Explosion on district line
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 20:05:01 on
Sun, 17 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:
On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 09:40:01 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 03:29:35 on
Sun, 17 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:
But instead of the early grainy, very low res, fuzzy, extended play
VHS
images on worn-out tapes, it's now HD quality, sharp, clear, digital
images. Perhaps some are now 4k video quality?

How many would sir like ?
https://www.cctvcameraworld.com/4k-ip-cameras.html

I wonder how widely installed those are? Most installed cameras are
well
behind the state-of-the-art.

At around 200 squid a time possibly roughly the same good/bad quality
spread among users applies as before when it seemed to be "TV" quality
v. something cheaper ?

The cost of CCTV systems is much more than just a consumer grade camera.
For public surveillance not only is there the backhaul, but they are
often able to pan and tilt, and need much better sensitivity/
illumination than those listed.

Have you actually installed and used those cheapo ones? They are OK for
the passageway down the side of a shop, but not much else.

There's not much point having pan and tilt if you haven't got someone
to operate it; the "do you know this person?" pictures generally seem
to come from fixed cameras.

Tell that to the installers of the tens of thousands of cameras which do
pan and tilt.

The need for moveable cameras is reduced by siting fixed cameras at pinch
points;

The moveable cameras tend to be at strategic points where they can cover
may different routes. The panning and tilting can be automatic on a timer.
Such cameras are more for preventing crime than detecting it.

each moveable camera is likely to augment several fixed cameras depending
on purpose. When you get to the point of needing to track a specific
target then you probably are needing more moveable cameras (and zoom
lenses).

You've been watching too much "Spooks".

I never had a problem with spooks following people on CCTV

It was the way that there was always magically a "new" real person to take
over regardless of the route that the perp took, that was unbelievable.

tim


--
Roland Perry

Explosion on district line
 

wrote in message ...
On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 17:54:43 +0100
"tim..." wrote:
"Basil Jet" wrote in message
...
On 2017\09\15 13:06, tim... wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 15/09/17 09:47, e27002 aurora wrote:
On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 08:19:08 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

Looks like it could be an improvised device, or some builders
chemicals that
overheated. Hopefully the latter but seems unlikely to me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41278545

There are reports of folks leaving the station with burns on exposed
flesh. It sounds like a chemical reaction. We can but hope it's not
"the religion of piece" proselytizing.


Seen a picture of the device on twitter with wires hanging out.

the device had a timer (apparently)

Maybe LU can find out how one works,
and fit them in their line control offices.

are we meant to understand that comment?

Makes perfect sense to me. LU timetables are just fiction. Someone should
invest in buying the drivers and signalmen some watches at least.

you mean that they don't have them (watches that is)?

And in any case, how does having a timer stop the delay happening in the
first place.

and how does it help fix the problem?

(Yes I do know how to fix it!)

tim

Explosion on district line
 

In message
-septem
ber.org, at 12:34:55 on Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Recliner
remarked:
my question is

did they in fact manage this in the time available before they stopped the
guy at Dover

or

did they just get lucky because he gave himself away, some other way

My interest here (as a tech professional) is in assessing the state of the
art of the technology to do this in 12 hours, where previously it might have
taken them 3 weeks (or more)

It seems he was arrested at Dover on other grounds.

No, or forged, passport/ticket?

Only later did they discover he was wanted fir the attempted bombing.
So they got lucky.

--
Roland Perry

Explosion on district line
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 13:44:03 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:


assuming that he is the actual wanted person and not just some random
person of the correct ethnicity (as in - the Birmingham Six)

I wonder if they identified him as a potential suspect:

a) from a name
b) from facial recognition
c) his general demeanor
d) a failed attempt to travel on false documents

anything else?

tim



I think police methods are now far more sophisticated.

ESP?

My question really is

did they pick him up because they had managed to get a name/face for
the
person they were looking for

or did he give himself away

tim


Look at Train CCTV of man with with bag getting on at station xxx
look at CCTV at station xxx for the time period you expect someone on
that train to have entered the station and see same man with same bag
touching in.
Strike lucky and find he used a registered Oyster card.

