Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

Does ATOC even exist any more? Wasn't it replaced by the RDG?

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Monday, 7 August 2017 18:43:34 UTC+1, wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

Since when can Rail Delivery Group dictate how TfL establish their own ticketing technology? It was up to the TOCs as to whether they accepted the use of Contactless technology on their services in Greater London. If you recall they initially refused. I can only assume they expected to repeat their trick of not accepting Oyster and waiting for the Mayor to deposit a wheelbarrow of money on their doorsteps. Unfortunately this time there were no wheelbarrows of cash just a load of very predictable (and probably partly orchestrated) criticism in the London media and from a range of London politicians. After suffering a barrage of negative publicity and social media commentary they changed their minds.

There is a very practical issue that there is absolutely no way to verify a railcard holder is in possession of any given contactless payment card (CPC). The discount also cannot be set in the chip on any CPC. With Oyster the discount can be set at a station and on the Oyster card. I suspect the banks do not want any TfL staff having to handle bank cards in respect of online accounts or discounts. In the event of any payment issues people are directed to their banks and not TfL. I do understand your complaint but this is a difficult area to resolve when you place the "travel medium" in the hands of a third party as TfL have opted to do with contactless. The non existence of ticket offices also creates a further issue not that they (AFAIK) had direct access into the customer Oyster card database. All that ever happened were transactions that were later verified and consolidated against customer accounts (where they exist).

I wonder whether railcard discounts are available for mobile ticketing or the various TOC specific smartcard schemes that exist? I've not specifically checked but I am sceptical that RDG have ensured railcard acceptance even on rail industry only smart / mobile technology like the Key. If they can't manage their own affairs then it's a stretch to expect them to force TfL to do anything when TfL is under no obligation to accept railcards anyway. The offer of discounted PAYG fares for Railcard holders on TfL services is a fairly recent and generous concession which was never part of the scheme in the days of magnetic or paper ticketing (except ODTCs and a few specific flows where LU sold tickets on NR routes).

--
Paul C
via Google

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Monday, 7 August 2017 18:43:34 UTC+1,
wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail
route in London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised
and discounts given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster
cards was somewhat haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't
check railcard registration status at a ticket machine. It was only
when they decided to close all the ticket offices that they had to
make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors
contactless became a much better option when introduced unless you
are a railcard holder because, although Oyster cards have to be
registered to get railcard discounts, they have not enabled
railcard discounts against Contactless travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using
contactless. My question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to
go completely against their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

Since when can Rail Delivery Group dictate how TfL establish their
own ticketing technology? It was up to the TOCs as to whether they
accepted the use of Contactless technology on their services in
Greater London. If you recall they initially refused. I can only
assume they expected to repeat their trick of not accepting Oyster
and waiting for the Mayor to deposit a wheelbarrow of money on their
doorsteps. Unfortunately this time there were no wheelbarrows of
cash just a load of very predictable (and probably partly
orchestrated) criticism in the London media and from a range of
London politicians. After suffering a barrage of negative publicity
and social media commentary they changed their minds.

So that's how it happened then. Thanks.

There is a very practical issue that there is absolutely no way to
verify a railcard holder is in possession of any given contactless
payment card (CPC). The discount also cannot be set in the chip on
any CPC. With Oyster the discount can be set at a station and on the
Oyster card. I suspect the banks do not want any TfL staff having to
handle bank cards in respect of online accounts or discounts. In the
event of any payment issues people are directed to their banks and
not TfL. I do understand your complaint but this is a difficult area
to resolve when you place the "travel medium" in the hands of a third
party as TfL have opted to do with contactless. The non existence of
ticket offices also creates a further issue not that they (AFAIK) had
direct access into the customer Oyster card database. All that ever
happened were transactions that were later verified and consolidated
against customer accounts (where they exist).

It's the same as for Oyster but the flag would be placed on the Oyster
account instead of on the individual card. The railcard holder still has to
present the railcard to LUL for them to place the flag on (actually a card
number and expiry date rather than a simple flag as with Oyster cards). I
can see that might not be so simple if all that is available to staff is a
ticket machine but in these tablet-infested days they should have a way.The
point of Contactless (and Oyster in the future) is that all the transactions
take place in the back office, as you well know.

