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cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
"Arthur Conan Doyle" wrote in message news:nr1a1e1g4aqi3avoqad0k43dv3o0ii3cdd@None... "tim..." wrote: and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls? Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make that an expensive option. precisely! the rental company charge you 30 dollars for a 3 dollar toll, that you would have happily paid some other way if you could. it really shouldn't be like that (As in, the problems likely to be encountered by the uses of rental cars should have a solution engineered in to the system) tim |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 10:50:11 on Sat, 15 Dec 2018, tim... remarked: the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for). I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough. surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can set up an online account that does all this Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip. you haven't thought that through, have you If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go through that account anyway telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for institutional purposes isn't going go down too well BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to the post pay option (and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg) tim |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
"Robin" wrote in message ... Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this Well I suppose they'll provide the website if you don't know it already. It's the one I gave you a link for where it states "you can set up an electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days after you travel on a toll road". I assume that rental companies supply cars with the tags in place surely most users are going to want this? It's not like I'm going to roll up in my UK registered car, is it? How do I know? I've seen UK registered cars in use in Aus. but not short term visitors, I bet |
cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On 15/12/2018 14:46, tim... wrote:
"Arthur Conan Doyle" wrote in message news:nr1a1e1g4aqi3avoqad0k43dv3o0ii3cdd@None... "tim..." wrote: and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls? Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make that an expensive option. precisely! the rental company charge you 30 dollars for a 3 dollar toll, that you would have happily paid some other way if you could. it really shouldn't be like that (As in, the problems likely to be encountered by the uses of rental cars should have a solution engineered in to the system) Just another form of tourist tax. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On 15/12/2018 15:37, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 15/12/2018 14:46, tim... wrote: "Arthur Conan Doyle" wrote in message news:nr1a1e1g4aqi3avoqad0k43dv3o0ii3cdd@None... "tim..." wrote: and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls? Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make that an expensive option. precisely! precisely wrong: if you heed the warnings and register in advance or within 3 days and pay the tolls there's no surcharge etc whatsoever. the rental company charge you 30 dollars for a 3 dollar toll, that you would have happily paid some other way if you could. it really shouldn't be like that (As in, the problems likely to be encountered by the uses of rental cars should have a solution engineered in to the system) Just another form of tourist tax. no - though it might be said to be a tax on the stupid -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On 15/12/2018 14:58, tim... wrote:
"Robin" wrote in message ... Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this Well I suppose they'll provide the website if you don't know it already. It's the one I gave you a link for where it states "you can set up an electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days after you travel on a toll road". I assume that rental companies supply cars with the tags in place surely most users are going to want this? I assume you either did not read or did not understand my post which included "you can set up an electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days after you travel on a toll road". And did not bother to go to the Sydney site. But I'll try just one last time: a. the cars don't come with tags: that'd mean the rental companies had to allocate the tolls to hirers and collect the money, with scope for arguments about the quantum, and so even more admin costs - costs they'd pass on just like you don't want b. it's down to the renter to register and pay c. only if the renter doesn't pay does the rental company get involved. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
Robin wrote:
precisely wrong: if you heed the warnings and register in advance or within 3 days and pay the tolls there's no surcharge etc whatsoever. Well, sort of. I realize all systems aren't the same. Here's the web page for Colorado E470, the most recent system I've used. https://www.e-470.com/Pages/HowE470W...ntal-Cars.aspx Setting up an Express Toll account does requires the payment of a $35 deposit in advance and you have to add the rental car plate number to the account before driving on the toll road. A bit cumbersome and expensive for one off trips. |
cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
Sigh. And of course after I posted I realized this was a UK group. Never mind.
