annoys me immensely that he is pretending not to understand my point

The 'engineering' in Software Engineering has never meant "fiddles with TTL"
however much you might think that gives you some kudos. It means "applying
robust principles of engineering practice to the field of computing to
produce practical and reliable solutions" (as opposed to fiddling with TTL
for the purely academic pleasure of finding out what it does, which would
be more CompSci.)


(Speaking as someone who spent many happy years as an embedded software
engineer fiddling with TTL using microcontrollers, but who as CTO of an
Internet SaaS business also very much employs software engineers - just
because it's on the internet doesn't mean it isn't well engineered. Indeed
I'd say the pressure to ensure it is is even greater in the SaaS or PaaS
world - when you carry the can not just for the delivery of the product but
the operation of it and can't blame the customer for failures, it rather
concentrates the mind.)

RIP Boris Bus
 

"Clank" wrote in message
...
On 13.01.2017 4:33 PM, tim... wrote:


"Richard" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 12:51:49 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:51:29 on Fri, 13 Jan
2017,
tim... remarked:
Uber would be disappointed (they call themselves a tech firm).

but they ain't an engineering firm, they are an internet(ish) firm

Hmm, no such thing as software engineering, eh?#

well of course

but that doesn't make their product an "engineering" product, does
it

Uber claims their platform is.

like they claim that they are Newtech company and not a transport
operator

a claim that the courts struck done at first instance

Did they buy their taxi-booking application at PC World, or was there
quite a lot of in-house programing to do?

For the FINAL time

it's an INTERNET based program not an engineering product based program

My employer, like Uber, considers itself to be new tech and considers
itself to be doing engineering. I don't like all that, as I haven't
noticed us building any bridges or tunnels recently, but it is perhaps
a matter of style and opinion - just not mine!

We do at least do all our own software, as I suppose does Uber, so we
need a word for that, it just isn't "engineering" to me. Perhaps we
should use it in the American English term for a train driver - one
who spends all day fiddling with a engine?

I appreciate that the terminology is ambiguous and the term software
engineering has been hijacked away from its original meaning.

but Roland understands the difference, he worked with embedded software
for consumer products for the first 10-15 years of his career

it annoys me immensely that he is pretending not to understand my point

The 'engineering' in Software Engineering has never meant "fiddles with
TTL"

agreed

and it doesn't mean writing Windows (presumably now used for smart-phone)
Apps either

but that is what it was hijacked for 20 years ago (only they weren't called
apps then) (though thinking about it it might be nearer to 30 than 20)

however much you might think that gives you some kudos. It means
"applying
robust principles of engineering practice to the field of computing to
produce practical and reliable solutions" (as opposed to fiddling with TTL
for the purely academic pleasure of finding out what it does, which would
be more CompSci.)

(Speaking as someone who spent many happy years as an embedded software
engineer fiddling with TTL using microcontrollers, but who as CTO of an
Internet SaaS business also very much employs software engineers - just
because it's on the internet doesn't mean it isn't well engineered.

I know

but the distinction that I made was:

being skilled in writing software that is written for an engineered physical
product

and being skilled in writing any software that is well engineered (of which
it is expected that the above is a sub set)

And Roland knows this, he's just being frigging awkward

tim

RIP Boris Bus
 

In message , at 14:33:22 on Fri, 13 Jan
2017, tim... remarked:
Uber would be disappointed (they call themselves a tech firm).

but they ain't an engineering firm, they are an internet(ish) firm

Hmm, no such thing as software engineering, eh?#

well of course

but that doesn't make their product an "engineering" product, does it

Uber claims their platform is.

like they claim that they are Newtech company and not a transport
operator

a claim that the courts struck done at first instance

Did they buy their taxi-booking application at PC World, or was there
quite a lot of in-house programing to do?

For the FINAL time

it's an INTERNET based program not an engineering product based program

My employer, like Uber, considers itself to be new tech and considers
itself to be doing engineering. I don't like all that, as I haven't
noticed us building any bridges or tunnels recently, but it is perhaps
a matter of style and opinion - just not mine!

We do at least do all our own software, as I suppose does Uber, so we
need a word for that, it just isn't "engineering" to me. Perhaps we
should use it in the American English term for a train driver - one
who spends all day fiddling with a engine?

I appreciate that the terminology is ambiguous and the term software
engineering has been hijacked away from its original meaning.

Are you claiming that writing the code for online platforms isn't
"software engineering"?

but Roland understands the difference, he worked with embedded software
for consumer products for the first 10-15 years of his career

I don't recognise that description. In years 10-15 I managed a team of
product developers, who were working on both hardware and software, and
I contributed various design ideas and a few utility programs (eg the
CPC464 Welcome Tape, the CPC6128 "Bank Manager" utility, both the 8-bit
and 16-bit versions of RPED, flying the OEM-kit for MSDOS2-4, and
building the masters for everything from BASIC ROMs to Windows386 were
entirely my work.

