|
ELL in peril yet again
|
ELL in peril yet again
David Fairthorne wrote:
"marcb" wrote in message ... I see the East London Line has now got yet another vote of no confidence from central government. What angers me is that noone seems to be accountable for this abject failure to build a railway that has always had surefire economic benefit. M. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...ing%20Standard Where are the Olympic Games facilities (existing or proposed) located, and how would the ELL extension serve them? The Olympics is a red herring - the ELL extensions are for us Londoners and were assessed independently of an Olympic bid. M. |
ELL in peril yet again
On 16 May 2004 12:40:35 GMT, Mark Hynes wrote:
[ellx] Other than the extension north the route follows existing national rail lines. Living on the proposed southern route of the extension, I've never quite been able to work out why it's been trumpted as so important. It doesn't open up many (if any, really) new journey opportunities that seem likely to have any great demand. All of the southern stations are currently commuter stations to London Bridge and London Victoria, and unsurprisingly commuter journeys to those terminuses are the vast majority of journeys. I can't really see the demand changing from that and all of a sudden there being a rush of people travelling from, say, Forest Hill to Whitechapel. Which is a journey, like most others using the proposed extension, which can already be made easily with just one change anyway. but surely the ELLX does the following? a) extend Tube services to South London b) provides a new cross London service c) provides faster journeys to Docklands via Canada Water / Shadwell stations d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch High St station e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney f) provides a potential for economic development in deprived parts of London g) provides an orbital rail service across South and Inner East London h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London termini and their adjacent tube stations. I don't doubt that a reasonable proportion of people will remain with the National Rail services to current termini but at least many people will be offered an increased choice of travel options with a reasonably high level of service. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
ELL in peril yet again
but surely the ELLX does the following? a) extend Tube services to South London It won't be tube, it'll be National Rail with National Rail frequencies b) provides a new cross London service Yes... bu more of a round London service c) provides faster journeys to Docklands via Canada Water / Shadwell stations Yes d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch High St station Not many people working in the city woudl call Shoreditch the city. Anyway, I think Shoreditch Station will be closed. e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney See point a. Anyway, what is the use of a tube service if 90% of the people want to use it to go to the city or West end, and the tube goes somewhere else? f) provides a potential for economic development in deprived parts of London Yes g) provides an orbital rail service across South and Inner East London Yes h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network not a tube i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London termini and their adjacent tube stations. Yes I agree with the originator of this thread - I don't see what all the fuss is about. Yes, it would be nice to have, and it's a disgrace that it is being stopped (if it is) after starting work because we "can't afford" cost of 3.5 miiles of new track, but it's not a great addition to the London network, and hardly a major infrastructure build that is worth trumpeting from the rooftops.. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
ELL in peril yet again
Stephen Richards wrote:
I agree with the originator of this thread - I don't see what all the fuss is about. Yes, it would be nice to have, and it's a disgrace that it is being stopped (if it is) after starting work because we "can't afford" cost of 3.5 miiles of new track, but it's not a great addition to the London network, and hardly a major infrastructure build that is worth trumpeting from the rooftops.. A factor being overlooked when discussing the proposed service over the ELL is that having reconnected it to the national railway network is that through services from further afield will be able to make cross London journeys, "resident" service frequency permitting of course. |
ELL in peril yet again
Living on the proposed southern route of the extension, I've never quite been
able to work out why it's been trumpted as so important. It doesn't open up many (if any, really) new journey opportunities that seem likely to have any great demand. All of the southern stations are currently commuter stations to London Bridge and London Victoria, and unsurprisingly commuter journeys to those terminuses are the vast majority of journeys. I can't really see the demand changing from that and all of a sudden there being a rush of people travelling from, say, Forest Hill to Whitechapel. Which is a journey, like most others using the proposed extension, which can already be made easily with just one change anyway. but surely the ELLX does the following? a) extend Tube services to South London Not in a meaningful way. For any sensible journey, it would simply move a change at London Bridge to a change at Whitechapel. It would be better to scrap the Northern half of the project, abandon Shoreditch and extend the services terminating at Tower Hill and Whitechapel to the South Central (then there would be serious new journey opporunities - a one seat ride to the middle of things at Charing X Embankment and losing one connection from any journeys involving the ECML, MML, WCML, or