In message , at
13:57:35 on Sat, 17 Mar 2018, Paul Corfield
remarked:
To get the full facts then read the Mayoral Decision.

https://www.london.gov.uk/decisions/...es-20-may-2018

It is absolutely clear that Daily / 7 Day and longer Travelcards valid in Zone 6 will be valid to Heathrow using TfL. Ditto for daily / weekly
caps covering travel to Zone 6.

What that doesn't explicitly reveal is how outboundary through fares
such as:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...&ldn=1&tkt=SVR

and

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...st=ZHJ&tkt=SVR

will be affected (if at all).

Although one obvious conclusion be "not at all".

In other words the Elizabeth Line trip won't count as 'underground' for
such fares, even if they presumably would for outboundary Travelcards.

The results in an anomaly for day tickets where for £50.50 one will be
able to get a [valid on Lizzy Line] outboundary travelcard:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...d=0035&tkt=ADT

But it would cost £84.90 to do the same trip on a SDR:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...d=0035&tkt=ADT

--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 08:53:11 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
13:57:35 on Sat, 17 Mar 2018, Paul Corfield
remarked:
To get the full facts then read the Mayoral Decision.

https://www.london.gov.uk/decisions/...-fares-20-may-
018

It is absolutely clear that Daily / 7 Day and longer Travelcards valid in
Zone 6 will be valid to Heathrow using TfL. Ditto for daily / weekly
caps covering travel to Zone 6.

What that doesn't explicitly reveal is how outboundary through fares
such as:

It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:

To get the full facts then read the Mayoral Decision.

https://www.london.gov.uk/decisions/...-fares-20-may-
018

It is absolutely clear that Daily / 7 Day and longer Travelcards valid in
Zone 6 will be valid to Heathrow using TfL. Ditto for daily / weekly
caps covering travel to Zone 6.

What that doesn't explicitly reveal is how outboundary through fares
such as:

It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I don't think Sadiq can afford to have £1.50 flat fares across the whole
of the TfL empire; he can't even afford to keep his price-pledge when
part of the journey is on NR trains.

The obvious and simple solution is to make Heathow unequivocally in zone
6, except that would also be costly because:

(a) it would involve buying-out Heathrow's private infrastructure and
somehow compensating them for the lost premium fare revenue on HEx

(b) you'd lose the single-trip[1] "tourist[2] tax" which is most of what
this Byzantine fares structure at Heathrow is designed to collect

[1] It's notable that TfL is trying to spin "being able to take more
than that one single trip, for just 40p extra" as a benefit to
tourists, when all it's actually doing is bringing them under the
wing of temporary regular commuter fare structure.

[2] Which includes, specific to my last posting, Brits living
outboundary who depart Heathrow one day, and return on another.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping for the tube would be
reasonable. With the amount of tourists who go 1 or 2 stops because they're
too lazy to walk (no excuse not to have some kind of map these days) they'd
probably clean up.

(a) it would involve buying-out Heathrow's private infrastructure and
somehow compensating them for the lost premium fare revenue on HEx

An easier way would be to make it part of the condition for a 3rd runway.
"You want a runway that will blight the lives of millions of londoners,
cause untold extra pollution both on the ground and in the air and will cost
taxpayers a fortune? Then hand over Hex"

On 19/03/2018 11:25, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping

Does that include travel cards?

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:31:20 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/03/2018 11:25, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the
buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping

Does that include travel cards?

What travel cards? You'd pay a flat fare per trip.

On 19/03/2018 11:46, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:31:20 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/03/2018 11:25, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the
buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping

Does that include travel cards?

What travel cards? You'd pay a flat fare per trip.

Potentially more than doubling the cost of some annual fares? Yes, I
can see that being a popular policy....

In message , at 11:25:15 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:

(a) it would involve buying-out Heathrow's private infrastructure and
somehow compensating them for the lost premium fare revenue on HEx

An easier way would be to make it part of the condition for a 3rd runway.
"You want a runway that will blight the lives of millions of londoners,
cause untold extra pollution both on the ground and in the air and will cost
taxpayers a fortune? Then hand over Hex"

Part of the problem with that, is the main reason for HEx is to abstract
traffic from black cabs, aiming at the market for whom it's "A cab or
the Airport Express", and whatever you do to try to persuade them to use
what feels to a visitor like the local metro, doesn't deliver.

If anything a new 3rd runway will need HEx even more, to deliver the
pollution reduction targets.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 13:17:14 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:25:15 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:

(a) it would involve buying-out Heathrow's private infrastructure and
somehow compensating them for the lost premium fare revenue on HEx

An easier way would be to make it part of the condition for a 3rd runway.
"You want a runway that will blight the lives of millions of londoners,
cause untold extra pollution both on the ground and in the air and will cost
taxpayers a fortune? Then hand over Hex"

Part of the problem with that, is the main reason for HEx is to abstract
traffic from black cabs, aiming at the market for whom it's "A cab or
the Airport Express", and whatever you do to try to persuade them to use
what feels to a visitor like the local metro, doesn't deliver.

Possibly, but I would guess that the majority of people who would prefer to
take a train to central london don't want to pay extortionate fares only to be
dumped at paddington.

If anything a new 3rd runway will need HEx even more, to deliver the
pollution reduction targets.

Given an airliner can use anything up to a ton of fuel (747) just to taxi
around a large airport such as Heathrow , the contribution of ground traffic
to the overall pollution increase that the 3rd runway will cause is probably
negligable.

In message , at 15:12:21 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 13:17:14 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:25:15 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:

(a) it would involve buying-out Heathrow's private infrastructure and
somehow compensating them for the lost premium fare revenue on HEx

An easier way would be to make it part of the condition for a 3rd runway.
"You want a runway that will blight the lives of millions of londoners,
cause untold extra pollution both on the ground and in the air and will cost
taxpayers a fortune? Then hand over Hex"

Part of the problem with that, is the main reason for HEx is to abstract
traffic from black cabs, aiming at the market for whom it's "A cab or
the Airport Express", and whatever you do to try to persuade them to use
what feels to a visitor like the local metro, doesn't deliver.

Possibly, but I would guess that the majority of people who would prefer to
take a train to central london don't want to pay extortionate fares only to be
dumped at paddington.

The same is true of the destination of any "Airport Express" train (or
indeed coach). But the point is those travellers now feel comfortable
because they are safely "in the big city".

If anything a new 3rd runway will need HEx even more, to deliver the
pollution reduction targets.

Given an airliner can use anything up to a ton of fuel (747) just to taxi
around a large airport such as Heathrow ,

Divided by the number of passengers then leaving by road.

the contribution of ground traffic
to the overall pollution increase that the 3rd runway will cause is probably
negligable.

Apparently not, and hence the need for the airport to go to
extraordinary measures, like building HEx in the first place,
to meet the targets.
--
Roland Perry