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Electric buses at waterloo
There was an article in the Evening Standard last night about the bus garage
near waterloo that has europes largest fleet of battery electric buses. Apparently they had to install their own "generator". Now knowing the quality of journalism in the standard I wonder if they meant generator or substation because if its the former it completely defeats the point of having electric buses in central london if a generator is just shoving out diesel fumes in their place (and probably more due to inefficiencies with battery charging). Anyone know which it is? |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 3:04:30 PM UTC+1, wrote:
There was an article in the Evening Standard last night about the bus garage near waterloo that has europes largest fleet of battery electric buses. Apparently they had to install their own "generator". .... I read that article too, according to this press release (link below) from 2016 the charging power comes from the grid. Not a local generator. https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...n.html#art-top |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:10:30 -0700 (PDT)
John Leach wrote: On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 3:04:30 PM UTC+1, wrote: There was an article in the Evening Standard last night about the bus garage near waterloo that has europes largest fleet of battery electric buses. Apparently they had to install their own "generator". .... I read that article too, according to this press release (link below) from 2016 the charging power comes from the grid. Not a local generator. https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...s-releases/Ele ctric-buses-are-breath-of-fresh-air-for-London.html#art-top I suspected it would be something like that. Installing a generator would seem to defeat the point of having electric buses. |
Electric buses at waterloo
On 12/07/2018 16:21, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:10:30 -0700 (PDT) John Leach wrote: On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 3:04:30 PM UTC+1, wrote: There was an article in the Evening Standard last night about the bus garage near waterloo that has europes largest fleet of battery electric buses. Apparently they had to install their own "generator". .... I read that article too, according to this press release (link below) from 2016 the charging power comes from the grid. Not a local generator. https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...s-releases/Ele ctric-buses-are-breath-of-fresh-air-for-London.html#art-top I suspected it would be something like that. Installing a generator would seem to defeat the point of having electric buses. Not necessarily. A combined heat and power system could work out both more efficient and less polluting than 50-odd diesel engines running most of the time at far from peak efficiency. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Electric buses at waterloo
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:10:30 -0700 (PDT) John Leach wrote: On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 3:04:30 PM UTC+1, wrote: There was an article in the Evening Standard last night about the bus garage near waterloo that has europes largest fleet of battery electric buses. Apparently they had to install their own "generator". .... I read that article too, according to this press release (link below) from 2016 the charging power comes from the grid. Not a local generator. https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...s/press-releas es/Ele ctric-buses-are-breath-of-fresh-air-for-London.html#art-top I suspected it would be something like that. Installing a generator would seem to defeat the point of having electric buses. For a more detailed view see Ian Visits https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2018/06/26/do-londoners-dream-of-electric-buses/ "They also needed 2.5 megawatts of electricity to recharge the buses overnight — although the use of smart monitoring means they never reach that full load. In comes 11,000 volts to two new substations on the site, which is then dropped down to 400 volts and sent via two routes to the various charging points around the depot. Four fast chargers at 800 volts are also available if needed." -- Mark |
Electric buses at waterloo
In message , at 22:59:39 on
Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Mark Bestley remarked: wrote: On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:10:30 -0700 (PDT) John Leach wrote: On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 3:04:30 PM UTC+1, wrote: There was an article in the Evening Standard last night about the bus garage near waterloo that has europes largest fleet of battery electric buses. Apparently they had to install their own "generator". .... I read that article too, according to this press release (link below) from 2016 the charging power comes from the grid. Not a local generator. https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...s/press-releas es/Ele ctric-buses-are-breath-of-fresh-air-for-London.html#art-top I suspected it would be something like that. Installing a generator would seem to defeat the point of having electric buses. For a more detailed view see Ian Visits https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/201...dream-of-elect ric-buses/ "They also needed 2.5 megawatts of electricity to recharge the buses overnight — although the use of smart monitoring means they never reach that full load. In comes 11,000 volts to two new substations on the site, which is then dropped down to 400 volts and sent via two routes to the various charging points around the depot. 2.5 megawatts at 400 volts is 6,250 amps! But I suppose it's only one and a half Eurostars. Four fast chargers at 800 volts are also available if needed." -- Roland Perry |