:( |
cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On 15/12/2018 16:48, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
Sigh. And of course after I posted I realized this was a UK group. Never mind. :( But one currently discussing the Sydney[1] toll roads ;) [1] FTAOD Sydney, Australia - not Nova Scotia -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
In article nr1a1e1g4aqi3avoqad0k43dv3o0ii3cdd@None,
Arthur Conan Doyle wrote: "tim..." wrote: and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls? Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make that an expensive option. That's fairly typical. Unfortunately, I think the transponder rules prohibit moving from car to car. Not in the US. Most US toll transponders can be used in any car, so I have a spare e-zpass that I use in the northeast and a Sunpass I use in Florida. I must not be the only one, since I bought a gizmo on Amazon that clips onto the e-zpass and has a suction cup to stick to the windshield. (The regular attachment is adhesive velcro strips.) Failing that, many cashless tolls have a web site where you can pay by license tag number within a few days. For the toll roads, even if some of the tolls go unpaid, the vast savings in not having staff at the tolls and not having to handle cash more than covers it. -- Regards, John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
In message , at 14:55:08 on Sat, 15 Dec
2018, tim... remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 10:50:11 on Sat, 15 Dec 2018, tim... remarked: the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for). I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough. surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can set up an online account that does all this Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip. you haven't thought that through, have you If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get levied against when the car passes through. so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go through that account anyway telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for institutional purposes isn't going go down too well What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account. BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to the post pay option The postal option is pre-pay too. (and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg) The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders. This sometimes requires imaginative solutions :) and one might be to get two signatures on a cheque and send that the Dart postal service. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Robin wrote: I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it, if only from a passing member of the public. Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just handing over 2 quid, done, drive off... And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here. https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-mo...ges/index.html Who cares what the skippys do. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:49:25 +0000
John Williamson wrote: On 14/12/2018 16:43, wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:10:59 -0000 "tim..." wrote: I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause. There'd be a bit more queuing , but I doubt it would make a huge amount of difference. The regular users would still sail through the non toll sections. You'd need barriers on the non-paying lanes to stop people who need to pay trying to get through the "free" lanes. Then you will get people reversing into the oncoming queue to get to a pay booth. Huh? People would be perfectly free to choose the free lanes if they want, why would you need barriers between them and the voluntary pay by cash gates? |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
"Robin" wrote in message ... On 15/12/2018 14:58, tim... wrote: "Robin" wrote in message ... Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this Well I suppose they'll provide the website if you don't know it already. It's the one I gave you a link for where it states "you can set up an electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days after you travel on a toll road". I assume that rental companies supply cars with the tags in place surely most users are going to want this? I assume you either did not read I read it or did not understand my post which included "you can set up an electronic pass before you leave home not much use for someone whose home is a different country or up to three days after you travel on a toll road". How convenient is this going to be when you are on the road staying in a different Motel each night? And did not bother to go to the Sydney site. and I did this But I'll try just one last time: a. the cars don't come with tags: that'd mean the rental companies had to allocate the tolls to hirers and collect the money, with scope for arguments about the quantum, and so even more admin costs - costs they'd pass on just like you don't want yes I know but my point is that surely they do this, for those people for which getting a pass is too inconvenient (I.e. almost every foreign visitor, which In a country like Oz is going to be a large percentage of renters) That there is an annoying need for the rental companies to administer the charges incurred during the rental period, is the part of the solution that should have been engineered out by the implementation. Foreigners driving rental cars is likely to be a non negligible part of the usage. A user friendly solution should have been engineered in. b. it's down to the renter to register and pay if "setting up an electronic pass" simply means registering a credit card against a reg number, then that's a pretty poor choice of language, IMHO. the term electronic pass implies to me that a piece of hardware is involved. (and the fact that there is information on the website about having to put your own pass in a shielded bag if you get a rental car with a pass confirms that a piece of hardware IS involved) c. only if the renter doesn't pay does the rental company get involved. But how does the casual renter pay? tim |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:55:08 on Sat, 15 Dec 2018, tim... remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 10:50:11 on Sat, 15 Dec 2018, tim... remarked: the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for). I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough. surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can set up an online account that does all this Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip. you haven't thought that through, have you If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get levied against when the car passes through. I have no idea what happens if you try this And I have no intention of finding out. so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go through that account anyway telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for institutional purposes isn't going go down too well What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account. so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then? surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll. BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to the post pay option The postal option is pre-pay too. but as I understand you, only for a specific journey. the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey (and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg) The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders. so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the online account tim |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
