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Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote: In message , at 08:01:41 on Sun, 11 Jun 2017, remarked: some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s. Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those! Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead. I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys. In London? Are you mad??!! -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
On 12/06/2017 01:25, wrote:
In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 08:01:41 on Sun, 11 Jun 2017, remarked: some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s. Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those! Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead. I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys. In London? Are you mad??!! Even those of us who live in London, sometimes like to leave London and apparently places in the provincess aren't as well served by public transport. |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
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I have been to Highgate Station several times. I'm wondering
what you're seeing that I'm not. If one stands at the Priory Gardens entrance, the dilapidated remnants of the original station are clearly visible. Access to the Northern Line involves walking under them. Any plan London Underground might have had to take over the branch to Ally Pally would not have incorporated using the original station. It would have involved branching off from their own Underground station and joining the original track where it runs alongside Highgate Wood. (Still today in Highgate Wood there is a demarcation fence separating the wood from the railway land) |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
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Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 19:25:56 on Sun, 11 Jun 2017, remarked: some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s. Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those! Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead. I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys. In London? Are you mad??!! No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for. I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it! -- Spud |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 09:14:25 +0100
Robin9 wrote: ;162181 Wrote: It was a lot more than preparatory work. Have you ever looked at Highgate station? It was close to ready for trains to run. London Underground didn't take over the Ongar train service before 1957 but they had taken over the line long before then. -- Colin Rosenstiel I have been to Highgate Station several times. I'm wondering what you're seeing that I'm not. If one stands at the Priory Gardens entrance, the dilapidated remnants of the original station are clearly visible. Access to Thats not the original station, LT rebuilt it AFAIK. the Northern Line involves walking under them. Any plan London Underground might have had to take over the branch to Ally Pally would not have incorporated using the original station. It would have involved branching off from their own Underground station and joining the original track where it runs alongside Highgate Wood. (Still today in Highgate Wood there is a demarcation fence separating the wood from the railway land) You're 'avin a laff. The track gradient would probably have to be about 45 degrees to get from highgate low level to the track before the palace branch! -- Spud |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 09:14:25 +0100, Robin9 wrote:
;162181 Wrote: In article , (Robin9) wrote: - With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.- It was a lot more than preparatory work. Have you ever looked at Highgate station? It was close to ready for trains to run. London Underground didn't take over the Ongar train service before 1957 but they had taken over the line long before then. -- Colin Rosenstiel I have been to Highgate Station several times. I'm wondering what you're seeing that I'm not. If one stands at the Priory Gardens entrance, the dilapidated remnants of the original station are clearly visible. Access to the Northern Line involves walking under them. Any plan London Underground might have had to take over the branch to Ally Pally would not have incorporated using the original station. It would have involved branching off from their own Underground station and joining the original track where it runs alongside Highgate Wood. (Still today in Highgate Wood there is a demarcation fence separating the wood from the railway land) The 1930s plan was for trains from Finsbury Park to run through Highgate high level platforms and then onto East Finchley or Ally Pally. The route from Archway doesn't surface until well past the turn off to Ally Pally. There is a map of the planned route at http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/highgate/ along with photos of the high level platforms showing the new platform buildings built in 1940/41. If you stood on the high level platforms around 25 years ago you could walk down the stairs and see into the back of some of the underground offices. |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
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Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
In article , (Someone
Somewhere) wrote: On 12/06/2017 01:25, wrote: In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 08:01:41 on Sun, 11 Jun 2017, remarked: some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s. Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those! Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead. I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys. In London? Are you mad??!! Even those of us who live in London, sometimes like to leave London and apparently places in the provincess aren't as well served by public transport. Sure, but what would the ringways have to do with that? They would only have sent you round and round not out. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
In article , d () wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 19:25:56 on Sun, 11 Jun 2017, remarked: some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s. Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those! Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead. I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys. In London? Are you mad??!! No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for. I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it! And certainly not ringways 1 & 2 which were within or close to the North & South Circulars. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
wrote:
In article , d () wrote: On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 19:25:56 on Sun, 11 Jun 2017, remarked: some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s. Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those! Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead. I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys. In London? Are you mad??!! No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for. I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it! And certainly not ringways 1 & 2 which were within or close to the North & South Circulars. If you lived in south London and wanted to head for the M1, they'd help you avoid central London. Similarly, I live in northwest London, well inside the M25, but still use it to get to the M23 and Gatwick, or the M11 and Stansted. Before it existed, I had to drive through London. |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
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Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
On 12.06.17 0:05, Recliner wrote:
wrote: On 11.06.17 21:03, Recliner wrote: wrote: On 11.06.17 10:28, Robin9 wrote: ;162178 Wrote: In article , (Robin9) wrote: - d;162167 Wrote: - On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100 Recliner wrote:- Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.- Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house prices stratospheric.- It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there. London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate and Barnet. Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.- That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957. -- Colin Rosenstiel With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954. Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today, in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954 attitudes and assumptions were quite different. Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim, AIUI, due to low passenger volumes. I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know that they are less than zero. Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc, thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands. The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards would be high Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it. Escalators? Gates? Oh, yes, absolutely. That all needs to go in and I am sure that they would have to do much work on the concourse, if not practically rebuild it from scratch. I was referring to the platform level. The spot is already there. Of course, you would have to build new platforms, redo the walls and ceilings and possible even relay the ROW. and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line. So, adjust the schedules. Slowing down everyone's journey is the problem, not the scefule. More trains? NT4L, perhaps? |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 18:49:33 +0100, "