Electric buses at waterloo
On 13/07/2018 08:09, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:59:39 on Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Mark Bestley remarked: In comes 11,000 volts to two new substations on the site, which is then dropped down to 400 volts and sent via two routes to the various charging points around the depot. 2.5 megawatts at 400 volts is 6,250 amps! But I suppose it's only one and a half Eurostars. Not even a quarter of a Eurostar. They draw 16 megawatts flat out. Another good argument against HS2, as a normal train only draws a quarter of that. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
Electric buses at waterloo
In message , at 08:57:53 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 08:09, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 22:59:39 on Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Mark Bestley remarked: In comes 11,000 volts to two new substations on the site, which is then dropped down to 400 volts and sent via two routes to the various charging points around the depot. 2.5 megawatts at 400 volts is 6,250 amps! But I suppose it's only one and a half Eurostars. Not even a quarter of a Eurostar. They draw 16 megawatts flat out. Only on 25kV, look again at its consumption on DC, and it's the amps I'm highlighting anyway. -- Roland Perry |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:03:47 +0100
Robin wrote: On 12/07/2018 16:21, wrote: On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:10:30 -0700 (PDT) John Leach wrote: On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 3:04:30 PM UTC+1, wrote: There was an article in the Evening Standard last night about the bus garage near waterloo that has europes largest fleet of battery electric buses. Apparently they had to install their own "generator". .... I read that article too, according to this press release (link below) from 2016 the charging power comes from the grid. Not a local generator. https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...s-releases/Ele ctric-buses-are-breath-of-fresh-air-for-London.html#art-top I suspected it would be something like that. Installing a generator would seem to defeat the point of having electric buses. Not necessarily. A combined heat and power system could work out both more efficient and less polluting than 50-odd diesel engines running most of the time at far from peak efficiency. True, but don't forget you have battery charging losses. |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:27:30 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:57:53 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 08:09, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 22:59:39 on Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Mark Bestley remarked: In comes 11,000 volts to two new substations on the site, which is then dropped down to 400 volts and sent via two routes to the various charging points around the depot. 2.5 megawatts at 400 volts is 6,250 amps! But I suppose it's only one and a half Eurostars. Not even a quarter of a Eurostar. They draw 16 megawatts flat out. Only on 25kV, look again at its consumption on DC, and it's the amps I'm highlighting anyway. I wonder if the old eurostars have any of their DC equipment still on board? If they do perhaps they could solve the overcrowding issues on Southern and south eastern instead of being scrapped! :) |
Electric buses at waterloo
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Electric buses at waterloo
On 13/07/2018 10:27, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:57:53 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: Not even a quarter of a Eurostar. They draw 16 megawatts flat out. Only on 25kV, look again at its consumption on DC, and it's the amps I'm highlighting anyway. The lower power and speed restrictions on the third rail sections of the original route was a deliberate restriction to prevent overload damage to the ageing trackside equipment and speed related damage to the collection shoes. As the third rail shoes have now been removed, this is academic. They used to jog along at 65mph in the UK. accelerate to 85 mph or so for the tunnel, and then to full speed for the French and other parts of the trip. They now do full speed along the HS1 track, slow down to 85 for the tunnel, then accelerate again as they leave it. The traction motors on a Eurostar are rated to draw 12 megawatts per train at start, the garage is drawing a fraction of that. The 12 Eurostar motors are likely running at 600 volts or so, which means they draw about 1,600 Amps each, at a megawatt a pop, but this is only of concern to the designers and engineers. To everyone else, it's a black box system that needs a megawatt per motor at whatever voltage and frequency the pantograph is supplying at the time. What's important to the grid is the input. Your 6,250 Amps for the chargers will be split into chunks of about 200 Amps per bus (at about 600 volts, IIRC), by the distribution network. It will come into the site at about 120 Amps per feed at 11kv. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:14:39 +0100
John Williamson wrote: What's important to the grid is the input. Your 6,250 Amps for the chargers will be split into chunks of about 200 Amps per bus (at about 600 volts, IIRC), by the distribution network. It will come into the site at about 120 Amps per feed at 11kv. Is 11KV the standard voltage for distribution within UK cities? I wonder why they chose that particular value. Just curious... |
