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"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 16:29:39 on Tue, 8 Aug 2017, David Cantrell I was under the impression that petrol stations *had* to be manned when they were open. That was certainly the case when I was a spotty yoof and worked in one. If I needed to take a slash during my shift I had to turn everything off first. It's changed. I filled up at a Sainsburys *completely* unattended petrol station today. Card-only, but that's a different thread. https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/...Petrol_station Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the 2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the main store if assistance is required. At some sites, especially in very remote, rural areas filling stations are unattended at all times, requiring the user to pay by cash or card in advance of fuelling. Examples include Durness and Applecross in the Scottish Highlands. Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002 -- Mike D |
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"David Cantrell" wrote in message ... On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 11:54:11AM +0100, Roland Perry wrote: The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. I was under the impression that petrol stations *had* to be manned when they were open. That was certainly the case when I was a spotty yoof and worked in one. If I needed to take a slash during my shift I had to turn everything off first. there's a new supermarket station by me that manned 0x7 tim |
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On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100
"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the 2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the main store if assistance is required. Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the manned stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't have to go and endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you try to pay. -- Spud |
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On 01.08.2017 4:54 PM, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:40:31 on Tue, 1 Aug 2017, d remarked: The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no, talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue). So pay by card or cash, whats the problem? Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card. Fair enough. Tesco have their own bank The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin Bank. however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment. I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty card. Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it. Some time ago, I was involved in aquiring a company that managed a combined-loyalty-and-credit-card scheme; the credit card was issued by one of the US banks that heavily got involved in the UK market through its own brand but mainly through co-branding. Let's say "Mainly Branded but Not Always." It was one of those "the assets are worth more than the business" acquisitions, so the main job was to wind up the operations in the most orderly fashion possible. Which delighted me, when I discovered that the "IT integration" consisted of said US bank *emailing* the complete account information (card numbers, addresses, card activity etc.) once a week, as an Excel spreadsheet. Without so much as a password on the Excel to provide a figleaf of security... |
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On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 19:31:25 -0000 (UTC)
Clank wrote: It was one of those "the assets are worth more than the business" acquisitions, so the main job was to wind up the operations in the most orderly fashion possible. Which delighted me, when I discovered that the "IT integration" consisted of said US bank *emailing* the complete account information (card numbers, addresses, card activity etc.) once a week, as an Excel spreadsheet. Without so much as a password on the Excel to provide a figleaf of security... That sort of thing is completely unacceptable and something the FCA (or whichever body is now responsible for policing this sort of thing after that idiot Osborne dismantled the FSA) should look in to and possibly bring criminal charges. -- Spud |
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wrote in message ... On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100 "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the 2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the main store if assistance is required. Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the manned stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't have to go and endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you try to pay. Just come back from 2 weeks in France and pay at kiosk is definitely a minority sport there now. And evenings and Sundays, often an impossibility (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) tim |
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In article , (tim...)
wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (tim...) wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100 "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the 2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the main store if assistance is required. Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the manned stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't have to go and endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you try to pay. Just come back from 2 weeks in France and pay at kiosk is definitely a minority sport there now. And evenings and Sundays, often an impossibility (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit. I seem to have an inherent inability to remember more than 1 foreign language having (in chronological order) spent 2 years learning Italian, 6 years learning German and 1 year in Sweden since I left school, 40 years ago I have lost all ability that I had to communicate in French French, Portuguese and German in my case. My problem is recalling the vocabulary. Any overseas trip includes a crash course to catch up - French and German most recently. A cousin of my wife's got married. He's British and lives with his now wife and mother of their children, who is German, in Zurich, Switzerland. So naturally they celebrated their wedding in France! -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:07:01 -0500,
wrote: In article , (tim...) wrote: (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit. That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes). Richard. |
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In article ,
(Richard) wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:07:01 -0500, wrote: In article , (tim...) wrote: (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit. That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes). I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. I must say I do feel uncomfortable going to countries where I know nothing of the language to the point of not knowing which are the words for Ladies & Gents' loos and have only done it once, to Poland in 2002. I got away with English entirely except on one occasion, buying single train tickets from Krakow to Warsaw. I thought of trying German but decided it would be undiplomatic at least. Luckily the next person in the queue behind us was a student who did the necessary interpretation. The other exceptions are the Netherlands and Belgium. I've found that my German helps me pass the loo test (and which poster in a railway station lists Departures and which lists Arrivals) but having found how good Dutch and Flemish-speaking people are at English I was surprised in Gent a few years back how few prisoners they took linguistically. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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On 29.08.2017 2:50 AM, wrote:
In article , (Richard) wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:07:01 -0500, wrote: In article , (tim...) wrote: (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit. That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes). I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the least useful language to learn. Not so much because of the level of use, but rather because the native speakers would rather sniff haughtily than descend to the level of communicating with anyone less than perfectly fluent in it... I haven't quite forgotten all my French, but I don't recall a time I needed to use it in anger since I worked there 20 odd years ago (I rarely visit France, and while I do visit Brussels a fair bit English is a much safer language to use - speaking French to the wrong person will cause more offence than speaking English.) Learning Romanian has pushed most of the French vocabulary out of my head anyway... French as the default language in UK schools really is daft - Spanish would make more sense, or German. |
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In message , at 18:50:10
on Mon, 28 Aug 2017, remarked: I got away with English entirely except on one occasion, buying single train tickets from Krakow to Warsaw. I thought of trying German but decided it would be undiplomatic at least. A German man walks up to an immigration desk in Warsaw. Immigration officer: "Occupation?" German man: "No, just holiday." -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at 05:00:54 on Tue, 29 Aug
2017, Clank remarked: I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the least useful language to learn. Probably because it's the language of the diplomatic community, and of other educated professionals worldwide, and thus a throwback to when most people staying on at school long enough to be studying any languages at all, would have a plausible need for it. Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence. I agree that today Spanish is likely to be more useful for a tourist. But to make one's way in the world of business the language one really does need to be proficient in, is English as a Foreign Language - being able to speak with a simplified vocabulary that you adapt in real time to your audience, and an ear for strong accents. -- Roland Perry |
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wrote in message ... In article , (Richard) wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:07:01 -0500, wrote: In article , (tim...) wrote: (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit. That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes). I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. I must say I do feel uncomfortable going to countries where I know nothing of the language to the point of not knowing which are the words for Ladies & Gents' loos and have only done it once, to Poland in 2002. In Poland you don't need to know the words, you need to know if you are a circle or a triangle. My Polish colleagues where actually amazed to find that the rest of the world did not subscribe to this system. Fortunately most countries recognise the issue with toilets and revert to pictograms rather than words to identify them I got away with English entirely except on one occasion, buying single train tickets from Krakow to Warsaw. I always write this sort of stuff down "Krakow (big arrow) Warsaw, time and date of train" Of course that still leaves you with the DDMMYY MMDDYY problem :-( I thought of trying German but decided it would be undiplomatic at least. Luckily the next person in the queue behind us was a student who did the necessary interpretation. The other exceptions are the Netherlands and Belgium. I've found that my German helps me pass the loo test (and which poster in a railway station lists Departures and which lists Arrivals) This is a transport board so I expect people here would be able to work this out without actually needing any translation abilities (hint, the times shown at the "destination" on the departure board will be after the departure time, on the arrivals board they are earlier) but having found how good Dutch and Flemish-speaking people are at English I was surprised in Gent a few years back how few prisoners they took linguistically. yes it's embarrassing, isn't it tim |