wrote: On 12.06.17 0:05, Recliner wrote: wrote: On 11.06.17 21:03, Recliner wrote: wrote: On 11.06.17 10:28, Robin9 wrote: ;162178 Wrote: In article , (Robin9) wrote: - d;162167 Wrote: - On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100 Recliner wrote:- Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.- Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house prices stratospheric.- It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there. London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate and Barnet. Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.- That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957. -- Colin Rosenstiel With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954. Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today, in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954 attitudes and assumptions were quite different. Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim, AIUI, due to low passenger volumes. I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know that they are less than zero. Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc, thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands. The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards would be high Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it. Escalators? Gates? Oh, yes, absolutely. That all needs to go in and I am sure that they would have to do much work on the concourse, if not practically rebuild it from scratch. I was referring to the platform level. The spot is already there. Of course, you would have to build new platforms, redo the walls and ceilings and possible even relay the ROW. and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line. So, adjust the schedules. Slowing down everyone's journey is the problem, not the scefule. More trains? NT4L, perhaps? Or its successor, by the time the station is reopened. |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
On 12.06.17 20:17, Recliner wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 18:49:33 +0100, " wrote: On 12.06.17 0:05, Recliner wrote: wrote: On 11.06.17 21:03, Recliner wrote: wrote: On 11.06.17 10:28, Robin9 wrote: ;162178 Wrote: In article , (Robin9) wrote: - d;162167 Wrote: - On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100 Recliner wrote:- Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.- Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house prices stratospheric.- It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there. London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate and Barnet. Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.- That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957. -- Colin Rosenstiel With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954. Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today, in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954 attitudes and assumptions were quite different. Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim, AIUI, due to low passenger volumes. I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know that they are less than zero. Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc, thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands. The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards would be high Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it. Escalators? Gates? Oh, yes, absolutely. That all needs to go in and I am sure that they would have to do much work on the concourse, if not practically rebuild it from scratch. I was referring to the platform level. The spot is already there. Of course, you would have to build new platforms, redo the walls and ceilings and possible even relay the ROW. and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line. So, adjust the schedules. Slowing down everyone's journey is the problem, not the scefule. More trains? NT4L, perhaps? Or its successor, by the time the station is reopened. How much time would it take to rebuild and reactivate the station against the required time for public consultations, environmental impact and securing finance? |
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
wrote:
On 12.06.17 20:17, Recliner wrote: On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 18:49:33 +0100, " wrote: On 12.06.17 0:05, Recliner wrote: wrote: On 11.06.17 21:03, Recliner wrote: wrote: On 11.06.17 10:28, Robin9 wrote: ;162178 Wrote: In article , (Robin9) wrote: - d;162167 Wrote: - On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100 Recliner wrote:- Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.- Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house prices stratospheric.- It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there. London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate and Barnet. Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.- That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957. -- Colin Rosenstiel With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954. Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today, in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954 attitudes and assumptions were quite different. Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim, AIUI, due to low passenger volumes. I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know that they are less than zero. Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc, thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands. The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards would be high Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it. Escalators? Gates? Oh, yes, absolutely. That all needs to go in and I am sure that they would have to do much work on the concourse, if not practically rebuild it from scratch. I was referring to the platform level. The spot is already there. Of course, you would have to build new platforms, redo the walls and ceilings and possible even relay the ROW. and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line. So, adjust the schedules. Slowing down everyone's journey is the problem, not the scefule. More trains? NT4L, perhaps? Or its successor, by the time the station is reopened. How much time would it take to rebuild and reactivate the station against the required time for public consultations, environmental impact and securing finance? I suppose the actual physical construction work would take around three years or so, but this document is worth a read: http://www.lurs.org.uk/articles10_ht...ork%20road.pdf It concludes: Overall there would be very few extra journeys on the Underground resulting from the station opening, and those using the station would mostly be using it in place of bus travel. Two key problems would arise from the opening of the station: 1. It would slow the Piccadilly Line down ‘north’ of King’s Cross, i.e., reversing the original reason for closing the station. This section of line is already overcrowded in the peak hour, and adding an extra stop, more people, and more time to journeys would not help. 2. It would cause more interchange at King’s Cross Underground station, and increase congestion at the lower levels of this station. The small increase in overall revenue for TfL if the station was reopened would be outweighed by the two issues listed above combined with the annual operating costs (which is estimated at £620,000). It is therefore not surprising to find that the scheme has a very low benefit cost ratio (BCR) of 0.03 : 1 – in other words, for every pound spent, there is a benefit to society of just 3 pence. Calculations were also performed to look at less quantifiable aspects of reopening, such as the reduction in walking time to get to the Underground, the possibility that passenger numbers would be higher than estimated, and that congestion might not be caused at King’s Cross. In none of the cases did the BCR exceed 0.8 : 1. Typically TfL requires the BCR to be 1.5 : 1 to justify major projects. Overall, it is therefore very unlikely that York Road station will be reopening again, especially given the constraints on public spending at present. |
Quote:
Northern station. (Mind you, plans often change. The original plan for the Victoria Line was that it would start in Croydon and end up in Chingford) However, the line from Highgate Station around the north side of Highgate Wood was in a deep, deep cutting, which is probably why the fence is maintained in such good order. Climbing from the Underground Station to a convenient place in that cutting would have been manageable. |
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