Electric buses at waterloo
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Electric buses at waterloo
In message , at 11:14:39 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: The traction motors on a Eurostar are rated to draw 12 megawatts per train at start, the garage is drawing a fraction of that. The 12 Eurostar motors are likely running at 600 volts or so, which means they draw about 1,600 Amps each, at a megawatt a pop, but this is only of concern to the designers and engineers. To everyone else, it's a black box system that needs a megawatt per motor at whatever voltage and frequency the pantograph is supplying at the time. But the DC power supply wasn't capable of 19,200 amps! What's important to the grid is the input. Your 6,250 Amps for the chargers will be split into chunks of about 200 Amps per bus (at about 600 volts, IIRC), I used the 400 volts quoted earlier (which is highly likely to be the same stuff that you've called 415 volts; three phase). We don't know how many blocks of chargers that'll be split into, but thirty at 200 amps each for two buses each seems rather spaghetti-like. by the distribution network. It will come into the site at about 120 Amps per feed at 11kv. The copper I'm admiring is that carrying the 6,250 amps (for however far before branching off to individual blocks of chargers). -- Roland Perry |
Electric buses at waterloo
On 13/07/2018 10:51, John Williamson wrote:
On 13/07/2018 10:36, wrote: Not necessarily.Â* A combined heat and power system could work out both more efficient and less polluting than 50-odd diesel engines running most of the time at far from peak efficiency. True, but don't forget you have battery charging losses. You also need a use for the waste heat, which is unlikely in a bus depot, especially in Summer. Making the tea? -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Electric buses at waterloo
On 13/07/2018 10:51, John Williamson wrote:
On 13/07/2018 10:36, wrote: Not necessarily.* A combined heat and power system could work out both more efficient and less polluting than 50-odd diesel engines running most of the time at far from peak efficiency. True, but don't forget you have battery charging losses. You also need a use for the waste heat, which is unlikely in a bus depot, especially in Summer. Yes, CHP often works best as an area heating scheme. I'd thought redevelopment was planned in that area which would offer scope. If not, TfL could at least offer really, really warm seats on buses entering service at Waterloo :) -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:53:44 +0100
John Williamson wrote: On 13/07/2018 11:37, wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:14:39 +0100 John Williamson wrote: What's important to the grid is the input. Your 6,250 Amps for the chargers will be split into chunks of about 200 Amps per bus (at about 600 volts, IIRC), by the distribution network. It will come into the site at about 120 Amps per feed at 11kv. Is 11KV the standard voltage for distribution within UK cities? I wonder why they chose that particular value. Just curious... If you check, there is a whole network of different standard voltages starting with the 400kV supergrid, right down to the 415 Volt 3 phase plus neutral feeder that runs under or over your street, with branches off to give a single phase 230 Volt supply to your house or flat. 240V isn't it or did it get dropped down at some point? |
Electric buses at waterloo
|
Electric buses at waterloo
On 13/07/2018 15:51, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:53:44 +0100 John Williamson wrote: On 13/07/2018 11:37, wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:14:39 +0100 John Williamson wrote: What's important to the grid is the input. Your 6,250 Amps for the chargers will be split into chunks of about 200 Amps per bus (at about 600 volts, IIRC), by the distribution network. It will come into the site at about 120 Amps per feed at 11kv. Is 11KV the standard voltage for distribution within UK cities? I wonder why they chose that particular value. Just curious... If you check, there is a whole network of different standard voltages starting with the 400kV supergrid, right down to the 415 Volt 3 phase plus neutral feeder that runs under or over your street, with branches off to give a single phase 230 Volt supply to your house or flat. 240V isn't it or did it get dropped down at some point? Quite a while ago. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Electric buses at waterloo
In message , at 11:53:44 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: If you check, there is a whole network of different standard voltages starting with the 400kV supergrid, right down to the 415 Volt 3 phase plus neutral feeder that runs under or over your street, with branches off to give a single phase 230 Volt supply to your house or flat. In general terms, the current at each stage is similar. Broadly true, apart from the supergrid being 1000A, as far as I can tell. What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? -- Roland Perry |
Electric buses at waterloo
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:
What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
Electric buses at waterloo
Most distribution Voltages in the UK are 10% higher than nice round numbers.. 11 and 33 kV are widely used, 66 kV for some large substations. 22 kV is not much used in the UK, more common on the mainland, but the London Underground has quite a bit of it, I think because joints in 33 kV were too large.