I wonder whether railcard discounts are available for mobile
ticketing or the various TOC specific smartcard schemes that exist?
I've not specifically checked but I am sceptical that RDG have
ensured railcard acceptance even on rail industry only smart / mobile
technology like the Key.

Railcard discounts are given on Greater Anglia m-Tickets which I use
regularly. Very handy they are too if I'm going to Liverpool St or Tottenham
Hale. Greater Anglia use the Masabi app also used by Virgin Trains.

If they can't manage their own affairs then
it's a stretch to expect them to force TfL to do anything when TfL is
under no obligation to accept railcards anyway. The offer of
discounted PAYG fares for Railcard holders on TfL services is a
fairly recent and generous concession which was never part of the
scheme in the days of magnetic or paper ticketing (except ODTCs and a
few specific flows where LU sold tickets on NR routes).

They had to force the pace because railcard discounts were available on NR
routes within London where the Mayor wanted Oyster accepted. For example the
change saved me money on Vauxhall-Putney single journeys, I recall. As so
often happens, South London is being forgotten.

I can't speak for The Key because, despite their trains taking and bringing
most of Cambridge's 11 million passengers annually, GTR don't allow The Key
to be used here. What was the point of a standard (ITSO) if different cards
can't use other TOCs' gatelines and other systems?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 19:00:35
on Mon, 7 Aug 2017, remarked:

I can't speak for The Key because, despite their trains taking and bringing
most of Cambridge's 11 million passengers annually, GTR don't allow The Key
to be used here.

Although it was in their list of post-franchise promises.

What was the point of a standard (ITSO) if different cards
can't use other TOCs' gatelines and other systems?

There's something very wrong with the way ITSO has been rolled out.

The interoperability is essentially zero - even between different bits
of Stagecoach for example (I have three of their cards - EMT, SWT and
"Cambus"). I've also got three different "The Keys", but haven't tested
their interoperability because basically I don't have anywhere I travel
where any of them would be accepted as a ticket[1].

The deadlock at Cambridge, however, must be Abellio's fault, because
they operate the station and are the ones presumably refusing to update
their gates to accept (and communicate back to GTR) The Key swipes.

[1] Although one day I must try them all at a GTR ticket machine and see
what it says. In another priceless bit of interoperability-NOT their
website claims such machines are only located *outside* the
Travelcard area. It's bonkers that this can't be done at Kings Cross
(apparently).
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

[1] Although one day I must try them all at a GTR ticket machine and see
what it says. In another priceless bit of interoperability-NOT their
website claims such machines are only located *outside* the
Travelcard area. It's bonkers that this can't be done at Kings Cross
(apparently).

It seems GTR has no ticketing presence at King's Cross. I was directed to
the SPILL Thameslink ticket office.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 07:12:06
on Tue, 8 Aug 2017, remarked:
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

[1] Although one day I must try them all at a GTR ticket machine and see
what it says. In another priceless bit of interoperability-NOT their
website claims such machines are only located *outside* the
Travelcard area. It's bonkers that this can't be done at Kings Cross
(apparently).

It seems GTR has no ticketing presence at King's Cross. I was directed to
the SPILL Thameslink ticket office.

But that's still within the Travelcard area.

Pre-refurb there was a WAGN/FCC ticket office roughly where the
"Platform 9 and 3/4" tourist trap is.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
07:12:06 on Tue, 8 Aug 2017, remarked:
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

[1] Although one day I must try them all at a GTR ticket machine and
see what it says. In another priceless bit of interoperability-NOT
their website claims such machines are only located *outside* the
Travelcard area. It's bonkers that this can't be done at Kings
Cross (apparently).

It seems GTR has no ticketing presence at King's Cross. I was directed to
the SPILL Thameslink ticket office.

But that's still within the Travelcard area.

But not at King's Cross, as was my point.

Pre-refurb there was a WAGN/FCC ticket office roughly where the
"Platform 9 and 3/4" tourist trap is.

That was then. Now is now.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 19:42:39
on Tue, 8 Aug 2017, remarked:

[1] Although one day I must try them all at a GTR ticket machine and
see what it says. In another priceless bit of interoperability-NOT
their website claims such machines are only located *outside* the
Travelcard area. It's bonkers that this can't be done at Kings
Cross (apparently).

