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From
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/green-is-the-new-black-as-cabs-go-electric-zsw09x0vs?shareToken=69253c87e03a17954a21109c3c08f 0e9 Extract: Britain’s latest car plant — and the country’s first factory exclusively building electric vehicles — is to open in Coventry in the spring as the China-backed London Taxi Company rises from the ashes and begins production on new battery-driven black cabs. The new redesigned black cabs will go on sale by the end of the year as all new taxis aiming to ply for trade in London will need to abide by strict low-emissions rules from January 1, 2018. LTC has been reborn from the buy-out by the Hangzhou-based Geely of London Taxi International, which failed in the 2012 collapse of Manganese Bronze. The factory, part of a $400 million project, will open its doors for the first time on March 22. The new plug-in hybrid electric cab — capable of running at least 70 miles on a single electric charge but which will have a back-up petrol engine — is aimed at replacing the 22,500-strong fleet of diesel cabs on the capital’s roads. … The new vehicle’s success will in part depend on Transport for London and other authorities honouring their commitments to putting in cab-dedicated, fast-charging infrastructure. TfL has committed to installing 150 such charging points by the end of next year. |
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"Recliner" wrote in message ... I saw this, I did wonder where it should be posted The new plug-in hybrid electric cab — capable of running at least 70 miles on a single electric charge 70 miles!!! is that really enough but which will have a back-up petrol engine — If it has a back up engine it isn't zero emissions, is it? I know you didn't post that, but the headline I saw, said it tim |
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On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 12:08:26 -0000, "tim..."
wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... I saw this, I did wonder where it should be posted The new plug-in hybrid electric cab — capable of running at least 70 miles on a single electric charge 70 miles!!! is that really enough It's pretty good for a PHEV. To stay on the battery alone, it will obviously need to recharge periodically during the day. but which will have a back-up petrol engine — If it has a back up engine it isn't zero emissions, is it? It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone. |
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On 2017-01-30 12:28:27 +0000, Recliner said:
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone. That is quite a good interim model - would work for things like buses and coaches too, as well as private cars. I can see such an approach becoming mandatory in cities before long - only zero-emission within the city zone, fire up the small, high-speed turbocharged/supercharged petrol engine at optimum revs (probably that rather than diesel) to charge up on the motorway, as until we get more of our electricity generation onto renewables/nuclear there actually isn't really a pollution increase by doing that over pure electric - electric cars are really about removing pollution at the point of use from cities. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
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"Recliner" wrote in message ... On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 12:08:26 -0000, "tim..." wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... I saw this, I did wonder where it should be posted The new plug-in hybrid electric cab - capable of running at least 70 miles on a single electric charge 70 miles!!! is that really enough It's pretty good for a PHEV. I meant is that enough for a taxi To stay on the battery alone, it will obviously need to recharge periodically during the day. but which will have a back-up petrol engine - If it has a back up engine it isn't zero emissions, is it? It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone. but that wasn't the claim tim |
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"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On 2017-01-30 12:28:27 +0000, Recliner said: It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone. That is quite a good interim model - seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an interim model by what is already a very small niche company tim |
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tim... wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On 2017-01-30 12:28:27 +0000, Recliner said: It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone. That is quite a good interim model - seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an interim model The vehicle isn't the interim model. by what is already a very small niche company Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"??? It's a multi-billion dollar corporation. |
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On 2017-01-30 16:59:31 +0000, Recliner said:
The vehicle isn't the interim model. That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric vehicle when battery technology is good enough. The factory, of course, will be able to switch. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
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"Recliner" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On 2017-01-30 12:28:27 +0000, Recliner said: It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone. That is quite a good interim model - seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an interim model The vehicle isn't the interim model. by what is already a very small niche company Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"??? the market for "London" cabs is tim |
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tim... wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On 2017-01-30 12:28:27 +0000, Recliner said: It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone. That is quite a good interim model - seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an interim model The vehicle isn't the interim model. by what is already a very small niche company Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"??? the market for "London" cabs is Yet again, you're misinformed. Do you really think a hard-headed Chinese company would be investing so much just for the London market? |
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"Recliner" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On 2017-01-30 12:28:27 +0000, Recliner said: It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone. That is quite a good interim model - seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an interim model The vehicle isn't the interim model. by what is already a very small niche company Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"??? the market for "London" cabs is Yet again, you're misinformed. It's thousands per year that us a niche market Do you really think a hard-headed Chinese company would be investing so much just for the London market? I know that there are overseas sales, but they still don't stop it being a niche market tim |
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wrote in message ... On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 19:45:17 -0000, "tim..." wrote: Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"??? the market for "London" cabs is tim Not exclusive to London, which is why it is in quotes I was referring to London-style cabs, not cabs that operate in London I know that people elsewhere buy them, but they don't need to. And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is more generic than a "London" cab. tim |
