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#1
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Local/Express bus routes
On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:26:14 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
c) how to deal with the very strong competition provided by the rail and tube network. The answer is that they should not. Why? Well, what's the point in running parallel with railway lines, except where necessary to get beyond the railway line? In fact, I'd propose the best solution for the latter would be to run an express service from the end of the railway line to the ultimate destination. Express bus services are really best filling in where the railway does not serve. That said, Hamburg[1] takes a different approach; direct, express buses to and from the city centre do duplicate some railway lines, but at a supplementary fare of (I think) EUR 1. They are provided with high-quality, low-density seating and are treated as "first class". [1] Yes, I mention it a lot - but I feel it has one of the best practical examples of a properly-run public transport network including most modes (though admittedly not trams) and is a fine example to Britain. It's also one I had the chance to use over a period of 9 months, which is enough to get a decent impression of its strengths and weaknesses. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK Mail me on neil at the above domain; mail to the above address is NOT read |
#2
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On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:26:14 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: c) how to deal with the very strong competition provided by the rail and tube network. The answer is that they should not. Why? Well, what's the point in running parallel with railway lines, except where necessary to get beyond the railway line? Hear hear. That said, Hamburg[1] takes a different approach; direct, express buses to and from the city centre do duplicate some railway lines, but at a supplementary fare of (I think) EUR 1. They are provided with high-quality, low-density seating and are treated as "first class". What do you mean by a 'supplementary fare'? You mean that the duplicating buses are more expensive than standard buses? But are thus still cheaper than the train, while being as nice and not a lot slower? [1] Yes, I mention it a lot No need to apologise - i think we're all fairly open-minded here. but I feel it has one of the best practical examples of a properly-run public transport network including most modes (though admittedly not trams) and is a fine example to Britain. Although it remains true that they do not like it up them. tom -- Throw bricks at lawyers if you can! |
#3
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:54:56 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:
What do you mean by a 'supplementary fare'? You mean that the duplicating buses are more expensive than standard buses? But are thus still cheaper than the train, while being as nice and not a lot slower? No, they are more comfortable than the train, and more expensive (EUR1 or so on top of the standard fare). The idea is that they save you having to change, but you are charged for the privilege, mainly because of the limited capacity. They aren't always that quick. It's worth bearing in mind that the number of bus routes entering central Hamburg can probably be counted on the fingers of both hands. The public transport system is geared up such that buses mainly provide links from non-rail-served locations to the nearest rail station, as well as quieter circumferential routes, with the Schnellbusse (express) and Nachtbusse (night) being a separate, largely radial network "on top" of the rail network. This supplement is also charged for night buses. The difference in bus and train fares seems to be a British thing - in the German Verkehrsverbuende (like TfL or the PTEs) there is no differential - your ticket is valid for a through journey, with connections if desired, on any or all of the available modes of transport. There isn't a "train fare" or a "bus fare", just a "public transport fare". Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK Mail me on neil at the above domain; mail to the above address is NOT read |
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On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:54:56 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: What do you mean by a 'supplementary fare'? You mean that the duplicating buses are more expensive than standard buses? But are thus still cheaper than the train, while being as nice and not a lot slower? No, they are more comfortable than the train, and more expensive (EUR1 or so on top of the standard fare). The idea is that they save you having to change, but you are charged for the privilege, mainly because of the limited capacity. They aren't always that quick. Crumbs. The idea of a road vehicle being *higher* status than a train is pretty radical! It's worth bearing in mind that the number of bus routes entering central Hamburg can probably be counted on the fingers of both hands. The public transport system is geared up such that buses mainly provide links from non-rail-served locations to the nearest rail station, as well as quieter circumferential routes, with the Schnellbusse (express) and Nachtbusse (night) being a separate, largely radial network "on top" of the rail network. Sounds extremely sensible. The difference in bus and train fares seems to be a British thing - in the German Verkehrsverbuende (like TfL or the PTEs) there is no differential - your ticket is valid for a through journey, with connections if desired, on any or all of the available modes of transport. There isn't a "train fare" or a "bus fare", just a "public transport fare". Also extremely sensible. Ein Stadt, Ein Verkehrsverbund, Ein Fahrpreis! tom -- Dude, read Aquinas if you want intelligent. This is the internet. |
#5
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"Tom Anderson" wrote in message ... On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Neil Williams wrote: On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:54:56 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: snipitty The difference in bus and train fares seems to be a British thing - in the German Verkehrsverbuende (like TfL or the PTEs) there is no differential - your ticket is valid for a through journey, with connections if desired, on any or all of the available modes of transport. There isn't a "train fare" or a "bus fare", just a "public transport fare". Also extremely sensible. Ein Stadt, Ein Verkehrsverbund, Ein Fahrpreis! tom Funny you should say that, I have in front of me the current Munich public transport map and printed beneath the MVV logo it has, "1 Netz. 1 Fahrplan. 1 Tarif." As a comparison with UK pricing, an all zone one day ticket (called a Single Tageskarte - Gesamtnetz) is ?9.00, whilst the same ticket but valid for up to 5 people (with children between 6 & 14 counting as half a person and called a Partner Tageskarte - Gesamtnetz) is ?16.00. Which if my maths is correct makes the one person ticket about 6 quid and about ten and a half quid for the five person one, which, for a family is a bit of a bargin. -- Cheers, Steve. If The Good Lord had meant for us to be fiscally prudent, He would not have given us the platinum credit card... Change colour to PC Plod's lights to reply. |
