https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

Called the Elizabeth line, London’s newest route was funded by taxpayers
and businesses in the capital and is due to carry 200m people a year. Four
Crossrail trains an hour will start running between Paddington and Heathrow
from next May — though not to Terminal 5 as the Heathrow Express has an
exclusive deal to run services there until 2023.

…

The company is believed to have identified a location near the airport
where trains could be redirected back towards Paddington or continue west —
though turning around trains on the Great Western line would create a huge
headache on the main artery between the capital and the west of England and
south Wales.

On 21/05/2017 09:58, Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

Called the Elizabeth line, London’s newest route was funded by taxpayers
and businesses in the capital and is due to carry 200m people a year. Four
Crossrail trains an hour will start running between Paddington and Heathrow
from next May — though not to Terminal 5 as the Heathrow Express has an
exclusive deal to run services there until 2023.


Easy answer, charge Heathrow £1k per train for the Heathrow Express to
use the new Paddington layout.

But why didn't someone in the DfT pick up on this before they started
building Crossrail?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message , at 10:10:48 on Sun, 21 May
2017, Graeme Wall remarked:
The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds — want to recoup its past spending on the private train line
with an “investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train
that uses the track, plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Easy answer, charge Heathrow £1k per train for the Heathrow Express to
use the new Paddington layout.

They already have ongoing rights to use Paddington, the only leverage
will be retribution when that ends in 2023 (HEx reportedly want to be
able to run further into the core, then).

But why didn't someone in the DfT pick up on this before they started
building Crossrail?

This has been known about all along, but I suspect that the DfT thought
it could stare-down HEx when the time came.

What could possibly go wrong?
--
Roland Perry

If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington. Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading and Clapham Junction come to mind.


On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 2:31:45 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...hrow-jwrcctt60

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

Called the Elizabeth line, London’s newest route was funded by taxpayers
and businesses in the capital and is due to carry 200m people a year. Four
Crossrail trains an hour will start running between Paddington and Heathrow
from next May — though not to Terminal 5 as the Heathrow Express has an
exclusive deal to run services there until 2023.

…

The company is believed to have identified a location near the airport
where trains could be redirected back towards Paddington or continue west —
though turning around trains on the Great Western line would create a huge
headache on the main artery between the capital and the west of England and
south Wales.

In message , at
09:22:54 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.
Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather
than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow
to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains
could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading

Once a new line is built beyond Heathrow.

and Clapham Junction come to mind.

Once an even less likely to ever happen new line, is built beyond
Heathrow.

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 2:31:45 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...-at-heathrow-j
wrcctt60

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses
the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.


--
Roland Perry

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 11:07:19 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
09:22:54 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.
Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather
than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow
to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains
could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading

Once a new line is built beyond Heathrow.

What new line? The same line that takes Heathrow Express to Paddington can be
used to go to Reading. Trains would just have to turn west toward
Reading instead instead of east toward Paddington.

and Clapham Junction come to mind.

Once an even less likely to ever happen new line, is built beyond
Heathrow.

Why a new line? The line to Paddington crosses the London Overground line
that goes to Clapham Junction. If there's no switch to turn south toward
Clapham Junction, that can be added.

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 2:31:45 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...-at-heathrow-j
wrcctt60

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses
the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.


--
Roland Perry

In message , at
11:37:52 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 11:07:19 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
09:22:54 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.
Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather
than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow
to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains
could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading

Once a new line is built beyond Heathrow.

What new line? The same line that takes Heathrow Express to Paddington can be
used to go to Reading. Trains would just have to turn west toward
Reading instead instead of east toward Paddington.

Across a lake and through the middle of a warehouse. What could possibly
go wrong?

and Clapham Junction come to mind.

Once an even less likely to ever happen new line, is built beyond
Heathrow.

Why a new line? The line to Paddington crosses the London Overground line
that goes to Clapham Junction. If there's no switch to turn south toward
Clapham Junction, that can be added.

Back in the day there was a loop around Old Oak Common, used by XC
trains to/from Brighton. Even if reinstated, where are you going to get
the extra paths from between Heathrow Junction and Acton?

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
11:37:52 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 11:07:19 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
09:22:54 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.
Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather
than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow
to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains
could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading

Once a new line is built beyond Heathrow.

What new line? The same line that takes Heathrow Express to Paddington can be
used to go to Reading. Trains would just have to turn west toward
Reading instead instead of east toward Paddington.

Across a lake and through the middle of a warehouse. What could possibly
go wrong?

and Clapham Junction come to mind.

Once an even less likely to ever happen new line, is built beyond
Heathrow.

Why a new line? The line to Paddington crosses the London Overground line
that goes to Clapham Junction. If there's no switch to turn south toward
Clapham Junction, that can be added.

Back in the day there was a loop around Old Oak Common, used by XC
trains to/from Brighton. Even if reinstated, where are you going to get
the extra paths from between Heathrow Junction and Acton?

I think the unelectrified route is still there, but it's slow. And, as you
say, there are no spare paths on any of the busy routes the trains would
have to use.

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 3:03:07 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
11:37:52 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 11:07:19 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
09:22:54 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.
Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather
than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow
to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains
could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading

Once a new line is built beyond Heathrow.

What new line? The same line that takes Heathrow Express to Paddington can be
used to go to Reading. Trains would just have to turn west toward
Reading instead instead of east toward Paddington.

Across a lake and through the middle of a warehouse. What could possibly
go wrong?

It would require some construction. To the east of Heathpark Golf Course, the railroad is in a tunnel. The tunnel would have to be forked and the fork routed to some point before West Drayton station, so that there can be trains from Heathrow to Reading and points beyond. For comparison, there are trains from Frankfurt airport to cities other than Frankfurt.

and Clapham Junction come to mind.

Once an even less likely to ever happen new line, is built beyond
Heathrow.

Why a new line? The line to Paddington crosses the London Overground line
that goes to Clapham Junction. If there's no switch to turn south toward
Clapham Junction, that can be added.

Back in the day there was a loop around Old Oak Common, used by XC
trains to/from Brighton. Even if reinstated, where are you going to get
the extra paths from between Heathrow Junction and Acton?

If some trains from Reading (or Bristol) to Paddington are routed to Heathrow instead, that would free up capacity.

Ding Bat wrote:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.

No, the 9-car, 4 tph Crossrail trains will go from Heathrow T4 to Abbey
Wood. They will replace the 5-car, 2 tph Heathrow Connect service to
Paddington.

Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather than
Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow to a
number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains could be
run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading and Clapham Junction come to mind.

Using what route?