Yes I do know how they could have found out the identity of the person

my question is

did they in fact manage this in the time available before they stopped
the
guy at Dover

or

did they just get lucky because he gave himself away, some other way

My interest here (as a tech professional) is in assessing the state of
the
art of the technology to do this in 12 hours, where previously it might
have
taken them 3 weeks (or more)

It seems he was arrested at Dover on other grounds. Only later did they
discover he was wanted fir the attempted bombing. So they got lucky.

Thanks

I had half expected that would be the answer (but had seen nothing to
suggest it was)

tim

Explosion on district line
 

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:39:38 +0100
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message ...
Makes perfect sense to me. LU timetables are just fiction. Someone should
invest in buying the drivers and signalmen some watches at least.

you mean that they don't have them (watches that is)?

And in any case, how does having a timer stop the delay happening in the
first place.

Because as a couple of hundred people are sitting in a train with a green
light waiting for the relief driver to turn up to take over, perhaps having
an alarm bell in the mess might remind him that he's paid to drive the damn
thing.

Another nice-to-have would be an auto cutoff interval on the PA if the driver
decides he's a budding talk radio host and spends 2 minutes telling us the
bleedin fecking obvious.

--
Spud

Explosion on district line
 

wrote in message ...
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:39:38 +0100
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message ...
Makes perfect sense to me. LU timetables are just fiction. Someone
should
invest in buying the drivers and signalmen some watches at least.

you mean that they don't have them (watches that is)?

And in any case, how does having a timer stop the delay happening in the
first place.

Because as a couple of hundred people are sitting in a train with a green
light waiting for the relief driver to turn up to take over, perhaps
having
an alarm bell in the mess might remind him that he's paid to drive the
damn
thing.

well having grown up on a route where turns started at the terminus (Morden)
I suppose that I never experienced that problem

But you're right it does happen on the Picc at Acton

But I still don't see that it's down to the individual not knowing the time.
They just do it because they can.

tim

Explosion on district line
 

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:58:21 +0100
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message ...
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:39:38 +0100
Because as a couple of hundred people are sitting in a train with a green
light waiting for the relief driver to turn up to take over, perhaps
having
an alarm bell in the mess might remind him that he's paid to drive the
damn
thing.

well having grown up on a route where turns started at the terminus (Morden)
I suppose that I never experienced that problem

Congratulations, you had utl post 80000 on the aioe server :)

But you're right it does happen on the Picc at Acton

And arnos grove and no doubt rayners lane too.

But I still don't see that it's down to the individual not knowing the time.
They just do it because they can.

Well thats probably true unfortunately.

--
Spud

Explosion on district line
 

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:36:47 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 20:05:01 on
Sun, 17 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:
On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 09:40:01 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 03:29:35 on
Sun, 17 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:
But instead of the early grainy, very low res, fuzzy, extended play
VHS
images on worn-out tapes, it's now HD quality, sharp, clear, digital
images. Perhaps some are now 4k video quality?

How many would sir like ?
https://www.cctvcameraworld.com/4k-ip-cameras.html

I wonder how widely installed those are? Most installed cameras are
well
behind the state-of-the-art.

At around 200 squid a time possibly roughly the same good/bad quality
spread among users applies as before when it seemed to be "TV" quality
v. something cheaper ?

The cost of CCTV systems is much more than just a consumer grade camera.
For public surveillance not only is there the backhaul, but they are
often able to pan and tilt, and need much better sensitivity/
illumination than those listed.

Have you actually installed and used those cheapo ones? They are OK for
the passageway down the side of a shop, but not much else.

There's not much point having pan and tilt if you haven't got someone
to operate it; the "do you know this person?" pictures generally seem
to come from fixed cameras.

Tell that to the installers of the tens of thousands of cameras which do
pan and tilt.

The need for moveable cameras is reduced by siting fixed cameras at pinch
points;

The moveable cameras tend to be at strategic points where they can cover
may different routes. The panning and tilting can be automatic on a timer.
Such cameras are more for preventing crime than detecting it.

each moveable camera is likely to augment several fixed cameras depending
on purpose. When you get to the point of needing to track a specific
target then you probably are needing more moveable cameras (and zoom
lenses).

You've been watching too much "Spooks".

No, I've been working in one of many areas where that is exactly what
is done when an offender leaves the scene of their crime. They're
generally too thick to go off down a side street so we've often
watched the police with us just waiting for them to walk/run past.

