Recliner wrote:
Peter Able wrote:

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
I'm sure many people here have already visited and ridden on Mail Rail
museum, which opened last autumn. I finally got around to it last
week. This was my second visit to the railway, having been on an
organised visit about 40 years ago, when it was in full operation. Of
course, I didn't get a ride that time.

For anyone who's interested, but hasn't yet been, here are a few
observations and pictures:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157664534713587

- You still need to book in advance, but only a few days. You must
book tickets for a particular, timed train, and turn up 10 mins
before.

- They normally run one of the two new trains Mon-Fri (services every
20 mins), and both at weekends (services every 10 mins).

- The staff told me it's better to come on a weekday, as it's much
quieter (fewer rampaging kids).

- The museum entrance is very discreet, and it's easy to walk right
past it. They've had to put a little sign on the pavement to identify
it.

- There are lockers in the entrance, which are worth using, as bags
can't be taken on the cramped train. There is also an unlocked cage on
the platform.

- The exhibition and tourist train platform are in the old depot,
which is very close to the surface. It's only one flight of stairs
down, so most people won't need the lift.

- The exhibition in the old depot is interesting, and includes a
virtual reality viewer of how it used to be. The can swing the screen
round, zooming in and out and even seeing through a wall. There are
several items of rolling stock to look at, and various other displays,
confusingly including the main line TPO Bag Exchange catcher nets and
mast, as seen on the Night Mail film. It could fool people into
thinking that there were used on Mail Rail.

- The train ride lasts 15 minutes, including two stops in the Mount
Pleasant station for audio-visual shows.

- The distance covered is small. Basically, you never leave Mount
Pleasant, starting out in the deport to the north west of the main
station, passing through the station, looping round immediately after
passing through the platform, and then returning through the other
platform.

- The trains are battery-powered, and are charged overnight. They do
up to 19 circuits in a day, which one charge can manage.

- The driver and controller alternate roles. They told me that it's
boring being the controller on a one-train day, and they much prefer
driving (who wouldn't?). There's also someone to open and close the
train doors and canopies, and to flip the tram-style seat backs.

- The clearance between the trains and the tunnels is very small in
places. Obviously the doors and canopies can't be opened during the
ride (the driver warns you that the train will stop if you put too
much pressure on them).

- They told me that the rest of the railway is still owned and
maintained by the Royal Mail. There is at least the theoretical
possibility of the museum trains doing a longer circuit, perhaps to
the next station, but there appear to be no current plans for such an
expansion. It would obviously need Royal Mail's agreement, and there
would be a significant costs. The current trains may not have the
battery capacity for the extra distances involved.



Problems include lack of emergency exits.

True

Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I
don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?


In the sense that there was no driver on its trains, I guess that the POLR
was "automatic"?

I think 'remote controlled' would be more accurate. For most of its life,
it was fully manual, but it had computer controlled signalling and train
control towards the end. But the trains were still 'dumb'.


On plain line (ie between the stations), was there one section, or were
there relays maintaining a dead section behind each powered train?

Apart from having drivers, the new trains have one other difference:
they're reversible. The old trains only ever ran forwards, but the new ones
reverse on every journey, so they have cabs at each end.



The 'dumb' units are double-ended AFAIK, from photographs and the one I've
seen for real (NRM, York). Also the system had reversing sidings...


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-septe
mber.org, at 21:17:05 on Sun, 11 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

If there's no surface access, how did they get the tour-trains in there?

The surface access is in the former depot area, now turned into the tourist
train base and station. That's probably partly why it's so shallow, just
below the surface. The running line is deeper, a proper tube railway.

That doesn't answer the question: "how did they get the tour-trains in
there?"

Same way they got the original trains in and out, presumably; the depot
must have some kind of suitable access.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Peter Able wrote:

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
I'm sure many people here have already visited and ridden on Mail Rail
museum, which opened last autumn. I finally got around to it last
week. This was my second visit to the railway, having been on an
organised visit about 40 years ago, when it was in full operation. Of
course, I didn't get a ride that time.