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In article , (Clank)
wrote: On 29.08.2017 2:50 AM, wrote: I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the least useful language to learn. Not so much because of the level of use, but rather because the native speakers would rather sniff haughtily than descend to the level of communicating with anyone less than perfectly fluent in it... It's taught in school because France is our largest near neighbour and the single foreign country with which this country has interacted down the centuries. Young people like you have been spoilt by the ease of travel in recent times. Few people used to travel at all and many got no further than France in the days before cheap air travel. It's only 50 years ago after all. French was also the universally accepted international language and language of diplomacy until the Internet enabled (American) English to sweep all before it. As for your ludicrous claim about the attitude of the French to others speaking French, it is, in my experience, utter tosh. In any case it is nonsense to make such a generalisation about any population of over 100 million people worldwide. I haven't quite forgotten all my French, but I don't recall a time I needed to use it in anger since I worked there 20 odd years ago (I rarely visit France, and while I do visit Brussels a fair bit English is a much safer language to use - speaking French to the wrong person will cause more offence than speaking English.) That has got worse in Belgium in the last 30 years, I have to agree. Learning Romanian has pushed most of the French vocabulary out of my head anyway... I found that a bit with Portuguese but, apart from the general vocabulary recall issue, I find that Latin languages complement each other. I got Latin and Greek "O" Levels at school so I did learn proper grammar. French as the default language in UK schools really is daft - Spanish would make more sense, or German. A very holiday-oriented or American attitude if I may say so. I've never actually spent a holiday in Spain though I have done so in Portugal more than once. I find my mainly Brazilian Portuguese is more useful in handling Latin American Spanish. Both are simpler and more similar to each other than their European counterparts. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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wrote in message ... In article , (Clank) wrote: On 29.08.2017 2:50 AM, wrote: I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the least useful language to learn. Not so much because of the level of use, but rather because the native speakers would rather sniff haughtily than descend to the level of communicating with anyone less than perfectly fluent in it... It's taught in school because France is our largest near neighbour and the single foreign country with which this country has interacted down the centuries. Young people like you have been spoilt by the ease of travel in recent times. Few people used to travel at all and many got no further than France in the days before cheap air travel. It's only 50 years ago after all. French was also the universally accepted international language and language of diplomacy until the Internet enabled (American) English to sweep all before it. As for your ludicrous claim about the attitude of the French to others speaking French, it is, in my experience, utter tosh. In any case it is nonsense to make such a generalisation about any population of over 100 million people worldwide. I must say that, when visiting places, I was surprised how far it was into the conversation before I got "rumbled". It was only when they started on some complicated instructions for visiting that I had to ask them to converse in English :-( tim |
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On 29.08.2017 4:14 PM, wrote:
In article , (Clank) wrote: On 29.08.2017 2:50 AM, wrote: I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the least useful language to learn. Not so much because of the level of use, but rather because the native speakers would rather sniff haughtily than descend to the level of communicating with anyone less than perfectly fluent in it... It's taught in school because France is our largest near neighbour and the single foreign country with which this country has interacted down the centuries. Young people like you That's the nicest thing anyone said in a while. all. French was also the universally accepted international language and language of diplomacy until the Internet enabled (American) English to sweep all before it. This may be true, but it's most certainly not the international language of business*, and given the paucity of competent diplomats in the UK (currently being highlighted by the Brexit negotiations,) it is more than apparent that commerce is a more common career ambition than diplomacy. I'm not sure that usefulness in the court of Charlemagne is a valid basis for determining a 21st century school curriculum. * Hell,I worked in France a little over 20 years ago (young man that I am), for a Dutch multinational, with a working language of - you guessed it - English. French as the default language in UK schools really is daft - Spanish would make more sense, or German. A very holiday-oriented or American attitude if I may say so. Nonsense. I spend my holidays in places like central Russia, I've been on holiday to Spain exactly once in my life (although since I was visiting a business partner in his villa, maybe that counts as half a holiday.) But, I do have clients in Spanish speaking nations, and the total numbers certainly work in favour of Spanish over French. 100 million speakers (your number, a quick Google suggests actual native speakers is 75million but let's take 100) isn't very many at all, after all. I'm visiting a *small* Chinese city next week - with a population of roughly 1/10th of that, more or less none of whom speak French (barely any speak English, for that matter.) You're probably right that a more radical rethink might be required, and Mandarin+simplified Chinese probably ought to be the second language taught if we're being entirely practical (certainly would be far more useful to me than French.) But that might be a step too far, and I think Spanish or German provide a significantly better level of utility for both business and leisure than French. |
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In article , (tim...)
wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (Richard) wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:07:01 -0500, wrote: In article , (tim...) wrote: (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit. That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes). I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. I must say I do feel uncomfortable going to countries where I know nothing of the language to the point of not knowing which are the words for Ladies & Gents' loos and have only done it once, to Poland in 2002. In Poland you don't need to know the words, you need to know if you are a circle or a triangle. My Polish colleagues where actually amazed to find that the rest of the world did not subscribe to this system. Fortunately most countries recognise the issue with toilets and revert to pictograms rather than words to identify them I got away with English entirely except on one occasion, buying single train tickets from Krakow to Warsaw. I always write this sort of stuff down "Krakow (big arrow) Warsaw, time and date of train" Of course that still leaves you with the DDMMYY MMDDYY problem :-( In Poland? I thought of trying German but decided it would be undiplomatic at least. Luckily the next person in the queue behind us was a student who did the necessary interpretation. The other exceptions are the Netherlands and Belgium. I've found that my German helps me pass the loo test (and which poster in a railway station lists Departures and which lists Arrivals) This is a transport board so I expect people here would be able to work this out without actually needing any translation abilities (hint, the times shown at the "destination" on the departure board will be after the departure time, on the arrivals board they are earlier) Only the actual Arrival or Departure times were shown when I first met this problem, at Schipol Airport station too! but having found how good Dutch and Flemish-speaking people are at English I was surprised in Gent a few years back how few prisoners they took linguistically. yes it's embarrassing, isn't it We managed pretty well, I found. My wife has no foreign languages at all. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In article , (Clank)
wrote: On 29.08.2017 4:14 PM, wrote: In article , (Clank) wrote: On 29.08.2017 2:50 AM, wrote: I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the least useful language to learn. Not so much because of the level of use, but rather because the native speakers would rather sniff haughtily than descend to the level of communicating with anyone less than perfectly fluent in it... It's taught in school because France is our largest near neighbour and the single foreign country with which this country has interacted down the centuries. Young people like you That's the nicest thing anyone said in a while. :-) all. French was also the universally accepted international language and language of diplomacy until the Internet enabled (American) English to sweep all before it. This may be true, but it's most certainly not the international language of business*, and given the paucity of competent diplomats in the UK (currently being highlighted by the Brexit negotiations,) it is more than apparent that commerce is a more common career ambition than diplomacy. I'm not sure that usefulness in the court of Charlemagne is a valid basis for determining a 21st century school curriculum. It's a more recent basis than many other decisions on the school curriculum. * Hell,I worked in France a little over 20 years ago (young man that I am), for a Dutch multinational, with a working language of - you guessed it - English. If you mean Philips (for which I worked one way or another for most of 25 years) even they accepted that "Concern English" wasn't proper English. French as the default language in UK schools really is daft - Spanish would make more sense, or German. A very holiday-oriented or American attitude if I may say so. Nonsense. I spend my holidays in places like central Russia, I've been on holiday to Spain exactly once in my life (although since I was visiting a business partner in his villa, maybe that counts as half a holiday.) But, I do have clients in Spanish speaking nations, and the total numbers certainly work in favour of Spanish over French. 100 million speakers (your number, a quick Google suggests actual native speakers is 75million but let's take 100) isn't very many at all, after all. I'm visiting a *small* Chinese city next week - with a population of roughly 1/10th of that, more or less none of whom speak French (barely any speak English, for that matter.) 1. Anecdotes are not data. I doubt you (or I) are typical. 2. I was guessing the total world Francophone population which includes a lot of Africa as well as France and its possessions. "France Diplomatie" says 220 million "including 72 million so-called partial French speakers". That may be top whack but my 100 million looks very conservative. See "The status of French in the world - France Diplomatie". Other sources are available with figures up to 300 million. You're probably right that a more radical rethink might be required, and Mandarin+simplified Chinese probably ought to be the second language taught if we're being entirely practical (certainly would be far more useful to me than French.) But that might be a step too far, and I think Spanish or German provide a significantly better level of utility for both business and leisure than French. When I was at school we used to says "optimists learn Russian, pessimists Chinese". My father regarded German as a dead language (he was a native speaker). Times have changed though. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:12:30 +0200, "tim..."
wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100 "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the 2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the main store if assistance is required. Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the manned stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't have to go and endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you try to pay. Just come back from 2 weeks in France and pay at kiosk is definitely a minority sport there now. And evenings and Sundays, often an impossibility (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) tim But visiting Nordic countries as an English speaker is embarrassing anyway. It seems like everyone speaks English (and their dogs likely bark in EE). Icelanders are really concerned about the threat to their language... and any attempt to use Icelandic, even simple stuff as in "takk fyrir", will be greeted with huge grins and approval. |
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wrote in message ... In article , (tim...) wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (Richard) wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:07:01 -0500, wrote: In article , (tim...) wrote: (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit. That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes). I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. I must say I do feel uncomfortable going to countries where I know nothing of the language to the point of not knowing which are the words for Ladies & Gents' loos and have only done it once, to Poland in 2002. In Poland you don't need to know the words, you need to know if you are a circle or a triangle. My Polish colleagues where actually amazed to find that the rest of the world did not subscribe to this system. Fortunately most countries recognise the issue with toilets and revert to pictograms rather than words to identify them I got away with English entirely except on one occasion, buying single train tickets from Krakow to Warsaw. I always write this sort of stuff down "Krakow (big arrow) Warsaw, time and date of train" Of course that still leaves you with the DDMMYY MMDDYY problem :-( In Poland? not normally no but a "clever" ticket seller might think "this person is American, they have written the date down in American format" and then you have to explain to them that you haven't I have had that sort of thing happen to me elsewhere I thought of trying German but decided it would be undiplomatic at least. Luckily the next person in the queue behind us was a student who did the necessary interpretation. The other exceptions are the Netherlands and Belgium. I've found that my German helps me pass the loo test (and which poster in a railway station lists Departures and which lists Arrivals) This is a transport board so I expect people here would be able to work this out without actually needing any translation abilities (hint, the times shown at the "destination" on the departure board will be after the departure time, on the arrivals board they are earlier) Only the actual Arrival or Departure times were shown when I first met this problem, at Schipol Airport station too! but having found how good Dutch and Flemish-speaking people are at English I was surprised in Gent a few years back how few prisoners they took linguistically. yes it's embarrassing, isn't it We managed pretty well, I found. My wife has no foreign languages at all. I managed all over the world with sign language as required tim |
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"Nobody" wrote in message ... On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:12:30 +0200, "tim..." wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100 "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the 2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the main store if assistance is required. Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the manned stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't have to go and endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you try to pay. Just come back from 2 weeks in France and pay at kiosk is definitely a minority sport there now. And evenings and Sundays, often an impossibility (fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings) tim But visiting Nordic countries as an English speaker is embarrassing anyway. It seems like everyone speaks English (and their dogs likely bark in EE). It does, doesn't it but a straw poll of asking random people who have just stopped at the same middle of nowhere (by our standards) petrol station shows that it isn't true tim |
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 17:19:24 +0200
"tim..." wrote: wrote in message m... I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit. I seem to have an inherent inability to remember more than 1 foreign language having (in chronological order) spent 2 years learning Italian, 6 years learning German and 1 year in Sweden since I left school, 40 years ago I have lost all ability that I had to communicate in French As someone who can get by in French I always found written Italian similar enough to understand at least some of it (spoken italian is another matter, I can barely understand a word) so I'm surprised the reverse isn't true. -- Spud |