I never had a problem with spooks following people on CCTV

It was the way that there was always magically a "new" real person to take
over regardless of the route that the perp took, that was unbelievable.

Explosion on district line
 

On 18/09/2017 13:34, Recliner wrote:

It seems he was arrested at Dover on other grounds. Only later did they
discover he was wanted fir the attempted bombing.

"They" would say that, wouldn't they...?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Explosion on district line
 

In message , at 18:47:06 on
Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:

The moveable cameras tend to be at strategic points where they can cover
may different routes. The panning and tilting can be automatic on a timer.
Such cameras are more for preventing crime than detecting it.

each moveable camera is likely to augment several fixed cameras depending
on purpose. When you get to the point of needing to track a specific
target then you probably are needing more moveable cameras (and zoom
lenses).

You've been watching too much "Spooks".

No, I've been working in one of many areas where that is exactly what
is done when an offender leaves the scene of their crime. They're
generally too thick to go off down a side street so we've often
watched the police with us just waiting for them to walk/run past.

How are the police alerted to the flight of the alleged offender so
soon?

Meanwhile, I was looking at one of the pan/tilt cameras on a street
corner (T-junction) earlier today, and it simply cycles between each of
the three directions every 15-20 seconds.
--
Roland Perry

Explosion on district line
 

Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 18/09/2017 13:34, Recliner wrote:

It seems he was arrested at Dover on other grounds. Only later did they
discover he was wanted fir the attempted bombing.

"They" would say that, wouldn't they...?

Why? "They" would look smarter if they'd claimed to have caught him
through their superior intelligence, rather than catching him through lucky
accident.

Explosion on district line
 

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 21:19:32 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 18:47:06 on
Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:

The moveable cameras tend to be at strategic points where they can cover
may different routes. The panning and tilting can be automatic on a timer.
Such cameras are more for preventing crime than detecting it.

each moveable camera is likely to augment several fixed cameras depending
on purpose. When you get to the point of needing to track a specific
target then you probably are needing more moveable cameras (and zoom
lenses).

You've been watching too much "Spooks".

No, I've been working in one of many areas where that is exactly what
is done when an offender leaves the scene of their crime. They're
generally too thick to go off down a side street so we've often
watched the police with us just waiting for them to walk/run past.

How are the police alerted to the flight of the alleged offender so
soon?

Through a set of the local authority's radios used by door staff,
police, street wardens and others.

Meanwhile, I was looking at one of the pan/tilt cameras on a street
corner (T-junction) earlier today, and it simply cycles between each of
the three directions every 15-20 seconds.

That would suggest it is mainly for observing the traffic when in that
style of use. It might be findable on one of the various websites that
get feeds from cameras.

Explosion on district line
 

On 18/09/2017 22:01, Recliner wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 18/09/2017 13:34, Recliner wrote:

It seems he was arrested at Dover on other grounds. Only later did they
discover he was wanted fir the attempted bombing.

"They" would say that, wouldn't they...?

Why? "They" would look smarter if they'd claimed to have caught him
through their superior intelligence, rather than catching him through lucky
accident.

They don't need to look smart, just to get the right person. There might
be less paperwork and fewer awkward questions if it was seemingly lucky
chance, rather than something which could give some vague clue as to how
they knew.

ISTR once reading about an aircraft being sent to fly past a major
German warship, in the hope that when the ship came under attack shortly
afterwards the Kriegsmarine would think that the plane had happened to
stumble across it, rather than suspect that someone might be reading
their messages and finding them that way.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Explosion on district line
 

In message , at 23:11:45 on
Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:

I've been working in one of many areas where that is exactly what
is done when an offender leaves the scene of their crime. They're
generally too thick to go off down a side street so we've often
watched the police with us just waiting for them to walk/run past.

How are the police alerted to the flight of the alleged offender so
soon?

Through a set of the local authority's radios used by door staff,
police, street wardens and others.

I'm surprised to find that's the idea behind the cameras where I live.
Surprised because I know the police station (where the feeds end up) is
unmanned at the times when they would be most useful.

Meanwhile, I was looking at one of the pan/tilt cameras on a street
corner (T-junction) earlier today, and it simply cycles between each of
the three directions every 15-20 seconds.

That would suggest it is mainly for observing the traffic when in that
style of use.

Antisocial behaviour.