wrote in message ... On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000 Robin wrote: I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it, if only from a passing member of the public. Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just handing over 2 quid, done, drive off... And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here. the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the Dartford Toll |
cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
"Robin" wrote in message ... On 15/12/2018 15:37, Graeme Wall wrote: On 15/12/2018 14:46, tim... wrote: "Arthur Conan Doyle" wrote in message news:nr1a1e1g4aqi3avoqad0k43dv3o0ii3cdd@None... "tim..." wrote: and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls? Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make that an expensive option. precisely! precisely wrong: if you heed the warnings and register in advance or within 3 days and pay the tolls there's no surcharge etc whatsoever. ITYF we have moved on here to some US Toll road. tim |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On 16/12/2018 14:30, tim... wrote:
wrote in message ... On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000 Robin wrote: I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it, if only from a passing member of the public. Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just handing over 2 quid, done, drive off... And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here. the French peage are routinely almost empty. You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the area! -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
"Robin" wrote in message ... On 15/12/2018 16:48, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote: Sigh. And of course after I posted I realized this was a UK group. Never mind. :( But one currently discussing the Sydney[1] toll roads ;) [1] FTAOD Sydney, Australia - not Nova Scotia we're just using examples around the world in order to establish a best practice solution to this problem So far. I've yet to see one All of them seem to think that foreigners (whether driving their own car or a rental) are ripe to be ripped off and require no consideration. tim |
cashless tolling, Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
"John Levine" wrote in message ... In article nr1a1e1g4aqi3avoqad0k43dv3o0ii3cdd@None, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote: "tim..." wrote: and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls? Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make that an expensive option. That's fairly typical. Unfortunately, I think the transponder rules prohibit moving from car to car. Not in the US. Most US toll transponders can be used in any car, so I have a spare e-zpass that I use in the northeast and a Sunpass I use in Florida. I must not be the only one, since I bought a gizmo on Amazon that clips onto the e-zpass and has a suction cup to stick to the windshield. (The regular attachment is adhesive velcro strips.) Failing that, many cashless tolls have a web site where you can pay by license tag number within a few days. For the toll roads, even if some of the tolls go unpaid, the vast savings in not having staff at the tolls and not having to handle cash more than covers it. though the important point about rental cars (rather than out of Staters who just go home and ignore postal demands to pay) is that the tolls don't go unpaid But the renter risks gets ripped off as the toll is paid tim |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 16/12/2018 14:30, tim... wrote: wrote in message ... On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000 Robin wrote: I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it, if only from a passing member of the public. Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just handing over 2 quid, done, drive off... And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here. the French peage are routinely almost empty. You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the area! Oh so one day every 5 years negates my point, does it? tim |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On 16/12/2018 16:48, tim... wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 16/12/2018 14:30, tim... wrote: wrote in message ... On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000 Robin wrote: I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it, if only from a passing member of the public. Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just handing over 2 quid, done, drive off... And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here. the French peage are routinely almost empty. You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the area! Oh so one day every 5 years negates my point, does it? Oh dear, and the TdF is every year I believe and takes rather more than one day. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
In message , at 14:29:11 on Sun, 16 Dec
2018, tim... remarked: the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for). I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough. surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can set up an online account that does all this Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip. you haven't thought that through, have you If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get levied against when the car passes through. I have no idea what happens if you try this And I have no intention of finding out. I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too. so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go through that account anyway telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for institutional purposes isn't going go down too well What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account. so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then? surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll. Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary credit. Both of which can be an issue. Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures. BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to the post pay option The postal option is pre-pay too. but as I understand you, only for a specific journey. The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day. the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account. (and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg) The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders. so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the online account On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that 'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:30:24 -0000
"tim..." wrote: wrote in message ... On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000 Robin wrote: I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it, if only from a passing member of the public. Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just handing over 2 quid, done, drive off... And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here. the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a good day. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
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Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