For anyone who's interested, but hasn't yet been, here are a few
observations and pictures:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157664534713587

- You still need to book in advance, but only a few days. You must
book tickets for a particular, timed train, and turn up 10 mins
before.

- They normally run one of the two new trains Mon-Fri (services every
20 mins), and both at weekends (services every 10 mins).

- The staff told me it's better to come on a weekday, as it's much
quieter (fewer rampaging kids).

- The museum entrance is very discreet, and it's easy to walk right
past it. They've had to put a little sign on the pavement to identify
it.

- There are lockers in the entrance, which are worth using, as bags
can't be taken on the cramped train. There is also an unlocked cage on
the platform.

- The exhibition and tourist train platform are in the old depot,
which is very close to the surface. It's only one flight of stairs
down, so most people won't need the lift.

- The exhibition in the old depot is interesting, and includes a
virtual reality viewer of how it used to be. The can swing the screen
round, zooming in and out and even seeing through a wall. There are
several items of rolling stock to look at, and various other displays,
confusingly including the main line TPO Bag Exchange catcher nets and
mast, as seen on the Night Mail film. It could fool people into
thinking that there were used on Mail Rail.

- The train ride lasts 15 minutes, including two stops in the Mount
Pleasant station for audio-visual shows.

- The distance covered is small. Basically, you never leave Mount
Pleasant, starting out in the deport to the north west of the main
station, passing through the station, looping round immediately after
passing through the platform, and then returning through the other
platform.

- The trains are battery-powered, and are charged overnight. They do
up to 19 circuits in a day, which one charge can manage.

- The driver and controller alternate roles. They told me that it's
boring being the controller on a one-train day, and they much prefer
driving (who wouldn't?). There's also someone to open and close the
train doors and canopies, and to flip the tram-style seat backs.

- The clearance between the trains and the tunnels is very small in
places. Obviously the doors and canopies can't be opened during the
ride (the driver warns you that the train will stop if you put too
much pressure on them).

- They told me that the rest of the railway is still owned and
maintained by the Royal Mail. There is at least the theoretical
possibility of the museum trains doing a longer circuit, perhaps to
the next station, but there appear to be no current plans for such an
expansion. It would obviously need Royal Mail's agreement, and there
would be a significant costs. The current trains may not have the
battery capacity for the extra distances involved.



Problems include lack of emergency exits.

True

Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I
don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?


In the sense that there was no driver on its trains, I guess that the POLR
was "automatic"?

I think 'remote controlled' would be more accurate. For most of its life,
it was fully manual, but it had computer controlled signalling and train
control towards the end. But the trains were still 'dumb'.


On plain line (ie between the stations), was there one section, or were
there relays maintaining a dead section behind each powered train?

They were multi-section. Sections were only switched on when there was a
train to be powered in or approaching them. I assume that the previous
section was automatically switched off when the next section was turned on.
There's a simple simulator of the process in the museum: you manually
switch sections in and out, to move the miniature train forward.


Apart from having drivers, the new trains have one other difference:
they're reversible. The old trains only ever ran forwards, but the new ones
reverse on every journey, so they have cabs at each end.



The 'dumb' units are double-ended AFAIK, from photographs and the one I've
seen for real (NRM, York). Also the system had reversing sidings...

I think the battery locos were needed to move stabled double-ended units
out of sidings. When under power, the units only moved forwards, with the
voltage determining how fast. Perhaps the definition of 'forwards' could be
changed during a depot visit (so trains could move under their own power in
and out of the depot).

Stations had reversing loops (like the Northern line at Kennington), which
were used to turn in-service trains. The museum trains use the loop just to
the east of Mount Pleasant station.