My main motivation wasn't to take bread from the mouths of other
programers, but to be forced to understand the computers inside out,
which I felt (unusually, apparently) was a vital element of steering the
project.

it annoys me immensely that he is pretending not to understand my point

If you point is that writing the code for online platforms isn't
"software engineering", then I understand what you are claiming, but
it's plain wrong.
--
Roland Perry

RIP Boris Bus
 

In message , at 19:29:01 on Fri, 13 Jan
2017, tim... remarked:

The 'engineering' in Software Engineering has never meant "fiddles
with TTL"

agreed

and it doesn't mean writing Windows (presumably now used for
smart-phone) Apps either

Ah, a slight light dawns - you think Uber is just an App, and the tooth
fairly provided the backoffice/online platform?

but that is what it was hijacked for 20 years ago (only they weren't
called apps then)

They were called application software, to distinguish them from system
software. And then you had firmware (in ROM) and BIOS, which started off
in ROM - the IBM PC having one of the most famous examples - but later
shrank to being just a bootstrap loader.

(though thinking about it it might be nearer to 30 than 20)

True story: In about 1985 Digital Research (the CP/M GEM people) almost
called them Aids, and then got cold feet.

however much you might think that gives you some kudos. It means
"applying
robust principles of engineering practice to the field of computing to
produce practical and reliable solutions" (as opposed to fiddling with TTL
for the purely academic pleasure of finding out what it does, which would
be more CompSci.)

(Speaking as someone who spent many happy years as an embedded software
engineer fiddling with TTL using microcontrollers, but who as CTO of an
Internet SaaS business also very much employs software engineers - just
because it's on the internet doesn't mean it isn't well engineered.

I know

but the distinction that I made was:

being skilled in writing software that is written for an engineered
physical product

and being skilled in writing any software that is well engineered (of
which it is expected that the above is a sub set)

And Roland knows this, he's just being frigging awkward

I'm talking about software which is engineered to provide an integrated
solution, thus Google's search engine and cloud processing counts, even
though you need a browser and operating system on your device to access
it. Ditto eBay's trading platform.

Now, if eBay wished to embrace Blockchain within their trading platform
they'll need people who understand *both* the existing platform *and*
the concepts and necessary technology to implement/integrate Blockchain.
--
Roland Perry

RIP Boris Bus
 

In message , at 09:22:13 on Fri, 13 Jan
2017, d remarked:

After uni I was an IT installations engineer travelling around the country
installing RS/6000 systems. It was a muppet job, you just did the same thing
over and over again, albeit in a different location and solving the occasional
minor issue. Then I moved onto to coding and systems design which requires far
more originality and thought. So I'm speaking from experience, unlike I suspect
you.

In the 70's I had a job training ICL field engineers in the mystic ways
of 2980's and how to fix them.

It was an unusual job (for both them and me) because it meant having to
understand how a £10m [in today's money] mainframe worked at logic gate
level, as well as how to load (and occasionally devise) test routines in
machine code.

One of the daily tasks for field engineers was installing the latest
VME/B patches from Bracknell, and rebooting the mainframe. That was not
a task the customers were either expected or qualified to do.

However, I don't call that "deploying" VME/B it's just rolling out an
installation - similar to what you were doing it seems.

What "deploying" means is some hardware engineers turning up at
Bracknell with the plans for the 2950 (a 2980-lite) and the specs for a
range of new peripherals, and saying to the Bracknell software
engineers(sic) "OK port a version VME/B onto that then; we'll see you in
six months".

The fun thing was, they needed a 2950 in the Bracknell machine room to
test their early code on, and that required field[1] engineers, and the
field engineers needed training, and my unit (in Letchworth) was the one
which did it. So I think the very first 2950 outside the factory was in
the Letchworth training school. I remember the day they wheeled it in.

[1] Even the programmers at Bracknell were regarded as "customers".
--
Roland Perry

RIP Boris Bus
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:33:22 on Fri, 13 Jan 2017,
tim... remarked:
Uber would be disappointed (they call themselves a tech firm).

but they ain't an engineering firm, they are an internet(ish) firm

Hmm, no such thing as software engineering, eh?#

well of course

but that doesn't make their product an "engineering" product, does
it

Uber claims their platform is.

like they claim that they are Newtech company and not a transport
operator

a claim that the courts struck done at first instance

Did they buy their taxi-booking application at PC World, or was there
quite a lot of in-house programing to do?

For the FINAL time

it's an INTERNET based program not an engineering product based program

My employer, like Uber, considers itself to be new tech and considers
itself to be doing engineering. I don't like all that, as I haven't
noticed us building any bridges or tunnels recently, but it is perhaps
a matter of style and opinion - just not mine!

We do at least do all our own software, as I suppose does Uber, so we
need a word for that, it just isn't "engineering" to me. Perhaps we
should use it in the American English term for a train driver - one
who spends all day fiddling with a engine?

I appreciate that the terminology is ambiguous and the term software
engineering has been hijacked away from its original meaning.

Are you claiming that writing the code for online platforms isn't
"software engineering"?