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wrote in message ... In article , d () wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 17:19:24 +0200 "tim..." wrote: wrote in message m... I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit. I seem to have an inherent inability to remember more than 1 foreign language having (in chronological order) spent 2 years learning Italian, 6 years learning German and 1 year in Sweden since I left school, 40 years ago I have lost all ability that I had to communicate in French As someone who can get by in French I always found written Italian similar enough to understand at least some of it (spoken italian is another matter, I can barely understand a word) so I'm surprised the reverse isn't true. Indeed It is even more so, both written and spoken, with Italian and Portuguese (and for all I know Spanish). One just has to know the different spelling reforms and go by the sounds. Italian and Spanish are much closer than Italian and French I have never studied Spanish at all, yet I can read it almost as well as I can German (which you will recall I banged my head against a wall for 6 years trying to learn) tim |
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On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 05:00:54AM -0000, Clank wrote:
On 29.08.2017 2:50 AM, wrote: I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the least useful language to learn. Nah. That would be Welsh. The problem I have with French is that it's too similar to Italian, to the extent that they're so close together in my head that I'll often switch languages half way through a sentence. -- David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world There are many different types of sausages. The best are from the north of England. The wurst are from Germany. -- seen in alt.2eggs... |
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"David Cantrell" wrote in message k... On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 05:00:54AM -0000, Clank wrote: On 29.08.2017 2:50 AM, wrote: I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the least useful language to learn. Nah. That would be Welsh. No, that would be Scottish Gaelic - 57,000 speak this - it is not (apparently) interchangeable with Irish Gaelic (the numbers for which are inflated by people who were forced to learn it at school but have never spoken it in real life - on that basis I speak French, be we have already established that I don't) Welsh has half a million speakers tim |
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On 30/08/2017 14:57, tim... wrote:
"David Cantrell" wrote in message k... It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the Â*least useful language to learn. Nah. That would be Welsh. Welsh has half a million speakers But how many don't speak reasonable conversational English and how many people who are not from Wales speak any at all? Whilst I accept the cultural reasoning for trying to keep the language alive the Welsh government take it far too far given the more useful ways they could spend their money (and open up a larger pool of competent staff to employ). The proliferation of Welsh language schools also remains a complete mystery to me - are people that scared of the Severn Bridge? Oh - and yes, I am born and bred Welsh and probably one of the few who has visited Patagonia. |
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On 29.08.2017 11:52 PM, wrote:
In article , (Clank) wrote: On 29.08.2017 4:14 PM, wrote: In article , (Clank) wrote: On 29.08.2017 2:50 AM, wrote: I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school. It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the least useful language to learn. Not so much because of the level of use, but rather because the native speakers would rather sniff haughtily than descend to the level of communicating with anyone less than perfectly fluent in it... It's taught in school because France is our largest near neighbour and the single foreign country with which this country has interacted down the centuries. Young people like you That's the nicest thing anyone said in a while. :-) all. French was also the universally accepted international language and language of diplomacy until the Internet enabled (American) English to sweep all before it. This may be true, but it's most certainly not the international language of business*, and given the paucity of competent diplomats in the UK (currently being highlighted by the Brexit negotiations,) it is more than apparent that commerce is a more common career ambition than diplomacy. I'm not sure that usefulness in the court of Charlemagne is a valid basis for determining a 21st century school curriculum. It's a more recent basis than many other decisions on the school curriculum. * Hell,I worked in France a little over 20 years ago (young man that I am), for a Dutch multinational, with a working language of - you guessed it - English. If you mean Philips (for which I worked one way or another for most of 25 years) even they accepted that "Concern English" wasn't proper English. French as the default language in UK schools really is daft - Spanish would make more sense, or German. A very holiday-oriented or American attitude if I may say so. Nonsense. I spend my holidays in places like central Russia, I've been on holiday to Spain exactly once in my life (although since I was visiting a business partner in his villa, maybe that counts as half a holiday.) But, I do have clients in Spanish speaking nations, and the total numbers certainly work in favour of Spanish over French. 