Stations were on humps (like the nearby Central line), and the line voltage
was lower on the sections just before stations, so trains automatically
slowed down as they approached the platform. Station platform lines were
split into multiple sections, with crossovers between sections, to the
parallel through line. So three separate short trains could be
loaded/unloaded at once, while through trains non-stopped the station.

I'm not sure if the brakes were automatically applied when not under power,
but I think they must have been.

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-septe
mber.org, at 21:17:05 on Sun, 11 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

If there's no surface access, how did they get the tour-trains in there?

The surface access is in the former depot area, now turned into the tourist
train base and station. That's probably partly why it's so shallow, just
below the surface. The running line is deeper, a proper tube railway.

That doesn't answer the question: "how did they get the tour-trains in
there?"

Same way they got the original trains in and out, presumably; the depot
must have some kind of suitable access.

Yes

On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 23:49:28 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Peter Able wrote:

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
I'm sure many people here have already visited and ridden on Mail Rail
museum, which opened last autumn. I finally got around to it last
week. This was my second visit to the railway, having been on an
organised visit about 40 years ago, when it was in full operation. Of
course, I didn't get a ride that time.

For anyone who's interested, but hasn't yet been, here are a few
observations and pictures:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157664534713587

- You still need to book in advance, but only a few days. You must
book tickets for a particular, timed train, and turn up 10 mins
before.

- They normally run one of the two new trains Mon-Fri (services every
20 mins), and both at weekends (services every 10 mins).

- The staff told me it's better to come on a weekday, as it's much
quieter (fewer rampaging kids).

- The museum entrance is very discreet, and it's easy to walk right
past it. They've had to put a little sign on the pavement to identify
it.

- There are lockers in the entrance, which are worth using, as bags
can't be taken on the cramped train. There is also an unlocked cage on
the platform.

- The exhibition and tourist train platform are in the old depot,
which is very close to the surface. It's only one flight of stairs
down, so most people won't need the lift.

- The exhibition in the old depot is interesting, and includes a
virtual reality viewer of how it used to be. The can swing the screen
round, zooming in and out and even seeing through a wall. There are
several items of rolling stock to look at, and various other displays,
confusingly including the main line TPO Bag Exchange catcher nets and
mast, as seen on the Night Mail film. It could fool people into
thinking that there were used on Mail Rail.

- The train ride lasts 15 minutes, including two stops in the Mount
Pleasant station for audio-visual shows.

- The distance covered is small. Basically, you never leave Mount
Pleasant, starting out in the deport to the north west of the main
station, passing through the station, looping round immediately after
passing through the platform, and then returning through the other
platform.

- The trains are battery-powered, and are charged overnight. They do
up to 19 circuits in a day, which one charge can manage.

- The driver and controller alternate roles. They told me that it's
boring being the controller on a one-train day, and they much prefer
driving (who wouldn't?). There's also someone to open and close the
train doors and canopies, and to flip the tram-style seat backs.

- The clearance between the trains and the tunnels is very small in
places. Obviously the doors and canopies can't be opened during the
ride (the driver warns you that the train will stop if you put too
much pressure on them).

- They told me that the rest of the railway is still owned and
maintained by the Royal Mail. There is at least the theoretical
possibility of the museum trains doing a longer circuit, perhaps to
the next station, but there appear to be no current plans for such an
expansion. It would obviously need Royal Mail's agreement, and there
would be a significant costs. The current trains may not have the
battery capacity for the extra distances involved.



Problems include lack of emergency exits.

True

Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I
don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?


In the sense that there was no driver on its trains, I guess that the POLR
was "automatic"?

I think 'remote controlled' would be more accurate. For most of its life,
it was fully manual, but it had computer controlled signalling and train
control towards the end. But the trains were still 'dumb'.


On plain line (ie between the stations), was there one section, or were
there relays maintaining a dead section behind each powered train?

