(Nick Cooper) wrote in message ...

By October? Unrealistic expectations?!
--
Nick Cooper

They may be unrealistic but the act has been known about for years. I
have no doubt that TFL / LUL have staff dedicated to this sole subject
so if things have not been prepared then . . .

Does anyone know if work has / is / will be done ? I know the politics
of this subject are far greater than the trivial way I reply and is an
emotive subject for both sides, I show an "interest" as my partner
works in this field and have many long and intersting "discussions"
with her.

Fat Richard

(Fat Richard) wrote in message . com...
(Nick Cooper) wrote in message ...

By October? Unrealistic expectations?!
--
Nick Cooper

They may be unrealistic but the act has been known about for years. I
have no doubt that TFL / LUL have staff dedicated to this sole subject
so if things have not been prepared then . . .

Well exactly. Of course it's unrealistic *now*, but in the USA
disabled people have been able to sue over access since the mid-1970s,
and as a result there is far more awareness and accessibility over
there. LU must have known that things were going the same way here;
they've just chosen to prioritise other things. Doubtless this was
the correct course of action; no one, not even a wheelchair user, can
use the tube if the signals are screwed up, but to say that this issue
has crept up on LU unawares is simply untrue.

Does anyone know if work has / is / will be done ? I know the politics
of this subject are far greater than the trivial way I reply and is an
emotive subject for both sides, I show an "interest" as my partner
works in this field and have many long and intersting "discussions"
with her.

I would suggest that the huge steps being taken towards making all
buses fully accessible to wheelchair users are London Transport's
response to the Disability Discrimination Act; ok, wheelchair users
can't take the tube, but accessible transport is provided, will be the
defence in court.

What I find more annoying is the fact that the lifts on the JLE, which
was specifically designed with accessibility in mind, are constantly
out of order...

Patrick

In article ,
The Only Living Boy in New Cross wrote:
Well exactly. Of course it's unrealistic *now*, but in the USA
disabled people have been able to sue over access since the mid-1970s,
and as a result there is far more awareness and accessibility over
there. LU must have known that things were going the same way here;

Indeed, a friend of my parents who is in a chair had a Churchill
Fellowship to the US in the seventies to look at this issue. Of course,
it's a social shift that has a lot of relationship to guilt over Vietnam
and improvements in battlefield medicine: there was a sudden rise in the
number of wheelchair using young men who were otherwise fit, politicised
and politically significant. How much of the wheelchair access to, say,
BART is practical if you don't have the upper body strength of a fit
young man who is the victim of an injury (as oppposed, say, to
progressive wasting from MS) is an interesting issue. Wheelchair users
are not, by and large, the wheelchair users one sees doing the London
Marathon, but have multiple other issues.

ian

Ian G Batten wrote:

In article , The Only
Living Boy in New Cross wrote:
Well exactly. Of course it's unrealistic *now*, but in the USA disabled
people have been able to sue over access since the mid-1970s, and as a
result there is far more awareness and accessibility over there. LU
must have known that things were going the same way here;

Indeed, a friend of my parents who is in a chair had a Churchill
Fellowship to the US in the seventies to look at this issue. Of course,
it's a social shift that has a lot of relationship to guilt over Vietnam
and improvements in battlefield medicine: there was a sudden rise in the
number of wheelchair using young men who were otherwise fit, politicised
and politically significant. How much of the wheelchair access to, say,
BART is practical if you don't have the upper body strength of a fit young
man who is the victim of an injury (as oppposed, say, to progressive
wasting from MS) is an interesting issue. Wheelchair users are not, by
and large, the wheelchair users one sees doing the London Marathon, but
have multiple other issues.

To be honest it raises the whole issue of whether such people should be
using the tube at all. Let's face it, even with lifts and ramps a wheelchair
is the last thing needed on a busy tube platform or train even outside of
rush hour.
Given that there is plenty of access to other transport options, I think
some sense of balance is needed. For example, would subsidising taxis for
these people be more cost effective than digging lift shafts and altering
the layout in Victorian underground structures? Almost certainly.
What will suing the tube actually achieve? Some cash for the folks in
wheelchairs but less money available to actually do the work they are
demanding. Crazy.
It has to be accepted that the Tube was never designed for disabled people
and that altering it would be prohibitively expensive for little real gain.
I know that's a very harsh view, but that's life. If you end up in a
wheelchair, yes it's very tragic but you can't go around expecting the rest
of the world to change so that you can live exactly the same life you did
before.

IMHO

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:34:03 +0100, Robert R News wrote:

Ian G Batten wrote:

To be honest it raises the whole issue of whether such people should be
using the tube at all. Let's face it, even with lifts and ramps a wheelchair
is the last thing needed on a busy tube platform or train even outside of
rush hour.
Have a trip on the Jubilee Line Extension sometime.

Or better still, choose any Tube line and have a rant at young mothers and
fathers with baby buggies.

Or better still, choose any Tube line and have a rant at young mothers and
fathers with baby buggies.

I'm sure everyone would be most happy to allow such contraptions onto
the tube in rush hour if a triple fare is charged for each one to
compensate for the three adult standing places it takes up.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:58:31 -0700, James wrote:

Or better still, choose any Tube line and have a rant at young mothers and
fathers with baby buggies.

I'm sure everyone would be most happy to allow such contraptions onto
the tube in rush hour if a triple fare is charged for each one to
compensate for the three adult standing places it takes up.
And prams are banned on Tubes in rush hour?

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 at 08:30:36, The Only Living Boy in New Cross
wrote:


What I find more annoying is the fact that the lifts on the JLE, which
was specifically designed with accessibility in mind, are constantly
out of order...

And when they are in order, they ponk of pee....
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 8 March 2004

Annabel Smyth wrote the following in:


On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 at 08:30:36, The Only Living Boy in New Cross
wrote:


What I find more annoying is the fact that the lifts on the JLE,
which was specifically designed with accessibility in mind, are
constantly out of order...

And when they are in order, they ponk of pee....

Not in my experience. I've used quite a few while travelling with my
folded bike and they generally seem fairly nice and clean. Even the
ones in West Ham are nice, and if the people of West Ham can keep the
lifts clean surely anywhere else can!

On the subjects of the JLE lifts, does anyone else find the man who
does the announcments on all of them funny sounding? The way he says
"PLEASE DO NOT OBSTRUCT THE DOORS! STAND CLEAR OF THE DOORS PLEASE." is
really very odd.

--
message by Robin May, enforcer of sod's law.
"Dust Hill guy likes the Gordon clock"

"You MUST NOT drive dangerously" - the Highway Code
Spelling lesson: then and than are different words.

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 at 12:39:58, Robin May
wrote:

Annabel Smyth wrote the following in:


And when they are in order, they ponk of pee....

Not in my experience. I've used quite a few while travelling with my
folded bike and they generally seem fairly nice and clean. Even the
ones in West Ham are nice, and if the people of West Ham can keep the
lifts clean surely anywhere else can!

Canning Town can't, if the expressions on the faces of the three young
people who used the lift yesterday were anything to go by!

On the subjects of the JLE lifts, does anyone else find the man who
does the announcments on all of them funny sounding? The way he says
"PLEASE DO NOT OBSTRUCT THE DOORS! STAND CLEAR OF THE DOORS PLEASE." is
really very odd.

Haven't been on a JLE lift yet, only DLR ones - which did ponk of pee!
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 8 March 2004