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tim... wrote:
wrote in message ... On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 19:45:17 -0000, "tim..." wrote: Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"??? the market for "London" cabs is tim Not exclusive to London, which is why it is in quotes I was referring to London-style cabs, not cabs that operate in London I know that people elsewhere buy them, but they don't need to. And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is more generic than a "London" cab. Did you actually read the story that triggered this thread? It appears not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously described as a "very small niche company". Sometimes it does help to know at least a little about a subject before commenting… |
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On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 10:15:58 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: tim... wrote: And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is more generic than a "London" cab. Did you actually read the story that triggered this thread? It appears not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously described as a "very small niche company". For such a large company you'd think they could have designed something a bit less utterly butt ugly than the horror that was presented the other day. Is there some TfL requirement along with the turning circle that London taxi designs are all done by the RNIB? The current design looks like Noddys car, the metrocab was a box on wheels, the old TX was straight out the 1950s. -- Spud |
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"Recliner" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: wrote in message ... On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 19:45:17 -0000, "tim..." wrote: Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"??? the market for "London" cabs is tim Not exclusive to London, which is why it is in quotes I was referring to London-style cabs, not cabs that operate in London I know that people elsewhere buy them, but they don't need to. And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is more generic than a "London" cab. I read a different newspaper article saying something similar It appears not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously described as a "very small niche company". OK I made the mistake of forgetting that it had been bought by a large conglomerate but nevertheless the market for this vehicle is small and niche It's all very well the parent company having the funds to pay for this, but companies usually expect each of their product sectors to survive on their own sales, not be subsidised by the wealth of daddy. And I don't believe that this little niche can support the R&D needed to develop a zero emissions vehicle. It is a development based upon the "hope" that they can expand sales into more regions than they have now. and when the competition is from a more generic vehicle (that can be used elsewhere as a taxi), I don't believe that they will achieve that. Sometimes it does help to know at least a little about a subject before commenting… I know at least as much as the majority here I have actually worked for a company (working towards) producing an electric vehicle (so I know exactly how over-hyped it is) |
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On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000
Recliner wrote: The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means. The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla. - The taxis are inevitably boxy, as the aim is to carry 5/6 passengers plus some luggage using the least possible road space. The merc ones are boxy but still look good. - They should look distinctive, so they're not confused with other vehicles. They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on the roof is the giveaway! Factor all that in, and it's not surprising they look the way they do. I disagree. They look the way they do because they probably spent a fiver on the design. -- Spud |
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On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:51:06 +0000
Recliner wrote: On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:41:54 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000 Recliner wrote: The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means. They look like timeless London taxis, which was the aim. They don't look like contemporary private cars which will look dated in five years. No you're right, they are like london taxis which look dated the moment they roll off the production line. The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla. They're modern LED lights. Doesn't matter how they work, the exterior design is circa 1990s econobox. The merc ones are boxy but still look good. You're joking! They look like the vans they started off as. Better a van than something noddy and Bigears drive around in. Spot the resemblance? http://www.vectis.co.uk/AuctionImages/92/473_l.jpg They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on the roof is the giveaway! Remember that we don't force taxis to all be the same colour in London. London black cabs are just about colour but black these days, so it's helpful if they have a familiar shape. I think you're clutching at straws here. Minicabs come in all shapes and sizes but its not hard to spot one if its got the TfL roundal in the window. I disagree. They look the way they do because they probably spent a fiver on the design. Perhaps you don't know that Peter Horbury is a very experienced, respected car designer? You genuinely think this vehicle looks good? http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...ore-details-of -cleaner-tx5-hybrid-revealed Looking at it again I've noticed they've graced it with what looks like wheelhubs from an austin maxi. Sorry, its a fugly. But since its a near captive market they could have designed it to look like captain cavemans piles and it would still sell because the poor cabbies have little choice. -- Spud |