They were multi-section. Sections were only switched on when there was a
train to be powered in or approaching them. I assume that the previous
section was automatically switched off when the next section was turned on.
There's a simple simulator of the process in the museum: you manually
switch sections in and out, to move the miniature train forward.


Apart from having drivers, the new trains have one other difference:
they're reversible. The old trains only ever ran forwards, but the new ones
reverse on every journey, so they have cabs at each end.



The 'dumb' units are double-ended AFAIK, from photographs and the one I've
seen for real (NRM, York). Also the system had reversing sidings...

I think the battery locos were needed to move stabled double-ended units
out of sidings. When under power, the units only moved forwards, with the
voltage determining how fast. Perhaps the definition of 'forwards' could be
changed during a depot visit (so trains could move under their own power in
and out of the depot).

Stations had reversing loops (like the Northern line at Kennington), which
were used to turn in-service trains. The museum trains use the loop just to
the east of Mount Pleasant station.

Stations were on humps (like the nearby Central line), and the line voltage
was lower on the sections just before stations, so trains automatically
slowed down as they approached the platform. Station platform lines were
split into multiple sections, with crossovers between sections, to the
parallel through line. So three separate short trains could be
loaded/unloaded at once, while through trains non-stopped the station.

I'm not sure if the brakes were automatically applied when not under power,
but I think they must have been.

Spring brakes held off while traction current was present.

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 21:49:11 on Sun, 11 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

If there's no surface access, how did they get the tour-trains in there?

The surface access is in the former depot area, now turned into the tourist
train base and station. That's probably partly why it's so shallow, just
below the surface. The running line is deeper, a proper tube railway.

That doesn't answer the question: "how did they get the tour-trains in
there?"

Through the depot surface access, of course.

So they can use that for other trains too.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-sept
ember.org, at 21:49:11 on Sun, 11 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

If there's no surface access, how did they get the tour-trains in there?

The surface access is in the former depot area, now turned into the tourist
train base and station. That's probably partly why it's so shallow, just
below the surface. The running line is deeper, a proper tube railway.

That doesn't answer the question: "how did they get the tour-trains in
there?"

Through the depot surface access, of course.

So they can use that for other trains too.

Not without dismantling the museum.

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 23:49:28 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Peter Able wrote:

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
I'm sure many people here have already visited and ridden on Mail Rail
museum, which opened last autumn. I finally got around to it last
week. This was my second visit to the railway, having been on an
organised visit about 40 years ago, when it was in full operation. Of
course, I didn't get a ride that time.

For anyone who's interested, but hasn't yet been, here are a few
observations and pictures:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157664534713587

- You still need to book in advance, but only a few days. You must
book tickets for a particular, timed train, and turn up 10 mins
before.

- They normally run one of the two new trains Mon-Fri (services every
20 mins), and both at weekends (services every 10 mins).

- The staff told me it's better to come on a weekday, as it's much
quieter (fewer rampaging kids).

- The museum entrance is very discreet, and it's easy to walk right
past it. They've had to put a little sign on the pavement to identify
it.

- There are lockers in the entrance, which are worth using, as bags
can't be taken on the cramped train. There is also an unlocked cage on
the platform.

- The exhibition and tourist train platform are in the old depot,
which is very close to the surface. It's only one flight of stairs
down, so most people won't need the lift.

- The exhibition in the old depot is interesting, and includes a
virtual reality viewer of how it used to be. The can swing the screen
round, zooming in and out and even seeing through a wall. There are
several items of rolling stock to look at, and various other displays,
confusingly including the main line TPO Bag Exchange catcher nets and
mast, as seen on the Night Mail film. It could fool people into
thinking that there were used on Mail Rail.

- The train ride lasts 15 minutes, including two stops in the Mount
Pleasant station for audio-visual shows.

- The distance covered is small. Basically, you never leave Mount
Pleasant, starting out in the deport to the north west of the main
station, passing through the station, looping round immediately after
passing through the platform, and then returning through the other
platform.

- The trains are battery-powered, and are charged overnight. They do
up to 19 circuits in a day, which one charge can manage.

- The driver and controller alternate roles. They told me that it's
boring being the controller on a one-train day, and they much prefer
driving (who wouldn't?). There's also someone to open and close the
train doors and canopies, and to flip the tram-style seat backs.

- The clearance between the trains and the tunnels is very small in
places. Obviously the doors and canopies can't be opened during the
ride (the driver warns you that the train will stop if you put too
much pressure on them).

- They told me that the rest of the railway is still owned and
maintained by the Royal Mail. There is at least the theoretical
possibility of the museum trains doing a longer circuit, perhaps to
the next station, but there appear to be no current plans for such an
expansion. It would obviously need Royal Mail's agreement, and there
would be a significant costs. The current trains may not have the
battery capacity for the extra distances involved.



Problems include lack of emergency exits.

True

Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I
don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?


In the sense that there was no driver on its trains, I guess that the POLR
was "automatic"?

I think 'remote controlled' would be more accurate. For most of its life,
it was fully manual, but it had computer controlled signalling and train
control towards the end. But the trains were still 'dumb'.


On plain line (ie between the stations), was there one section, or were
there relays maintaining a dead section behind each powered train?

They were multi-section. Sections were only switched on when there was a
train to be powered in or approaching them. I assume that the previous
section was automatically switched off when the next section was turned on.
There's a simple simulator of the process in the museum: you manually
switch sections in and out, to move the miniature train forward.


Apart from having drivers, the new trains have one other difference:
they're reversible. The old trains only ever ran forwards, but the new ones
reverse on every journey, so they have cabs at each end.



The 'dumb' units are double-ended AFAIK, from photographs and the one I've
seen for real (NRM, York). Also the system had reversing sidings...

I think the battery locos were needed to move stabled double-ended units
out of sidings. When under power, the units only moved forwards, with the
voltage determining how fast. Perhaps the definition of 'forwards' could be
changed during a depot visit (so trains could move under their own power in
and out of the depot).

Stations had reversing loops (like the Northern line at Kennington), which
were used to turn in-service trains. The museum trains use the loop just to
the east of Mount Pleasant station.

Stations were on humps (like the nearby Central line), and the line voltage
was lower on the sections just before stations, so trains automatically
slowed down as they approached the platform. Station platform lines were
split into multiple sections, with crossovers between sections, to the
parallel through line. So three separate short trains could be
loaded/unloaded at once, while through trains non-stopped the station.

I'm not sure if the brakes were automatically applied when not under power,
but I think they must have been.

Spring brakes held off while traction current was present.

Yes, that sounds right.

In message
-septe
mber.org, at 09:01:35 on Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

If there's no surface access, how did they get the tour-trains in there?

The surface access is in the former depot area, now turned into the tourist
train base and station. That's probably partly why it's so shallow, just
below the surface. The running line is deeper, a proper tube railway.

That doesn't answer the question: "how did they get the tour-trains in
there?"

Through the depot surface access, of course.

So they can use that for other trains too.

Not without dismantling the museum.

The museum's the other side of the road - or are you saying they've
entombed the tour-trains having built on the site of a former surface
access to the depot?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 16:44:49 on Sun, 11 Mar
2018, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
- They told me that the rest of the railway is still owned and
maintained by the Royal Mail. There is at least the theoretical
possibility of the museum trains doing a longer circuit, perhaps to
the next station, but there appear to be no current plans for such an
expansion. It would obviously need Royal Mail's agreement, and there
would be a significant costs. The current trains may not have the
battery capacity for the extra distances involved.

Problems include lack of emergency exits.

From the site's FAQ:

"Evacuation requirements mean that access to the Mail Rail train ride is
restricted to those who are able to walk unaided on uneven terrain, in a
confined space for up to 100m before climbing 70 steps to the surface."
--
Roland Perry