It might be findable on one of the various websites that get feeds from
cameras.

No, and the pictures it takes are virtually inaccessible to the public
even under SAR. I've never seen quite such a lots of bogus reasons why
they could refuse :(
--
Roland Perry

Explosion on district line
 

wrote in message ...
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:58:21 +0100
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message ...
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:39:38 +0100
Because as a couple of hundred people are sitting in a train with a
green
light waiting for the relief driver to turn up to take over, perhaps
having
an alarm bell in the mess might remind him that he's paid to drive the
damn
thing.

well having grown up on a route where turns started at the terminus
(Morden)
I suppose that I never experienced that problem

Congratulations, you had utl post 80000 on the aioe server :)

does that win me some spurious "free" prize that I have to spend more on an
a 0900 phone number to collect, than it is worth?


tim

Explosion on district line
 

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 18/09/2017 13:34, Recliner wrote:

It seems he was arrested at Dover on other grounds. Only later did they
discover he was wanted fir the attempted bombing.

"They" would say that, wouldn't they...?

I'm inclined to think that the alternative is the greater deterrent, to be
honest.

Announcing that they did, in fact, manage to identify the perp's name using
normal policing looking at CCTV is going to worry them into stopping
attacking such targets - after all it's no secret that the CCTV is there,
and I doubt that any of theses copycat cells have the resources to disable
it.

Keeping it secret that they can do this, is no deterrent at all.

and it is the deterrent that we need here. Catching the perf after he has
killed 100 people is not a successful outcome.

Explosion on district line
 

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 18/09/2017 22:01, Recliner wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 18/09/2017 13:34, Recliner wrote:

It seems he was arrested at Dover on other grounds. Only later did they
discover he was wanted fir the attempted bombing.

"They" would say that, wouldn't they...?

Why? "They" would look smarter if they'd claimed to have caught him
through their superior intelligence, rather than catching him through
lucky
accident.

They don't need to look smart, just to get the right person. There might
be less paperwork and fewer awkward questions if it was seemingly lucky
chance, rather than something which could give some vague clue as to how
they knew.

the "vague clue" to how it might be achieved was fully explained on
"Breakfast" the day after the incident

tim

Explosion on district line
 

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 10:02:15 +0100
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message ...
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:58:21 +0100
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message ...
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:39:38 +0100
Because as a couple of hundred people are sitting in a train with a
green
light waiting for the relief driver to turn up to take over, perhaps
having
an alarm bell in the mess might remind him that he's paid to drive the
damn
thing.

well having grown up on a route where turns started at the terminus
(Morden)
I suppose that I never experienced that problem

Congratulations, you had utl post 80000 on the aioe server :)

does that win me some spurious "free" prize that I have to spend more on an
a 0900 phone number to collect, than it is worth?

It entitles you to one free pleasant comment in a reply.

"Have a nice day!"

Explosion on district line
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:54:53 on Sun, 17 Sep
2017, Graeme Wall remarked
did they pick him up because they had managed to get a name/face for the
person they were looking for

or did he give himself away

Look at Train CCTV of man with with bag getting on at station xxx
look at CCTV at station xxx for the time period you expect someone on
that train to have entered the station and see same man with same bag
touching in.
Strike lucky and find he used a registered Oyster card.

Or he's a minor criminal with a record and fingerprints/DNA on file.
Get a match from the bucket.

Very little hard information two days later. One arrest in Dover,
another in London; are either firmly linked to forensics from CCTV and
the bucket, or because of something else?

Well, they're still making arrests:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41327872

Explosion on district line
 

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 07:15:23 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 23:11:45 on
Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:

I've been working in one of many areas where that is exactly what
is done when an offender leaves the scene of their crime. They're
generally too thick to go off down a side street so we've often
watched the police with us just waiting for them to walk/run past.

How are the police alerted to the flight of the alleged offender so
soon?

Through a set of the local authority's radios used by door staff,
police, street wardens and others.

I'm surprised to find that's the idea behind the cameras where I live.

Your area might not use them the same way as Lambeth.

Surprised because I know the police station (where the feeds end up) is
unmanned at the times when they would be most useful.

Meanwhile, I was looking at one of the pan/tilt cameras on a street
corner (T-junction) earlier today, and it simply cycles between each of
the three directions every 15-20 seconds.

