Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:49:33 on Mon, 3 Apr 2017,
Martin Coffee remarked:

If a train is stranded without a functional driver then the situation
can serious especially if the signalling is such that the signaller
doesn't know exactly where the train is. I dread to think what might
happen if this is somewhere without mobile coverage.

It's a balance between what might go wrong once a year, and the cost of
all those guards.

Taking the recent concrete example of introduction of DOO, I'm pretty sure
the agreements on Southern (for now at least) involve a member of staff
being on every train (with limited exceptions), and I'm pretty sure they
were re-employed on their new contracts with no loss of pay. Obviously both
of these things may change in the future, but at present, where does your
huge cash saving come from?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
05:15:04 on Mon, 3 Apr 2017, remarked:

My point was to highlight how seriously the law takes lack-of-insurance
offences.

Not seriously enough to routinely stop the cars and ask, though. They
could start with the illegally parked ones - that'll get through the
fleet in no time!

The reasons for the stops vary but checking on the insurance is just an
online look-up job. It's amazing how many cars stopped for whatever reasons
are then caught for lack of insurance as well.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Anna
Noyd-Dryver) wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:03:26 on Mon, 3 Apr
2017, Martin Coffee remarked:

If there is no mobile phone coverage, what is the guard going to do?

Network Rail have their own communication system which will work in
those areas.

Do they issue GSM-R handsets to guards (genuine question).


No. But the one in the back- or intermediate- cab can easily be turned on.
That doesn't, of course, help if the train involved is an HST or is
loco-hauled with the DVT leading (or with no DVT).

Surely, every train has at least two cabs somehow? We don't have single-cab
as the only locos on passenger trains.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 18:56:14
on Mon, 3 Apr 2017, remarked:
My point was to highlight how seriously the law takes lack-of-insurance
offences.

Not seriously enough to routinely stop the cars and ask, though. They
could start with the illegally parked ones - that'll get through the
fleet in no time!

The reasons for the stops vary but checking on the insurance is just an
online look-up job. It's amazing how many cars stopped for whatever reasons
are then caught for lack of insurance as well.

The problem with the current model of ANPR and lookup for insurance is
that the cars do have insurance, just not for "reward/hire".
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
15:25:59 on Mon, 3 Apr 2017, remarked:
On Sunday, April 2, 2017 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:29:00
on Sun, 2 Apr 2017, remarked:
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/lon...-requirements/

The main complaint is that they don't (do much checking). And
reportedly the problem with insurance is they don't track
cancellations

I'm not even sure there's a mechanism for that even if they wanted to

They could do spot checks on the drivers, say once a month on average
for each, and blacklist the ones without insurance.

I think you mean take them to court to get 6 points on their licence?

No, but the licensing authorities and police are.

Why would Uber snitch on their customers (and make no mistake, Uber's
customers are the drivers, passengers are the customers of the drivers).

I'm sorry but you've made the mistake. Uber's customers are the
passengers because Uber debit their credit cards. The passengers
do not pay the drivers.

You misunderstand the nature of Internet intermediaries.

If it was as you say, then there would be no doubt whatsoever that Uber
as a transportion company and the drivers were employees. Uber deny both
vociferously.

When you buy something online from a retailer, and they charge you via
your credit card and Worldpay, you are in no sense a customer of
Worldpay. They are just a collecting agency, and to the extent that the
fares go from you to Uber to the driver, then they are just a money
collecting agency.

Where it starts getting mucky is that they are also a booking agency,
and just as you don't expect Amazon to be letting people sell handguns
and child abuse images on their platform, you shouldn't be expecting
Uber to match you up with an unlicenced or uninsured driver.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:33:00 on Mon, 3 Apr 2017,
Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

If a train is stranded without a functional driver then the situation
can serious especially if the signalling is such that the signaller
doesn't know exactly where the train is. I dread to think what might
happen if this is somewhere without mobile coverage.

It's a balance between what might go wrong once a year, and the cost of
all those guards.

Taking the recent concrete example of introduction of DOO, I'm pretty sure
the agreements on Southern (for now at least) involve a member of staff
being on every train (with limited exceptions), and I'm pretty sure they
were re-employed on their new contracts with no loss of pay. Obviously both
of these things may change in the future, but at present, where does your
huge cash saving come from?

The ongoing training programme, training of new guards, and as you
suggest the employment of new on-train staff at a different grade,
despite not "demoting" the grandfathered-in existing guards.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 19:05:47
on Mon, 3 Apr 2017, remarked:
If there is no mobile phone coverage, what is the guard going to do?

Network Rail have their own communication system which will work in
those areas.

Do they issue GSM-R handsets to guards (genuine question).


No. But the one in the back- or intermediate- cab can easily be turned on.
That doesn't, of course, help if the train involved is an HST or is
loco-hauled with the DVT leading (or with no DVT).

Surely, every train has at least two cabs somehow? We don't have single-cab
as the only locos on passenger trains.

A loco-hauled train will have two cabs, but how does the guard easily
get to the rear cab of the loco?
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
19:05:47 on Mon, 3 Apr 2017, remarked:
If there is no mobile phone coverage, what is the guard going to
do?

Network Rail have their own communication system which will work in
those areas.

Do they issue GSM-R handsets to guards (genuine question).


No. But the one in the back- or intermediate- cab can easily be turned
on. That doesn't, of course, help if the train involved is an HST or is
loco-hauled with the DVT leading (or with no DVT).

Surely, every train has at least two cabs somehow? We don't have
single-cab as the only locos on passenger trains.

A loco-hauled train will have two cabs, but how does the guard easily
get to the rear cab of the loco?

Presumably along the trackside.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
18:56:14 on Mon, 3 Apr 2017, remarked:
My point was to highlight how seriously the law takes
lack-of-insurance offences.

Not seriously enough to routinely stop the cars and ask, though. They
could start with the illegally parked ones - that'll get through the
fleet in no time!

The reasons for the stops vary but checking on the insurance is just an
online look-up job. It's amazing how many cars stopped for whatever
reasons are then caught for lack of insurance as well.

The problem with the current model of ANPR and lookup for insurance
is that the cars do have insurance, just not for "reward/hire".

I assume the online lookup can find such details. Drivers get done for
insurance offences. We used to get a steady stream of them before
councillors because getting as many as 6 points at once was a trigger for a
licence review.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message ,
at 15:25:59 on Mon, 3 Apr 2017, remarked:

I'm sorry but you've made the mistake. Uber's customers are the
passengers because Uber debit their credit cards. The passengers
do not pay the drivers.

You misunderstand the nature of Internet intermediaries.

If it was as you say, then there would be no doubt whatsoever that
Uber as a transportion company and the drivers were employees. Uber
deny both vociferously.

When you buy something online from a retailer, and they charge you
via your credit card and Worldpay, you are in no sense a customer of
Worldpay. They are just a collecting agency, and to the extent that
the fares go from you to Uber to the driver, then they are just a
money collecting agency.

Where it starts getting mucky is that they are also a booking agency,
and just as you don't expect Amazon to be letting people sell
handguns and child abuse images on their platform, you shouldn't be
expecting Uber to match you up with an unlicenced or uninsured driver.

To take hire car bookings in the UK Uber have to be an operator as well.
That is an activity that has to licensed by a local authority and they have
obligations, especially to keep records of hirings.

--
Colin Rosenstiel