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Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 10:57:08 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote: On 17/12/2018 09:46, wrote: Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a good day. More to the point, British drivers seem to have forgotten how to merge efficiently these days so any narrowing of the road consistently causes massive delays wherever it is. It only takes 1 or 2 idiots to start merging half a mile before the restriction to **** everything else up. Usually they're the sort of idiot who thinks its "bad form" to drive all the way down and merge at the end even though thats the most efficient use of road space and then deliberately try and block anyone who does. Same as they have forgotten that the national speed limit is 60 (70 where there are multiple lanes and a central reservation) and not 50. 50? If only. I was stuck with about a dozen other cars behind some plank the other day doing 30 on the A41 out in the sticks. motorway junctions who pull out a lane without regard to what is coming behind them because they think it is the "safer" thing to do, and to avoid having to merge effectively with traffic entering the motorway).. Some drivers seem to think a rear view mirror is an optional extra. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:11:02 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:29:11 on Sun, 16 Dec 2018, tim... remarked: the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for). I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough. surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can set up an online account that does all this Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip. you haven't thought that through, have you If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get levied against when the car passes through. I have no idea what happens if you try this And I have no intention of finding out. I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too. so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go through that account anyway telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for institutional purposes isn't going go down too well What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account. so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then? surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll. Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary credit. Both of which can be an issue. Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures. BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to the post pay option The postal option is pre-pay too. but as I understand you, only for a specific journey. The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day. the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account. (and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg) The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders. so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the online account On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that 'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account. Banks don't check signatures anyway. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
In message , at 11:47:11 on
Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Optimist remarked: The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders. so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the online account On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that 'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account. Banks don't check signatures anyway. It's more for auditing purposes, to make sure no-one is siphoning off funds. For example it's usually prohibited for the two signatures to be related one another (even if both of them are officers of the organisation). -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On 17/12/2018 11:47, Optimist wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:11:02 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:29:11 on Sun, 16 Dec 2018, tim... remarked: the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for). I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough. surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can set up an online account that does all this Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip. you haven't thought that through, have you If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get levied against when the car passes through. I have no idea what happens if you try this And I have no intention of finding out. I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too. so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go through that account anyway telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for institutional purposes isn't going go down too well What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account. so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then? surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll. Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary credit. Both of which can be an issue. Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures. BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to the post pay option The postal option is pre-pay too. but as I understand you, only for a specific journey. The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day. the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account. (and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg) The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders. so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the online account On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that 'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account. Banks don't check signatures anyway. Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13 years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on a single order and in total during (usually) a month. And employee A's purchases were in an account sent to a second employee B. B was responsible for checking that the items looked reasonable - and sometimes for spot checks to verify with the end user - before authorising payment. Plus of course all the usual managerial oversight, budget controls, internal audit, etc. Similarly purchasing cycle systems have worked with 2 electronic "signatures" and without cheques since the last century. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Robin wrote: Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13 years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card machine around when they go to jobs. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
|
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
In message , at