That would suggest it is mainly for observing the traffic when in that
style of use.

Antisocial behaviour.

That tends to happen at night. If the cameras are available then it
would seem to be sensible to use them for observing the traffic at
other times. In the above case, the cameras are usually "parked"
around 4am after the clubs have closed, not necessarily all aimed at
something as at least one (not at a junction) is just left pointing
down.

It might be findable on one of the various websites that get feeds from
cameras.

No, and the pictures it takes are virtually inaccessible to the public
even under SAR. I've never seen quite such a lots of bogus reasons why
they could refuse :(

Explosion on district line
 

In message , at 20:51:01 on Tue, 19
Sep 2017, Recliner remarked:

Very little hard information two days later. One arrest in Dover,
another in London; are either firmly linked to forensics from CCTV and
the bucket, or because of something else?

Turns out to be "something else".

Well, they're still making arrests:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41327872

Most likely "associated with/linked to" one or both of the first two
arrestees, rather than to the bucket or CCTV in west London.
--
Roland Perry

Explosion on district line
 

In message , at 02:03:16 on
Wed, 20 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 07:15:23 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 23:11:45 on
Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Charles Ellson remarked:

I've been working in one of many areas where that is exactly what
is done when an offender leaves the scene of their crime. They're
generally too thick to go off down a side street so we've often
watched the police with us just waiting for them to walk/run past.

How are the police alerted to the flight of the alleged offender so
soon?

Through a set of the local authority's radios used by door staff,
police, street wardens and others.

I'm surprised to find that's the idea behind the cameras where I live.

Your area might not use them the same way as Lambeth.

The intention in their write-up is the same.

Surprised because I know the police station (where the feeds end up) is
unmanned at the times when they would be most useful.

Meanwhile, I was looking at one of the pan/tilt cameras on a street
corner (T-junction) earlier today, and it simply cycles between each of
the three directions every 15-20 seconds.

That would suggest it is mainly for observing the traffic when in that
style of use.

Antisocial behaviour.

That tends to happen at night. If the cameras are available then it
would seem to be sensible to use them for observing the traffic at
other times.

That's not in fact in their business case. Also, being observable only
at the police station, when these days the police have no interest in
the smooth flow of traffic in town centres. As far as I can see they
don't even turn out to RTAs which block the road unless someone
specifically calls them.

In the above case, the cameras are usually "parked" around 4am after
the clubs have closed, not necessarily all aimed at something as at
least one (not at a junction) is just left pointing down.

The one I saw was doing its pan-dance in the middle of the day.

--
Roland Perry

Explosion on district line
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:51:01 on Tue, 19
Sep 2017, Recliner remarked:

Very little hard information two days later. One arrest in Dover,
another in London; are either firmly linked to forensics from CCTV and
the bucket, or because of something else?

Turns out to be "something else".

Well, they're still making arrests:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41327872

Most likely "associated with/linked to" one or both of the first two
arrestees, rather than to the bucket or CCTV in west London.

I wouldn't claim to know.

Explosion on district line
 

In article , Arthur
Figgis writes
ISTR once reading about an aircraft being sent to fly past a major
German warship, in the hope that when the ship came under attack shortly
afterwards the Kriegsmarine would think that the plane had happened to
stumble across it, rather than suspect that someone might be reading
their messages and finding them that way.

That was part of standard policy for "Ultra".

Basically, no information from Enigma decrypts could be used in the
field unless there was a plausible non-crypto-related explanation that
the Germans would believe. Of course, the information could be used to
generate that "explanation".

So, in the example I think you're thinking of, a decrypt would indicate
where and when an attack submarine was meeting with a tanker submarine
to refuel - this had to be done on the surface and neither could
submerge during the process. So a reconnaisance squadron was instructed
to send a plane out in that specific area. To their surprise, they would
find the two subs sitting there and could whistle up some bombers. If
the submariners survived the experience, they would report that they got
spotted by a plane.

--
Clive D.W. Feather

Explosion on district line
 

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 08:19:08 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

Looks like it could be an improvised device, or some builders chemicals that
overheated. Hopefully the latter but seems unlikely to me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41278545

It's now in court:

"the device was made from the volatile chemical explosive TATP and
contained 2.2kg of sockets, screws, bolts, nails, knives and
screwdrivers"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43318098