6.6 kV is still used, though becomming less common. Quite a lot of Croydon is still fed ay that Voltage. |
Electric buses at waterloo
In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. -- Roland Perry |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. The future is hydrogen. -- jhk |
Electric buses at waterloo
On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. The future is hydrogen. As it has been for 50 years… -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote: On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. The future is hydrogen. As it has been for 50 years… 50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/john-o%E2%80%99groats-land%E2%80%99s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car |
Electric buses at waterloo
On 14/07/2018 13:31, Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. The future is hydrogen. As it has been for 50 years… 50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/john-o%E2%80%99groats-land%E2%80%99s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car You could have done, though I don't know if anyone ever did. Also possible in a gas-turbine car and one or two other exotic beasts around that time. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Electric buses at waterloo
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 14/07/2018 13:31, Recliner wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. The future is hydrogen. As it has been for 50 years… 50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/john-o%E2%80%99groats-land%E2%80%99s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car You could have done, though I don't know if anyone ever did. Also possible in a gas-turbine car and one or two other exotic beasts around that time. No, you couldn't have done it then with a hydrogen-powered car, both because they didn't exist and fhere weren't any hydrogen filling stations. As of 2018, there are only just enough filling stations around the country for a slightly indirect route; next year should be easier, as more hydrogen filling stations open. |
Electric buses at waterloo
On 14/07/2018 20:26, Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: On 14/07/2018 13:31, Recliner wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. The future is hydrogen. As it has been for 50 years… 50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/john-o%E2%80%99groats-land%E2%80%99s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car You could have done, though I don't know if anyone ever did. Also possible in a gas-turbine car and one or two other exotic beasts around that time. No, you couldn't have done it then with a hydrogen-powered car, both because they didn't exist and fhere weren't any hydrogen filling stations. No filling stations certainly, but the odd experimental vehicle. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Electric buses at waterloo
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 14/07/2018 20:26, Recliner wrote: Graeme Wall wrote: On 14/07/2018 13:31, Recliner wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. The future is hydrogen. As it has been for 50 years… 50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/john-o%E2%80%99groats-land%E2%80%99s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car You could have done, though I don't know if anyone ever did. Also possible in a gas-turbine car and one or two other exotic beasts around that time. No, you couldn't have done it then with a hydrogen-powered car, both because they didn't exist and fhere weren't any hydrogen filling stations. No filling stations certainly, but the odd experimental vehicle. Were there any hydrogen-powered cars back then? I don't think so. There certainly weren't any fuel-cell cars, let alone any hydrogen cars with a good range. Now, you can do it in off-the-shelf, standard, unmodified hydrogen cars from multiple manufacturers, refuelling at commercial hydrogen filling stations along the way. No need for any back-up vehicle, and no laboratories involved. I think 2018 was the first year it was possible, but even now, the route takes careful planning. It'll soon be much easier, as more hydrogen filling stations open. |
Electric buses at waterloo
Recliner wrote:
Were there any hydrogen-powered cars back then? I don't think so. There certainly weren't any fuel-cell cars, let alone any hydrogen cars with a good range. The first hydrogen car is recorded as prototyped in 1807. However some Russian trucks from 1941 sound rather more plausible: http://naukarus.com/the-mysterious-i...drogen-century using an interesting fuel source - degraded hydrogen from lowered barrage balloons. If it was WWII you might have been able to cobble together a route going past enough barrage balloon stations to make it work. Theo |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. It seems to me the whole charging problem of mass ownership of electric cars has been kicked into the long grass. As usual politicians will only react when they have to when the load on the grid either local or national becomes critical whereupon headless chicken mode will be engaged. |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:31:15 +0100