#6
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"Steve Dulieu" wrote in message ... "Tom Anderson" wrote in message ... On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Neil Williams wrote: On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:54:56 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: snipitty The difference in bus and train fares seems to be a British thing - in the German Verkehrsverbuende (like TfL or the PTEs) there is no differential - your ticket is valid for a through journey, with connections if desired, on any or all of the available modes of transport. There isn't a "train fare" or a "bus fare", just a "public transport fare". Also extremely sensible. Ein Stadt, Ein Verkehrsverbund, Ein Fahrpreis! tom Funny you should say that, I have in front of me the current Munich public transport map and printed beneath the MVV logo it has, "1 Netz. 1 Fahrplan. 1 Tarif." As a comparison with UK pricing, an all zone one day ticket (called a Single Tageskarte - Gesamtnetz) is ?9.00, whilst the same ticket but valid for up to 5 people (with children between 6 & 14 counting as half a person and called a Partner Tageskarte - Gesamtnetz) is ?16.00. Which if my maths is correct makes the one person ticket about 6 quid and about ten and a half quid for the five person one, which, for a family is a bit of a bargin. Thats 9 and 16 euros, knew it was a mistake to use the symbols... -- Cheers, Steve. If The Good Lord had meant for us to be fiscally prudent, He would not have given us the platinum credit card... Change colour to PC Plod's lights to reply. |
#7
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In article , Neil
Williams writes The difference in bus and train fares seems to be a British thing - in the German Verkehrsverbuende (like TfL or the PTEs) there is no differential - your ticket is valid for a through journey, with connections if desired, on any or all of the available modes of transport. There isn't a "train fare" or a "bus fare", just a "public transport fare". A good example being my recent trip to Dusseldorf - the area has exactly three fares, called A, B, and C. A single B ticket[*] was good for a journey consisting of: * tram through suburban streets, which turned into pre-Metro through the central area to the Hbf; * rail to Wuppertal; * monorail along the river a bit; * (if I'd wanted) bus into the suburbs. A second B ticket got me on the monorail, two trains, and the strange Skytrain thing back to the airport. [*] Bought on the tram, incidentally. -- Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |
#8
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Neil Williams schrieb:
This supplement is also charged for night buses. This is no longer true. Night buses now cost the same as any other vehicle. Also, if you have a one day travelcard this will get you around for one day, and it will still be valid on all night buses the following night. Currently plans are made to run the inner parts of the rail network all night at weekend nights, bringing Hamburg to the same level as "major" cities like Berlin, Heidelberg and Hannover. |
#9
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Tom Anderson schrieb:
[Hamburg express buses] What do you mean by a 'supplementary fare'? You mean that the duplicating buses are more expensive than standard buses? But are thus still cheaper than the train, while being as nice and not a lot slower? Standard bus and train cost the same. You don't buy a ticket for a mode of transport but you buy a ticket from A to B, including trains (everything that runs on rails excluding intercity services), buses and ferrys as necessary, all for the same price. Its only if you want a Schnellbus (possibly duplicating a railway) or you want to travel first class on the mainline railway that you have to pay 1,05 Euro for a supplement. And, in my opinion, the Schellbus is of course less comfortable than any train. |
#10
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Local/Express bus routes
On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:34:24 +0100, Neil Williams
wrote: On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:26:14 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: c) how to deal with the very strong competition provided by the rail and tube network. The answer is that they should not. Why? Well, what's the point in running parallel with railway lines, except where necessary to get beyond the railway line? In fact, I'd propose the best solution for the latter would be to run an express service from the end of the railway line to the ultimate destination. Express bus services are really best filling in where the railway does not serve. But the original poster was proposing an express version of route 48 which runs between Walthamstow Central and Liverpool St virtually parallel to the "One" overground line. The bus does run on to London Bridge. It also stops at almost all the same places as the train service barring St James St and Bethnal Green. You deleted my text which referred to the waste / duplication of resources argument which would fall foul of the strategic direction given to TfL. Also in times of constrained budgets it would not make a lot of sense. That said, Hamburg[1] takes a different approach; direct, express buses to and from the city centre do duplicate some railway lines, but at a supplementary fare of (I think) EUR 1. They are provided with high-quality, low-density seating and are treated as "first class". Which is similar to the long distance bus routes in Hong Kong. These typically run at a premium fare but in the few cases where there is a parallel with the rail system they remain cheaper than rail. Commuter bus routes (from the outer Boroughs into Manhatten) in New York also charge a premium fare and to use them on a regular basis you need an upgraded and more expensive Metrocard. Do the Hamburg express buses run only at peak times or all the time? -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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