Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 13:31:24 on Wed, 30 Aug
2017, d remarked:

From the back office database. Don't they already access that when
checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.

Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.

I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then
foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card
is from a
valid bank and account type.

The first time it's used, probably nothing to stop it. Once the charge
"bounces", overnight, it'll probably be added to a local-to-TfL
block-list.

I suppose for TfL the most they can lose is the daily capped fare, but if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.

Which is why every informed commentary on the likelihood of a National
Rail contactless post-pay scheme says it's a pipe dream.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 16:00:29 on Wed, 30 Aug
2017, Someone Somewhere remarked:
if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.

Isnt't the max for contactless £40, hence that has to be the limit of
liability.

The trader can voluntarily, at their risk, accept them for a greater
sum.

Not very likely though in a National Rail context.

And that's before we've looked at the complexity of national roll-out of
the equivalent of pink route validators, and checking if the traveller
sat in First or Standard,
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 16:00:29 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 30/08/2017 14:31, d wrote:
if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys
someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.

Isnt't the max for contactless £40, hence that has to be the limit of
liability.

It seems to go up all the time.

--
Spud

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 15:14:27 on Wed, 30 Aug
2017, d remarked:

Isnt't the max for contactless £40, hence that has to be the limit of
liability.

It seems to go up all the time.

I'm not aware it's increased above £30, a limit set in Sept 2015.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

The first time a contactless card is used each day, a charge of 10p is made. If this is declined, the card is placed on the deny list almost immediately. Code 49 will then appear on the display when an exit gate or validator is used.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 12:18:59 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a
valid bank and account type.

The first time it's used, probably nothing to stop it. Once the charge
"bounces", overnight, it'll probably be added to a local-to-TfL
block-list.

" When you touch in at the start of a journey, the card issuer takes a
nominal charge when authorising the transaction. Depending on the
issuer, this could be for £0.00, £0.01 or £0.10. Actual fares are not
charged until the daily charge is calculated at the end of the day. "

From
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...uer-statements

--
jhk

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 00:28:51 on
Fri, 1 Sep 2017, Jarle Hammen Knudsen remarked:
I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a
valid bank and account type.

The first time it's used, probably nothing to stop it. Once the charge
"bounces", overnight, it'll probably be added to a local-to-TfL
block-list.

" When you touch in at the start of a journey, the card issuer takes a
nominal charge when authorising the transaction. Depending on the
issuer, this could be for £0.00, £0.01 or £0.10. Actual fares are not
charged until the daily charge is calculated at the end of the day. "

I didn't realise all the buses were online, but then sometimes progress
does creep up on us!
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

They are not quite real time online, but the Deny list is propagated within a few minutes to the bus ticket machines.

Pick up of online top ups on buses is planned within the next few months.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On 01/09/2017 09:33, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
They are not quite real time online, but the Deny list is propagated within a few minutes to the bus ticket machines.


Sounds pretty much like the architecture I described then!

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at
01:33:46 on Fri, 1 Sep 2017, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
They are not quite real time online, but the Deny list is propagated
within a few minutes to the bus ticket machines.

But do they make a card charge from the bus also "within minutes"?
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 11:20:33 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 01/09/2017 09:33, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
They are not quite real time online, but the Deny list is propagated within
a few minutes to the bus ticket machines.


Sounds pretty much like the architecture I described then!

I wonder if an alert goes off if a denied card has been used recently and
the person could still be on the bus. Or whether for 1.50 its not worth the
hassle of calling the police.

--
Spud

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In article , wrote:
I wonder if an alert goes off if a denied card has been used recently and
the person could still be on the bus. Or whether for 1.50 its not worth the
hassle of calling the police.

What are they going to do -- stop the bus and frisk everyone until
they find the wicked card? At whicn point the holder will (quite
possibly truthfully) say, oh, sorry, I meant to use my other card.

There's a reason that transit systems increasingly use proof of
payment rather than gates.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On 2017-09-01 12:23:05 +0000, John Levine said:

There's a reason that transit systems increasingly use proof of
payment rather than gates.

Er, do they? European countries seem increasingly to be adding gates
to allow CPCs to be used.

It's only a matter of time before a CPC authorisation will be possible
in a fraction of a second.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 12:23:05 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine wrote:
In article , wrote:
I wonder if an alert goes off if a denied card has been used recently and
the person could still be on the bus. Or whether for 1.50 its not worth the
hassle of calling the police.

What are they going to do -- stop the bus and frisk everyone until
they find the wicked card? At whicn point the holder will (quite
possibly truthfully) say, oh, sorry, I meant to use my other card.

Buses have CCTV. They can match the bad card with the person quite easily.
And what if the card was stolen in a robbery? I imagine the police would be
quite happy to nick the person.

--
Spud

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

The 10p charge is authorised, or not within minutes.

It is then collated with all other touches during the day, and an amount is calculated with regard to capping that is debited the next day.

If the card has been placed on the Deny list, it will remain there until the outstanding fare for the card has been paid on the web page.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On 01.09.2017 3:39 PM, Neil Williams wrote:
On 2017-09-01 12:23:05 +0000, John Levine said:

There's a reason that transit systems increasingly use proof of
payment rather than gates.

Er, do they? European countries seem increasingly to be adding gates
to allow CPCs to be used.

It's only a matter of time before a CPC authorisation will be possible
in a fraction of a second.

Here in Buc we now (finally) have Contactless on all the Metrou gates (until
this year it was one or two of the old gates at each station with a
somewhat botched-on card reader, but now all the gatelines seem to have
been replaced with shiny new ones.) On the other hand, they replace (well,
supplement really) the old-school cardboard carnet style tickets with a
little dot-matrix printer that prints your remaining journeys on the ticket
each time you check in (in case anyone thinks this is uniquely backward,
I'm pretty sure NY had the same type last time I was there, although it was
a while ago), so contactless is no slower. The sort of throughputs that
(say) Victoria tube station requires are not the norm internationally.

Anyway, this still doesn't assume it's pay-later. In Bucharest the
communications infrastructure is top notch (my home broadband is 350Mb/s
actual achieved speed for 10eur/month - I could have 1Gb/s for about two
euro more) so all card transactions are authorised online. That's one
reason we have no limit for contactless transactions. (Here we implement
the Contactless+PIN part of the EMV standard that the UK ignores, because
the PIN is always validated online and not by the card chip.)

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

Barclays use online PIN for their app which is their alternative to Android Pay.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 15:14:27 on Wed, 30 Aug 2017,
d remarked:

Isnt't the max for contactless £40, hence that has to be the limit of
liability.

It seems to go up all the time.

I'm not aware it's increased above £30, a limit set in Sept 2015.

1) it's hasn't

2) was it really that long ago :-)

tim

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

wrote in message ...
On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 12:23:05 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine wrote:
In article , wrote:
I wonder if an alert goes off if a denied card has been used recently and
the person could still be on the bus. Or whether for 1.50 its not worth
the
hassle of calling the police.

What are they going to do -- stop the bus and frisk everyone until
they find the wicked card? At whicn point the holder will (quite
possibly truthfully) say, oh, sorry, I meant to use my other card.

Buses have CCTV. They can match the bad card with the person quite easily.
And what if the card was stolen in a robbery? I imagine the police would
be
quite happy to nick the person.

yes but,

getting on a bus and using a card linked to an account which you didn't
realise was overdrawn is not, in anyone's world, going to be a criminal
offence

It a transport operator wants to deny travel to this type of customer, they
have to do just that "deny travel at point of entry", not attempt to
prosecute the pax with a non-existent law after you have let them travel.

tim