15:37:46 on Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Robin remarked: On 17/12/2018 11:47, Optimist wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:11:02 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:29:11 on Sun, 16 Dec 2018, tim... remarked: the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for). I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough. surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can set up an online account that does all this Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip. you haven't thought that through, have you If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get levied against when the car passes through. I have no idea what happens if you try this And I have no intention of finding out. I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too. so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go through that account anyway telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for institutional purposes isn't going go down too well What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account. so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then? surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll. Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary credit. Both of which can be an issue. Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures. BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to the post pay option The postal option is pre-pay too. but as I understand you, only for a specific journey. The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day. the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account. (and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg) The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders. so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the online account On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that 'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account. Banks don't check signatures anyway. Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13 years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on a single order and in total during (usually) a month. And employee A's purchases were in an account sent to a second employee B. B was responsible for checking that the items looked reasonable - and sometimes for spot checks to verify with the end user - before authorising payment. Who was B authorising to make the payment? In any event there's a huge difference between raising POs from approved suppliers, and later doing the paperwork to ensure that Finance can send payment, and employees turning up saying "look what I just bought on my personal credit card, can I be reimbursed please". Plus of course all the usual managerial oversight, budget controls, internal audit, etc. Similarly purchasing cycle systems have worked with 2 electronic "signatures" and without cheques since the last century. You make it sound as if your objection is slow adoption of technology, but in fact it's about rules put in place by funders - should they be County Councils for schools, or the National Lottery for small charities. One of the latter I'm aware of had a NL grant and the T&C were specific that all purchases funded by the grant MUST be paid for with a two-signatures method, and just to rub it in MUST NOT ever be paid for on a debit/credit card[1]. In smaller organisations it's often easier to manage suchpayments by cheque, rather than pester two people to log on and double-authorise a BACS transfer (although the technology to do that certainly exists). In the case of paying a Dart Toll, doing that by midday of the day after travel is a huge logistical exercise. Meanwhile, one of the former was a school, which eventually had to break down and get a debit card to buy some online resources which simply weren't available any other way. But a procedure had to be put in place where the schools bursar had the card locked in a safe, and could only get it out and use it if supervised by another. That's not a case of mistrusting the people (although it's far from unknown for large sums to go missing from schools) but simply to follow established procedures, and also to make sure the card isn't misplaced and then used fraudulently. Private companies are much more gung-ho about such things, and I remember buying a laptop for five grand in today's money twenty years ago on my personal credit card, and being confident of reimbursement. On the other hand I've known big firms who mandated their employees got personal (not company) Amex cards for travel expenses, and then reimbursed them after the various hoops had been jmped through. The incentive there is that classic (and often apocryphal) dodgy 'expenses account' stuff would probably be caught and never re-imbursed; rather than if it was a company card having to be recovered from the employee. [1] I'm not sure I've ever seen a dual-PIN debit or credit card, which has to be a failing of the technology! -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
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Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote: On 17/12/2018 16:19, wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000 Robin wrote: Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13 years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card machine around when they go to jobs. Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do the job now. How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are contactless and not all phones have NFC. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:48:07 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:19:44 on Mon, 17 Dec 2018, remarked: Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13 years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card machine around when they go to jobs. Not just that, but huge numbers of traders simply don't take cards. Yup, cheques or cash. Often a discount for the latter, best not to ask why. My wife's hairdresser on the High Street only takes cash. My barbers only takes cash too. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On 18/12/2018 09:42, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 17/12/2018 16:19, wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000 Robin wrote: Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13 years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card machine around when they go to jobs. Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do the job now. How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are contactless and not all phones have NFC. Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless cards is diminishing rapidly. Having said that I've just wandered round the Christmas craft market and all the small traders have card machines tethered to their mobiles. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:13:46 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote: On 18/12/2018 09:42, wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 17/12/2018 16:19, wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000 Robin wrote: Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13 years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card machine around when they go to jobs. Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do the job now. How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are contactless and not all phones have NFC. Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless Really? ITYF most don't. cards is diminishing rapidly. Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway. |
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
In message , at 11:13:46 on Tue, 18 Dec
2018, Graeme Wall remarked: How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are contactless and not all phones have NFC. Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless cards is diminishing rapidly. The Moto G6, by no means an entry level phone, and the latest acquisition here, doesn't. On the other hand it does have a big battery *and* a [corded] fast-charge mode. Which I mention because my LG smartphone has NFC and cordless charging, but not at the same time. You have to swap phone backs. -- Roland Perry |
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