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wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:51:06 +0000 Recliner wrote: On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:41:54 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000 Recliner wrote: The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means. They look like timeless London taxis, which was the aim. They don't look like contemporary private cars which will look dated in five years. No you're right, they are like london taxis which look dated the moment they roll off the production line. The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla. They're modern LED lights. Doesn't matter how they work, the exterior design is circa 1990s econobox. The merc ones are boxy but still look good. You're joking! They look like the vans they started off as. Better a van than something noddy and Bigears drive around in. Spot the resemblance? http://www.vectis.co.uk/AuctionImages/92/473_l.jpg They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on the roof is the giveaway! Remember that we don't force taxis to all be the same colour in London. London black cabs are just about colour but black these days, so it's helpful if they have a familiar shape. I think you're clutching at straws here. Minicabs come in all shapes and sizes but its not hard to spot one if its got the TfL roundal in the window. I disagree. They look the way they do because they probably spent a fiver on the design. Perhaps you don't know that Peter Horbury is a very experienced, respected car designer? You genuinely think this vehicle looks good? http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...ore-details-of -cleaner-tx5-hybrid-revealed Looking at it again I've noticed they've graced it with what looks like wheelhubs from an austin maxi. Sorry, its a fugly. But since its a near captive market they could have designed it to look like captain cavemans piles and it would still sell because the poor cabbies have little choice. Cabs are not chosen on the basis of looks, and no London cabs look good. They're tools of business, and are chosen on the basis of lower costs, better reliability, better resale value, capacity, etc. If these are the only fully emissions compliant model that also complies with London's strict taxi regulations, they'll sell well. |
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On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 14:32:21 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: Cabs are not chosen on the basis of looks, and no London cabs look good. They're tools of business, and are chosen on the basis of lower costs, better reliability, better resale value, capacity, etc. If these are the Sure, but you can say the same about trucks. But the manufacturers do make some attempt to make them look a bit nicer than a box on wheels. This looks like it was designed in 5 minutes on autocad. only fully emissions compliant model that also complies with London's strict taxi regulations, they'll sell well. If you have a monopoly of course your stuff will sell well. -- Spud |
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On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:10:57 +0000, Recliner
wrote: On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:07:02 -0000, "tim..." wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message . .. On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 10:32:18 -0000, "tim..." wrote: So you think Geely is like Sinclair? Jeez! If you don't like what tim... contributes to this ng, why don't you just ignore it. Guy Gorton |
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On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 06:06:32PM +0000, Neil Williams wrote:
On 2017-01-30 16:59:31 +0000, Recliner said: The vehicle isn't the interim model. That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric vehicle when battery technology is good enough. We don't know when it will be good enough. Or if it ever will be. We can at least be fairly sure that it ain't gonna be any time in the next few years. So waiting until it is good enough is silly. -- David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence Languages for which ISO-Latin-$n is not necessary, #1 in a series: Latin |
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On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 09:59:01AM -0000, tim... wrote:
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is more generic than a "London" cab. There's no real research needed for a plug-in hybrid. And the owners aren't going to do any research purely for the London cab market, they're going to do it for cars in general, a small fraction of which will be London-style cabs. Once you've done the research, making and bolting together appropriately shaped batteries and motors is relatively straightforward. The only real spanner in the works that I can foresee is if the Wonder Miracle Battery (tm) has specific size and shape requirements. -- David Cantrell | Pope | First Church of the Symmetrical Internet "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken |
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On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:24:00AM +0000, d wrote:
For such a large company you'd think they could have designed something a bit less utterly butt ugly than the horror that was presented the other day. Have you not seen any cars manufactured by large companies recently? -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken |
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On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:50:26AM +0000, Recliner wrote:
- They need a large grille as they spend a lot of time idling in traffic, so they need lots of cooling air. The earlier TX4 model had engine fires because of the lack of cooling air. I assume that with this one if it's not moving it won't be burning fuel, just like a Prius. -- David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire In Victorian times, when every man wore a beard the size of a yew, Britain ruled the world. In the early 20th century, when the beard was trimmed to a moustache, we scraped through two world wars but lost an empire. Today, when Mach3 Turbo multi-blades are the norm, our national pride derives largely from beating the Swedes at Olympic cycling. Grow a beard. Your country needs you. |
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"David Cantrell" wrote in message k... On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 06:06:32PM +0000, Neil Williams wrote: On 2017-01-30 16:59:31 +0000, Recliner said: The vehicle isn't the interim model. That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric vehicle when battery technology is good enough. We don't know when it will be good enough. Ah, we might not know but TPTB do otherwise they wouldn't have put in laws mandating use of 100% emission free vehicles by insert some date in, the not to distant, future If technology hasn't invented new battery technology by then, we will all be breaking the law (or only allowed to drive cars with pathetic ranges) tim |
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On 2017-02-01 12:01:24 +0000, David Cantrell said:
On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 06:06:32PM +0000, Neil Williams wrote: On 2017-01-30 16:59:31 +0000, Recliner said: The vehicle isn't the interim model. That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric vehicle when battery technology is good enough. We don't know when it will be good enough. Or if it ever will be. We can at least be fairly sure that it ain't gonna be any time in the next few years. So waiting until it is good enough is silly. Who says to wait? That's precisely why an interim model is proposed. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
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On 2017-02-01 12:18:22 +0000, David Cantrell said:
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:50:26AM +0000, Recliner wrote: - They need a large grille as they spend a lot of time idling in traffic, so they need lots of cooling air. The earlier TX4 model had engine fires because of the lack of cooling air. I assume that with this one if it's not moving it won't be burning fuel, just like a Prius. And crawling in traffic it'll use electricity only, just like a Prius (or Bozza bus). Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
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On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:31:30 -0000, "tim..."