It seems GTR has no ticketing presence at King's Cross. I was directed to
the SPILL Thameslink ticket office.

But that's still within the Travelcard area.

But not at King's Cross, as was my point.

That particular hundred yards is not my issue - the dozen or more miles
to the first GN station beyond BZ6 *is*.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 01:00:38 UTC+1, wrote:

It's the same as for Oyster but the flag would be placed on the Oyster
account instead of on the individual card. The railcard holder still has to
present the railcard to LUL for them to place the flag on (actually a card
number and expiry date rather than a simple flag as with Oyster cards). I
can see that might not be so simple if all that is available to staff is a
ticket machine but in these tablet-infested days they should have a way.The point of Contactless (and Oyster in the future) is that all the transactions take place in the back office, as you well know.

I know that is a theoretical possibility but take a step back as to how online accountd work. The card holder logs on and sets up the account themselves. If they wish to add bank card details to their account to give access to extra information facilities if they use their bank card for travel then that is their choice entirely. TfL hold the data but never enter it or change it.

How on earth does an LU employee verify a railcard and then enter the details to a customer account? This would require the customer to either access a LU computer or for a ticket machine to be reconfigured to access the customer account database. Alternatively the customer would have to disclose log on facilities and bank card numbers to a LU employee. That's against all good practice for secure online accounts and control of your bank details. The only other choice is to allow people to enter railcard details against their account without verification. This is just inviting fraud.

There may be some combination of controls and facilities that I am missing but it's not exactly straightforward. TfL are also keen to remove as many transactions from stations as possible so adding more of them is contrary to the general policy direction.

I suppose the new generation of app based railcards could be made to "talk" to the upcoming Oyster app to give some form of verification but that doesn't give a universal service option for all railcard holders whether they own a smartphone or not.

I'm not saying it isn't desirable just that I can immediately see fraud and control issues without verification of identity and entitlement at some point in the process. TfL may take the view that they can live with the fraud risk but given how tight finances are these days I can't quite see that happening. Having an open fraud opporunity also fails the TfL Internal Audit test and also an external political test.

--
Paul C
via Google

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at
09:37:21 on Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Paul Corfield remarked:

How on earth does an LU employee verify a railcard and then enter the details to a customer account? This would require the customer to either
access a LU computer or for a ticket machine to be reconfigured to access the customer account database. Alternatively the customer would have
to disclose log on facilities and bank card numbers to a LU employee. That's against all good practice for secure online accounts and control
of your bank details. The only other choice is to allow people to enter railcard details against their account without verification. This is
just inviting fraud.

There may be some combination of controls and facilities that I am missing but it's not exactly straightforward.

What a rather mardy bloke grudgingly did for me at Kings Cross the other
week: take a combination of my Oyster, Railcard, and photo-licence to
add the 2nd to the 1st. Exactly the same would be just as good for
adding a railcard to a contactless credit card.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 18:48:26 on Wed, 9 Aug
2017, Roland Perry remarked:
How on earth does an LU employee verify a railcard and then enter the details to a customer account? This would require the customer to
either
access a LU computer or for a ticket machine to be reconfigured to access the customer account database. Alternatively the customer would have
to disclose log on facilities and bank card numbers to a LU employee. That's against all good practice for secure online accounts and control
of your bank details. The only other choice is to allow people to enter railcard details against their account without verification. This
is
just inviting fraud.

There may be some combination of controls and facilities that I am missing but it's not exactly straightforward.

What a rather mardy bloke grudgingly did for me at Kings Cross the
other week: take a combination of my Oyster, Railcard, and
photo-licence to add the 2nd to the 1st. Exactly the same would be just
as good for adding a railcard to a contactless credit card.

Even better would be for the Railcard to be added automatically if you
purchased it with a card. Nah, that's far too simple.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 09:37:21 -0700 (PDT), Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 01:00:38 UTC+1, wrote:

It's the same as for Oyster but the flag would be placed on the Oyster
account instead of on the individual card. [...]

I know that is a theoretical possibility but take a step back as to how online accountd work. The card holder logs on and sets up the account themselves. If they wish to add bank card details to their account to give access to extra information facilities if they use their bank card for travel then that is their choice entirely. TfL hold the data but never enter it or change it.