No

Because it's not relevant to the discussion of whether there is, or is not,
a shortage of people skilled in a particular subset of that task

but Roland understands the difference, he worked with embedded software
for consumer products for the first 10-15 years of his career

I don't recognise that description. In years 10-15 I managed a team of
product developers, who were working on both hardware and software, and I
contributed various design ideas and a few utility programs (eg the CPC464
Welcome Tape, the CPC6128 "Bank Manager" utility, both the 8-bit and
16-bit versions of RPED, flying the OEM-kit for MSDOS2-4, and building the
masters for everything from BASIC ROMs to Windows386 were entirely my
work.

Ok my mistake

it annoys me immensely that he is pretending not to understand my point

If you point is that writing the code for online platforms isn't "software
engineering", then I understand what you are claiming, but it's plain
wrong.

But it is not my point

My point is that the specialist knowledge used for writing the code for
online platforms (whether that be software engineer or just plain code
cutting) does not sufficiently overlap with the specialist knowledge
required to efficiently write code for engineering products (and FTAOD that
works both ways). So that people who are good at one cannot move to the
other without having to learn that specialist knowledge. (There is no
suggestion here that they cannot learn it, just that it takes time. And IME
(and of my peers) employers are not prepared to pay for that time other than
for a raw graduate, so unless you can self-fund the learning process, you
have no way in.)

And to extend from that, just because you know that there is a shortage of
workers in one group cannot help you determine if there is a shortage in the
other.

tim

RIP Boris Bus
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 19:29:01 on Fri, 13 Jan 2017,
tim... remarked:

The 'engineering' in Software Engineering has never meant "fiddles with
TTL"

agreed

and it doesn't mean writing Windows (presumably now used for smart-phone)
Apps either

Ah, a slight light dawns - you think Uber is just an App, and the tooth
fairly provided the backoffice/online platform?

There is no connection with this discussion on the way that "software
engineer" has been Hijacked

and Uber's requirement.

we have drifted topic

but that is what it was hijacked for 20 years ago (only they weren't
called apps then)

They were called application software, to distinguish them from system
software. And then you had firmware (in ROM) and BIOS, which started off
in ROM - the IBM PC having one of the most famous examples - but later
shrank to being just a bootstrap loader.

Yes I know all this

I have written Windows Applications in a past world (starting at 2.0)

(though thinking about it it might be nearer to 30 than 20)

True story: In about 1985 Digital Research (the CP/M GEM people) almost
called them Aids, and then got cold feet.

however much you might think that gives you some kudos. It means
"applying
robust principles of engineering practice to the field of computing to
produce practical and reliable solutions" (as opposed to fiddling with
TTL
for the purely academic pleasure of finding out what it does, which
would
be more CompSci.)

(Speaking as someone who spent many happy years as an embedded software
engineer fiddling with TTL using microcontrollers, but who as CTO of an
Internet SaaS business also very much employs software engineers - just
because it's on the internet doesn't mean it isn't well engineered.

I know

but the distinction that I made was:

being skilled in writing software that is written for an engineered
physical product

and being skilled in writing any software that is well engineered (of
which it is expected that the above is a sub set)

And Roland knows this, he's just being frigging awkward

I'm talking about software which is engineered to provide an integrated
solution, thus Google's search engine and cloud processing counts, even
though you need a browser and operating system on your device to access
it. Ditto eBay's trading platform.

But the point is that you were using this example as some sort of proof that
there is some similarity in the way that software developers work
proficiently on software for an engineering product.

And I am saying that you can't. They are too different an end product to be
useful for that.

Now, if eBay wished to embrace Blockchain within their trading platform
they'll need people who understand *both* the existing platform *and* the
concepts and necessary technology to implement/integrate Blockchain.

I know nothing about Blockchain, it is (/would appear to be) not a useful
tool when writing software for an engineering product.

tim

RIP Boris Bus
 

In message , at 10:55:38 on Sat, 14 Jan
2017, tim... remarked:

Ah, a slight light dawns - you think Uber is just an App, and the
tooth fairly provided the backoffice/online platform?

There is no connection with this discussion on the way that "software
engineer" has been Hijacked

and Uber's requirement.

You are still insisting that it doesn't require software engineers to
build Uber's platform?

I have written Windows Applications in a past world (starting at 2.0)

Bully for you. Uber's backoffice/online platform is not an
"application".

I'm talking about software which is engineered to provide an
integrated solution, thus Google's search engine and cloud processing
counts, even though you need a browser and operating system on your
device to access it. Ditto eBay's trading platform.

But the point is that you were using this example as some sort of proof
that there is some similarity in the way that software developers work
proficiently on software for an engineering product.

All the deliverables above (Uber, Google, eBay) are engineering
products.

I know nothing about Blockchain,

QED, which is why it's necessary to recruit new blood which does.

it is (/would appear to be) not a useful tool when writing software for
an engineering product.

Blockchain isn't a tool, it's a process (or protocol if you prefer).
--
Roland Perry