wrote: "David Cantrell" wrote in message . uk... On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 06:06:32PM +0000, Neil Williams wrote: On 2017-01-30 16:59:31 +0000, Recliner said: The vehicle isn't the interim model. That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric vehicle when battery technology is good enough. We don't know when it will be good enough. Ah, we might not know but TPTB do otherwise they wouldn't have put in laws mandating use of 100% emission free vehicles by insert some date in, the not to distant, future If technology hasn't invented new battery technology by then, we will all be breaking the law (or only allowed to drive cars with pathetic ranges) How large is the zone where zero emissions is required? If it's reasonably small, the PHEV could run with zero emissions within it, but would be able to use its small petrol engine to recharge outside it (assuming there aren't enough charging points, which there should be soon). |
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On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 12:09:50 +0000, David Cantrell
wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 09:59:01AM -0000, tim... wrote: And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is more generic than a "London" cab. There's no real research needed for a plug-in hybrid. And the owners aren't going to do any research purely for the London cab market, they're going to do it for cars in general, a small fraction of which will be London-style cabs. Once you've done the research, making and bolting together appropriately shaped batteries and motors is relatively straightforward. The only real spanner in the works that I can foresee is if the Wonder Miracle Battery (tm) has specific size and shape requirements. The battery pack will consist of a slab of lots of small cells that will probably be placed under the floor, just as with Teslas, the forthcoming Jaguar I-Pace, etc. It'll be easy to do with a high floor taxi. |
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On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 12:13:56 +0000
David Cantrell wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:24:00AM +0000, d wrote: For such a large company you'd think they could have designed something a bit less utterly butt ugly than the horror that was presented the other day. Have you not seen any cars manufactured by large companies recently? Yes, there are plenty of ugly vehicles out there. But usually its a one off balls up by the company concerned. However taxis by LTI have been consistently ugly for 50 years. Thats not a balls up, its complete indifference to any sort of aesthetic appeal. -- Spud |
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"Recliner" wrote in message ... On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:31:30 -0000, "tim..." wrote: "David Cantrell" wrote in message .uk... On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 06:06:32PM +0000, Neil Williams wrote: On 2017-01-30 16:59:31 +0000, Recliner said: The vehicle isn't the interim model. That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric vehicle when battery technology is good enough. We don't know when it will be good enough. Ah, we might not know but TPTB do otherwise they wouldn't have put in laws mandating use of 100% emission free vehicles by insert some date in, the not to distant, future If technology hasn't invented new battery technology by then, we will all be breaking the law (or only allowed to drive cars with pathetic ranges) How large is the zone where zero emissions is required? I wasn't just referring to this law NL is seriously considering decreeing that no "non zero emissions" cars will be allowed in the whole of the country from 2025 Other European countries are considering similar restrictions over smaller area If it's reasonably small, the PHEV could run with zero emissions within it, but would be able to use its small petrol engine to recharge outside it (assuming there aren't enough charging points, which there should be soon). and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone? It might work with taxis that can have equipment installed to regulate them but it isn't going to work for every arrival in the city from the rest of the UK/Europe tim |
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On 2017-02-01 16:40:02 +0000, tim... said:
and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone? I know it's a bit old fashioned and quaint, but how's about we have some of those "police officers" walking and driving around the place? You know, the kind that would see a crime being committed and investigate, and if necessary issue a ticket or conduct an arrest? Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
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Neil Williams wrote:
On 2017-02-01 16:40:02 +0000, tim... said: and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone? I know it's a bit old fashioned and quaint, but how's about we have some of those "police officers" walking and driving around the place? You know, the kind that would see a crime being committed and investigate, and if necessary issue a ticket or conduct an arrest? I suspect that you could have automatic detectors that sniff out tailpipe emissions from passing vehicles, and photograph them. |
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"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On 2017-02-01 16:40:02 +0000, tim... said: and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone? I know it's a bit old fashioned and quaint, but how's about we have some of those "police officers" walking and driving around the place? You know, the kind that would see a crime being committed and investigate, and if necessary issue a ticket or conduct an arrest? and when did you last see one of those? tim |
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tim... wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On 2017-02-01 16:40:02 +0000, tim... said: and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone? I know it's a bit old fashioned and quaint, but how's about we have some of those "police officers" walking and driving around the place? You know, the kind that would see a crime being committed and investigate, and if necessary issue a ticket or conduct an arrest? and when did you last see one of those? I agree, there would have to be automatic detectors. Maybe parking wardens could also play a part. Alsp, only vehicles capable of zero emissions would be allowed into the zone. Others would either be banned or would have to pay a T Charge, as is planned for central London. |
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