I can think of a way to do it. The customer has their Railcard
checked by someone at the station who verifies it in whatever way they
do now. The LUL person then gets the ticket machine (or to save £££s,
a hand-held device with printer) to generate a unique (use once,
time-limited) code that is printed out on normal ticket or receipt
stock. The code, er, encodes the Railcard type and end date, possibly
the card number.

This unique code is then entered on the TfL site. If the ticket
machines can print images, then a QR code could be scanned and
uploaded instead, or the URL found in it simply accessed. Entry of
the code associates the Railcard with the online account and different
fares/caps are charged accordingly, to any cards registered there. I
think it is quite reasonable to expect users to register to get a
discount so I don't see this to be a problem.

And to think that TfL wouldn't give me a job!

Richard.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500, wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to
confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in
possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an
Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then
ask to see.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:42:42 +0100, David Walters
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500, wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to
confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in
possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an
Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then
ask to see.

I don't see the problem. The railcard must still be brought along for
the journey.

--
jhk

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,
wrote:

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 13:28:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 2017-08-27 12:12:17 +0000, e27002 aurora said:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,
wrote:

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

I'm confused. Why have you posted the same text with two slightly
different subject lines a few hours apart?

Typo in a group name first time thru.

And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

Why do the ticketing systems of one TOC work on all TOCs? It is for
passenger convenience. The London Underground is the hub of the
passenger rail system. As YOU say it accounts for half of the UK's
passenger journeys. Many of those journeys start outwith their
system, yet they reserve the right to be an exception to the rules.

And do you not think the systems will evolve to remove some of the
idiosyncrasies

Hope springs eternal.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

Robert wrote:
On 2017-08-27 12:12:17 +0000, e27002 aurora said:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,
wrote:

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

I'm confused. Why have you posted the same text with two slightly
different subject lines a few hours apart?

And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

I think we know why Adrian thinks the way he does: TfL is controlled by a
Labour mayor, while the DfT is headed by a right-wing secretary of state.
Ergo, everything that TfL does must be bad, and everything the DfT does
must have been for the best possible reasons.

The fact that London has a smart card that actually works, while the DfT's
preferred ITSO standard smart card is neither standard nor smart, is
neither here nor there.

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 13:39:24 on
Sun, 27 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:
And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

Why do the ticketing systems of one TOC work on all TOCs? It is for
passenger convenience. The London Underground is the hub of the
passenger rail system. As YOU say it accounts for half of the UK's
passenger journeys. Many of those journeys start outwith their
system, yet they reserve the right to be an exception to the rules.

I'm more interested in why the lack of discount for *National Rail*
journeys which just happen to be inside the Oyster area, and paid for by
Oyster.

eg Gatwick to Elstree (surely soon also Luton Airport Parkway).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rai...rvices-map.pdf
--
Roland Perry

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 13:56:38 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:39:24 on
Sun, 27 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:
And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

Why do the ticketing systems of one TOC work on all TOCs? It is for
passenger convenience. The London Underground is the hub of the
passenger rail system. As YOU say it accounts for half of the UK's
passenger journeys. Many of those journeys start outwith their
system, yet they reserve the right to be an exception to the rules.

I'm more interested in why the lack of discount for *National Rail*
journeys which just happen to be inside the Oyster area, and paid for by
Oyster.

Oyster is TfL's baby and they operate to their own rules ignoring the
discounts to which passengers are entitled.

egg Gatwick to Elstree (surely soon also Luton Airport Parkway).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rai...rvices-map.pdf

If they pull these stunts on the Elizabeth Line there may be a
backlash from passengers on the former Western Region.

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
wrote:

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 13:47:06 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Robert wrote:
On 2017-08-27 12:12:17 +0000, e27002 aurora said:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,
wrote:

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

I'm confused. Why have you posted the same text with two slightly
different subject lines a few hours apart?

And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

I think we know why Adrian thinks the way he does: TfL is controlled by a
Labour mayor, while the DfT is headed by a right-wing secretary of state.
Ergo, everything that TfL does must be bad, and everything the DfT does
must have been for the best possible reasons.

We can safely ignore Nigel's haverings. This about passenger value
for money, and passenger convenience. If a customer is entitled to a
discount he should receive it.