Recliner wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use, an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's use. The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it becomes just as much in demand as "peak". 3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though. Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps 1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses. Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v) will get their supply from. The future is hydrogen. As it has been for 50 years… 50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...s-land%E2%80%9 9s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car The physics hasn't changed in 50 years. I read somewhere (can't find it) that using hydrogen for energy is so inefficient with our current grid of mixed fossil fuel power stations that you'd create a lot less total CO2 just using a diesel vehicle though far better to use the electricity you waste on creating H2 just to convert it back to electricity again to charge a battery vehicle. Also hydrogen is hard to transport and store in large amounts and requires a lot of electricity to compress it over and above that required to create it from water or (even worse) steamed out of natural gas in the first place. |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 04:09:03PM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? They won't all need to fully recharge a car every night. Of the many cars parked on a street, plenty of them just aren't used most days. And of those that are used on any given day, plenty aren't used much - just a trip to the shops, or the school run, or to a nearby employer. -- David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness Only some sort of ghastly dehumanised moron would want to get rid of Routemasters -- Ken Livingstone, four years before he got rid of 'em |
Electric buses at waterloo
In message , at 12:08:38
on Mon, 16 Jul 2018, David Cantrell remarked: What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps? They won't all need to fully recharge a car every night. Of the many cars parked on a street, plenty of them just aren't used most days. And of those that are used on any given day, plenty aren't used much - just a trip to the shops, or the school run, or to a nearby employer. This depends a lot on the local demographic. There are plenty of estates where at least one breadwinner per household is likely to drive to work (and the national average commute is 67% by car, 30mins). Where I live that's dominated by the 35 mile round trip to Cambridge, unless they take the fastest route which is 50 miles round trip. -- Roland Perry |
Electric buses at waterloo
On 16/07/2018 12:29, Roland Perry wrote:
Where I live that's dominated by the 35 mile round trip to Cambridge, unless they take the fastest route which is 50 miles round trip. At least with electric cars, there's a real incentive to take the most fuel efficient route, so you don't need to charge every night. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
Electric buses at waterloo
In message , at 13:36:13 on Mon, 16
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: Where I live that's dominated by the 35 mile round trip to Cambridge, unless they take the fastest route which is 50 miles round trip. At least with electric cars, there's a real incentive to take the most fuel efficient route, so you don't need to charge every night. I'm not sure how an individual balances the prospect of getting a sufficient overnight charge, with sitting in a worse traffic jam in order to eke out the battery on the way to/from work. -- Roland Perry |
Electric buses at waterloo
On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 13:42:22 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:36:13 on Mon, 16 Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked: Where I live that's dominated by the 35 mile round trip to Cambridge, unless they take the fastest route which is 50 miles round trip. At least with electric cars, there's a real incentive to take the most fuel efficient route, so you don't need to charge every night. I'm not sure how an individual balances the prospect of getting a sufficient overnight charge, with sitting in a worse traffic jam in order to eke out the battery on the way to/from work. Stop-start traffic isn't efficient even in an electric car because usually the vehicle is moving too slowly for regeneration to be effective. They could well be better off taking the longer route. |
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