100 million speakers (your number, a quick Google suggests actual native speakers is 75million but let's take 100) isn't very many at all, after all. I'm visiting a *small* Chinese city next week - with a population of roughly 1/10th of that, more or less none of whom speak French (barely any speak English, for that matter.) 1. Anecdotes are not data. I doubt you (or I) are typical. When it's my attitude you're talking about, anecdotes *are* data. I was pointing out that you should not be so presumptuous (or in other words - no, you may not say so.) 2. I was guessing the total world Francophone population which includes a lot of Africa as well as France and its possessions. "France Diplomatie" says 220 million "including 72 million so-called partial French speakers". That may be top whack but my 100 million looks very conservative. See "The status of French in the world - France Diplomatie". Other sources are available with figures up to 300 million. Indeed, I read that site - to say it clutches at straws rather is an understatement. "France is an official language of the International Olympic Committee!" I'm surprised they didn't mention Eurovision (maybe they did and I forgot.) One is tempted to presume that anyone who ever uttered a phrase like "noblesse oblige" immediately gets counted in their "partial French speakers" category. You're probably right that a more radical rethink might be required, and Mandarin+simplified Chinese probably ought to be the second language taught if we're being entirely practical (certainly would be far more useful to me than French.) But that might be a step too far, and I think Spanish or German provide a significantly better level of utility for both business and leisure than French. When I was at school we used to says "optimists learn Russian, pessimists Chinese". I attempted to learn Russian when I was at uni, so guess that makes me an optimist. I say attempted - I can at least read Cyrillic (and that gets you a surprisingly long way, there's plenty of common vocabulary between English and Romanian, enough that I find getting around in Russia and Ukraine no problem) and speak a little. My father regarded German as a dead language (he was a native speaker). Times have changed though. I have a good friend who speaks excellent German. We always reckoned that between our English, his German and my Russian we could probably make ourselves understood almost anywhere in Europe. At the expense of being able to also offend people almost anywhere in Europe ;-). |
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On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: [French because...] Probably because it's the language of the diplomatic community, and of other educated professionals worldwide, and thus a throwback to when most people staying on at school long enough to be studying any languages at all, would have a plausible need for it. There is something about that language that I love, although it could be entirely conditioning and early access to it. Languages - any - are IMO a good thing whether useful or not. Learning for personal development and pleasure, if languages are your thing, of course. Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence. I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s), to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned. I suppose cable helped there. I agree that today Spanish is likely to be more useful for a tourist. But to make one's way in the world of business the language one really does need to be proficient in, is English as a Foreign Language - being able to speak with a simplified vocabulary that you adapt in real time to your audience, and an ear for strong accents. That's very true. The ability to adjust to the other person's accent and apparent % comprehension without losing the plot or sounding patronising is a real skill. Richard. |
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On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 08:22:24PM +0100, Richard wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence. I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s), to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned. I suppose cable helped there. No, really we shouldn't. No-one should have to suffer Welsh language broadcasting. -- David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice We found no search results for "crotchet". Did you mean "crotch"? |
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On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 09:27:43PM +0100, Arthur Figgis wrote:
The people who smugly declare how uniquely evil the English are for not speaking every known foreign language (often combined with a sneer at those people who were so ignorant that they did A Level maths and science at school, and therefore can be assumed to be barely capable of walking upright, never mind knowing the gender of a fromage sandwich), ... I have a special kind of sneering for those people. Oh, you only speak Indo-European languages? I'm so sorry. -- David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice You know you're getting old when you fancy the teenager's parent and ignore the teenager -- Paul M in uknot |
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On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 16:25:55 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote: On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 08:22:24PM +0100, Richard wrote: On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence. I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s), to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned. I suppose cable helped there. No, really we shouldn't. No-one should have to suffer Welsh language broadcasting. That's a bit narrow-minded.... no, absolutely pig-headed. I would be imaginatively surprised should you prove that you do not have access to/service from public broadcasting (let alone commercial) outlets in Your Language. So why would you be 'forced' to tune/view programming in Welsh? Your choice is to ignore it. But inclusion and interest in others wouldn't go amiss. |
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On Mon, Sep 04, 2017 at 06:06:13PM -0700, Nobody wrote:
On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 16:25:55 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 08:22:24PM +0100, Richard wrote: On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence. I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s), to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned. I suppose cable helped there. No, really we shouldn't. No-one should have to suffer Welsh language broadcasting. That's a bit narrow-minded.... no, absolutely pig-headed. I would be imaginatively surprised should you prove that you do not have access to/service from public broadcasting (let alone commercial) outlets in Your Language. So why would you be 'forced' to tune/view programming in Welsh? Your choice is to ignore it. I didn't have that choice when I was made to learn Welsh at school. -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic Arbeit macht Alkoholiker |
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On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 16:04:18 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote: On Mon, Sep 04, 2017 at 06:06:13PM -0700, Nobody wrote: On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 16:25:55 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 08:22:24PM +0100, Richard wrote: On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence. I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s), to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned. I suppose cable helped there. No, really we shouldn't. No-one should have to suffer Welsh language broadcasting. That's a bit narrow-minded.... no, absolutely pig-headed. I would be imaginatively surprised should you prove that you do not have access to/service from public broadcasting (let alone commercial) outlets in Your Language. So why would you be 'forced' to tune/view programming in Welsh? Your choice is to ignore it. I didn't have that choice when I was made to learn Welsh at school. But your original comment was, "No-one should have to suffer Welsh language BROADCASTING." No mention of schooling in that comment that I can ascertain. Lurning (deliberate) another language, or even being exposed to other languages, 'should' enhance how you appreciate/understand your native tongue. It really is interesting, and most of all, fun... as in "meeting people". |
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On 06/09/2017 01:35, Nobody wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 16:04:18 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: I didn't have that choice when I was made to learn Welsh at school. Lurning (deliberate) another language, or even being exposed to other languages, 'should' enhance how you appreciate/understand your native tongue. It really is interesting, and most of all, fun... as in "meeting people". And I refer you to my previously made point that there are barely any Welsh people who are not competently conversant in English and hence the opportunity for meeting one is limited to say the least. Learning other languages does have benefits, I don't deny that, but at least make it something useful like Spanish (try travelling in South America without any), Chinese, French (across the channel, some of CALA, some of Africa) etc. |
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On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 11:09:11 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote: On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 05:35:37PM -0700, Nobody wrote: On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 16:04:18 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: I didn't have that choice when I was made to learn Welsh at school. But your original comment was, "No-one should have to suffer Welsh language BROADCASTING." No mention of schooling in that comment that I can ascertain. Perhaps you've never learned a second language, but my experience of learning five of 'em has been that lessons generally include exposure to media in that language. Including broadcasts (usually but not always recorded). Again, I point out your bald statement, "No-one should have to suffer Welsh language broadcasting." How you were exposed to the sounds of the how-many languages you have been taught is irrelevant. You posted an assessment of a legitimate service wherein the alternate tuning of your radio or TV receivers would provide you with language access of your choice. I was 'taught' two languages other than my native English... learned might be pushing the definition.. but I also was involved for several decades with multi-lingual broadcasting aimed at minority language groups. |
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