The fact that London has a smart card that actually works, while the Ft.'s
preferred ITSO standard smart card is neither standard nor smart, is
neither here nor there.

But everyone else uses ITSO.

The UK need to have a common standard developed, it should be legally
available across all public railway and bus networks.

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 14:56:21 on
Sun, 27 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:
The UK need to have a common standard developed, it should be legally
available across all public railway and bus networks.

It's called "cash".
--
Roland Perry

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On 27/08/17 16:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:56:21 on
Sun, 27 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:
The UK need to have a common standard developed, it should be legally
available across all public railway and bus networks.

It's called "cash".

Again, available virtually everywhere except London buses.

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In article ,
(e27002 aurora) wrote:

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 13:47:06 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
wrote:

The fact that London has a smart card that actually works, while the
Ft.'s preferred ITSO standard smart card is neither standard nor smart,
is neither here nor there.

But everyone else uses ITSO.

The UK need to have a common standard developed, it should be legally
available across all public railway and bus networks.

That was supposed to be ITSO but even within the same company's operations
it isn't inter-available and anyway on card storage technology is
obsolescent now.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 18:38:15 -0500,
wrote:

In article ,
(e27002 aurora) wrote:

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 13:47:06 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
wrote:

The fact that London has a smart card that actually works, while the
Ft.'s preferred ITSO standard smart card is neither standard nor smart,
is neither here nor there.

But everyone else uses ITSO.

The UK need to have a common standard developed, it should be legally
available across all public railway and bus networks.

That was supposed to be ITSO but even within the same company's operations
it isn't inter-available

Someone dropped the ball on that one!

and anyway on card storage technology is
obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 08:41:20 on
Mon, 28 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.

What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.

Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.

The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.

Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?

Carrying a physical Credit Card is just so passé, my dharling.

I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

--
Roland Perry

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 09:37:29 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 08:41:20 on
Mon, 28 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.

What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.

Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.

The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.

Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?

Carrying a physical Credit Card is just so passé, my dharling.

I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

A few months back my replacement debit card arrived from my US
bankers. Finally! it is chip & pin. That is close to a decade after
the UK banks. BUT, it is not contactless.

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:41:20 on
Mon, 28 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.

What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.

Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.

The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.

Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-contactless-payment/apple-pay

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-contactless-payment/android-pay

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-contactless-payment/barclaycard-and-barclays-contactless-mobile


Carrying a physical Credit Card is just so passé, my dharling.

I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

Like you, I somehow doubt it. I don't think many US credit cards are
contactless.

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 11:15:22 on Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:41:20 on
Mon, 28 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.

What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.

Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.

The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.

Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...ethods-of-cont
actless-payment/apple-pay

They must have slipped that in without me noticing. Where on the gate is
the Apple-pay logo?

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...ethods-of-cont
actless-payment/android-pay

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...ethods-of-cont
actless-payment/barclaycard-and-barclays-contactless-mobile


Carrying a physical Credit Card is just so passé, my dharling.

I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

Like you, I somehow doubt it. I don't think many US credit cards are
contactless.

Nor are all my UK ones. The one I'd use the most (debit card on business
account) is a far as I can tell not available in contactless at all.
Maybe they don't like the idea of unauthorised overdrafts (contrary to
popular belief, regular contactless transactions don't necessarily debit
your balance in real time, and of course TfL ones won't hit until
overnight).
--
Roland Perry

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

I've used my U.S. AmEx on the tube. Worked fine. It's contactless
chip and signature.

If your friend's credit card doesn't work, that's probably because
it's not contactless. In my experience the majority of US cards are
still not, even though they have contact chips.

With respect to Apple Pay and Android Pay, it was my impression that
they use the same interface as contactless cards, so they should
work automagically on any contactless payment device. I should try
my phone when I'm in London in the spring.

R's,
John

London Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

Roland Perry wrote:

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 11:15:22 on Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:41:20 on
Mon, 28 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.

What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.

Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.

The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.

Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...ethods-of-cont
actless-payment/apple-pay

They must have slipped that in without me noticing. Where on the gate is
the Apple-pay logo?


Not needed if a reader does contactless it does Apple or Android pay


https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...ethods-of-cont
actless-payment/android-pay

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...ethods-of-cont
actless-payment/barclaycard-and-barclays-contactless-mobile



--
Mark

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 20:27:25 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:42:42 +0100, David Walters
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500, wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to
confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in
possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an
Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then
ask to see.

I don't see the problem. The railcard must still be brought along for
the journey.

How would the ticket inspector know to ask to see a railcard if a
contactless card was used?

If an Oyster card has a railcard discount set then there is a flag on
the card which I assume is visible on the inspectors handheld reader. TfL
can't set a flag on contactless cards.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In article ,
(David Walters) wrote:

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 20:27:25 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:42:42 +0100, David Walters
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,
wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail
route in London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and
discounts given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards
was somewhat haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check
railcard registration status at a ticket machine. It was only when
they decided to close all the ticket offices that they had to make it
possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors
contactless became a much better option when introduced unless you are
a railcard holder because, although Oyster cards have to be registered
to get railcard discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts
against Contactless travel.

Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to
confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in
possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an
Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then
ask to see.

I don't see the problem. The railcard must still be brought along for
the journey.

How would the ticket inspector know to ask to see a railcard if a
contactless card was used?

From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.

If an Oyster card has a railcard discount set then there is a flag on
the card which I assume is visible on the inspectors handheld reader. TfL
can't set a flag on contactless cards.

True but that's old technology. It's moving to the back office. Get with it.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 15:11:29 -0500, wrote:
In article ,
(David Walters) wrote:

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 20:27:25 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:42:42 +0100, David Walters
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,
wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail
route in London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and
discounts given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards
was somewhat haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check
railcard registration status at a ticket machine. It was only when
they decided to close all the ticket offices that they had to make it
possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors
contactless became a much better option when introduced unless you are
a railcard holder because, although Oyster cards have to be registered
to get railcard discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts
against Contactless travel.

Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to
confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in
possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an
Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then
ask to see.

I don't see the problem. The railcard must still be brought along for
the journey.

How would the ticket inspector know to ask to see a railcard if a
contactless card was used?

From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.

Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.

There are also lots of places without data where tickets are checked
such as tunnels so you can't ask the back office.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 10:10:52 +0100
David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 15:11:29 -0500,
wrote:
From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.

Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.

I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a
valid bank and account type.

--
Spud

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On 30/08/2017 11:52, d wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 10:10:52 +0100
David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 15:11:29 -0500,
wrote:
From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.

Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.

I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a
valid bank and account type.

Given the frequency that people get cards cancelled these days due to
unauthorised payments etc I assume they must have a refuse list that
gets regularly distributed and updated to the gates - if not it's a
massive revenue hole.

I can imagine though that each card would work once, but for e.g. tube
journeys by the time you touch out again it may well have been flagged
and fail.

Given the price of memory these days, you could easily store a card for
each person in the UK in 0.5GB and CPU processing etc is such that it
could be rapidly searched if organised correctly. Ok - transmitting it
entirely would be tiresome, but presumably you'd only distributed e.g.
minutely updates each of which would only be a handful of cards.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

In message , at 10:52:40 on Wed, 30 Aug
2017, d remarked:

From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.

Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.

I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a
valid bank and account type.

The first time it's used, probably nothing to stop it. Once the charge
"bounces", overnight, it'll probably be added to a local-to-TfL
block-list.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 12:18:59 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:40 on Wed, 30 Aug
2017, d remarked:

From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.

Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.

I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then
foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a
valid bank and account type.

The first time it's used, probably nothing to stop it. Once the charge
"bounces", overnight, it'll probably be added to a local-to-TfL
block-list.

I suppose for TfL the most they can lose is the daily capped fare, but if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.

--
Spud

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 12:18:59 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:40 on Wed, 30 Aug
2017, d remarked:

From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.

Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.

I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then
foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a
valid bank and account type.

The first time it's used, probably nothing to stop it. Once the charge
"bounces", overnight, it'll probably be added to a local-to-TfL
block-list.

I suppose for TfL the most they can lose is the daily capped fare, but if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.

I wonder if there isn't a list, updated at least daily, of all withdrawn
credit card numbers (that were still in their period of validity)? That
would be small enough to be downloaded to portable devices for offline use.

Oyster and Contactless on NR
 

On 30/08/2017 14:31, d wrote:
if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.

Isnt't the max for contactless £40, hence that has to be the limit of
liability.