GWML. b) provides a new cross London service No, it provides a service to stations in North London that aren't even on any main line. One of the major reasons for Thameslink being so successful is that passengers on the Midland Main Line have a single change to get to the South Coast. c) provides faster journeys to Docklands via Canada Water / Shadwell stations Depends where you're starting from. From Clapham Junction, it'd be quicker via Waterloo; from Croydon, it'd be quicker on a fast train to London Bridge; from New Cross you might as well walk to Deptford Bridge. In fact a far easier and more useful extension for South London to Docklands travel would be a DLR branch over the New Cross Rd with stations at New Cross, New Cross Gate, and Queen's Rd Peckham. d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch High St station It'd be almost as much a walk as from Whitechapel. e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney Here's the real motive... pity it doesn't go anywhere like Chelney was meant to. f) provides a potential for economic development in deprived parts of London Explain. g) provides an orbital rail service across South and Inner East London Not quite. Tangential more like. h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network And like the existing tube link, it has little practical use. Just as from Wimbledon, you'd ride into Waterloo unless you wanted specifically to go to Pad, I'm pretty sure anyone from Croydon would get on a Fast train to Victoria or a Thameslink rather than sit on a slow Underground train to Hackney (unless they wanted to go to Hackney. i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London termini and their adjacent tube stations. This would be particularly useful at London Bridge, but ELLX in its current form looks like a bit of a damp squib. |
ELL in peril yet again
I've never understood why all the southern extensions will run from
New X Gate rather than being shared between New X Gate and New X. As a result passengers from outer South-East London will hardly benefit at all from the ELL extension. |
ELL in peril yet again
Gary Jenkins wrote:
I've never understood why all the southern extensions will run from New X Gate rather than being shared between New X Gate and New X. As a result passengers from outer South-East London will hardly benefit at all from the ELL extension. In a nutshell - capacity issues at Lewisham, which would be extremely expensive to resolve. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
ELL in peril yet again
Stephen Richards wrote:
but surely the ELLX does the following? a) extend Tube services to South London It won't be tube, it'll be National Rail with National Rail frequencies Correct on the first point - but 4tph on the other branches is a similar frequency to some outer London LUL services. And there will be 16tph through the core section. b) provides a new cross London service Yes... bu more of a round London service ....but it does get you across London. (snip) d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch High St station Not many people working in the city woudl call Shoreditch the city. Anyway, I think Shoreditch Station will be closed. Shoreditch High St, where the new station will be located, is certainly quite close to the City (about 10 minutes' walk from Livepool St?) and I believe some new developments are spreading out of the City in this direction. The existing Shoreditch station will close, to be replaced by the new Shoreditch High St station further west. e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney See point a. Anyway, what is the use of a tube service if 90% of the people want to use it to go to the city or West end, and the tube goes somewhere else? Hackney has a rail link directly into the City. OK, it doesn't have a direct service to the West End - but such a route will be extremely expensive and is already being planned (Crossrail 2). This will certainly be a good link to *Docklands*. h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network not a tube Again true - many people don't seem to realise this! i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London termini and their adjacent tube stations. Yes Recent modelling predicted that 5,000 passengers will be removed from each of Waterloo and London Bridge stations - presumably passengers travelling to Docklands, who will use the less-used Canada Water station or Shadwell instead. I agree with the originator of this thread - I don't see what all the fuss is about. Yes, it would be nice to have, and it's a disgrace that it is being stopped (if it is) after starting work because we "can't afford" cost of 3.5 miiles of new track, but it's not a great addition to the London network, and hardly a major infrastructure build that is worth trumpeting from the rooftops.. There are two major points which haven't been mentioned. Price - the ELL avoids Zone 1. At current season ticket prices, someone travelling between two Zone 2 stations - for example Clapham Junction and Canary Wharf - could save themselves *£416* per year by taking the ELL. Passengers from West Croydon to Canary Wharf would save £548. If that's not a major point, I don't know what is. Part of the ELL's economic regeneration aspect is that it makes travelling cheaper for passengers from some depressed inner-city areas like Hackney. Orbirail - Construction of these links is the most important step to Orbirail, orbital services via Willesden Junction, Clapham Junction, Highbury, the NLL and ELLX. Journeys between opposite sides of London might still be faster via the centre (although some people will appreciate the not having to change) - but this orbital route connects some major centres, and once again, the price factor comes into play. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 01:36 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk