Travelcards and bus passes
I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass"
as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my bus pass. With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The driver seems to push a button when I show either pass. All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do they get paid? While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)? |
Travelcards and bus passes
Graham Harrison wrote:
I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass" as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my bus pass. With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The driver seems to push a button when I show either pass. All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do they get paid? While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)? As I understand it, the bus company gets reimbursed (using a complicated formula) by the local 'travel concession authorities’ (TCAs). In England these are county, unitary and metropolitan authorities and the 33 London councils, which collectively get a government formula grant talking about £1bn. However, some TCAs make a loss and some a profit on this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ow/7844371.stm In any case, your local TCA doesn't get billed for your use elsewhere in England, and the bus company just needs to count the total number of concessionary fares, not who issued the bus passes. |
Travelcards and bus passes
In message , at 10:52:37 on Sat, 2 Mar 2019,
Recliner remarked: I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass" as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my bus pass. With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The driver seems to push a button when I show either pass. All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do they get paid? While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)? As I understand it, the bus company gets reimbursed (using a complicated formula) by the local 'travel concession authorities’ (TCAs). In England these are county, unitary and metropolitan authorities and the 33 London councils, which collectively get a government formula grant talking about £1bn. However, some TCAs make a loss and some a profit on this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ow/7844371.stm There's very little data there, other than the obvious "winners and losers" hand-wringing. In any case, your local TCA doesn't get billed for your use elsewhere in England, and the bus company just needs to count the total number of concessionary fares, not who issued the bus passes. If you read the official reports[1] on the scheme, they are always couched in terms of "boardings", not least because that's the only data that's collected (people don't have to "touch-out"). Which is consistent with my recollection that the money which is sent to the bus company comes from the local authority in whose territory the [single, not return] trip begins. The idea was that people in Derby would be just as likely to go shopping in Nottingham as people from Nottingham were in Derby, so the formers' trip home being paid for by Nottingham would be balanced out by the latters' trip home being paid for by Derby. The unfairness complained about largely derives from "tourist destinations" where they are lumbered with paying the fares back home for a wide range of out-of-area day-trippers, whereas their own residents have no reason to do a day-trip to the non-touristy areas from which those others travel. ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered. As perhaps a realist might expect, the pass has mainly been used by car-less people to avoid paying fares on the buses they were already using, and take-up is massively skewed towards people who happen to already live close to good bus services. [1] such as: https://assets.publishing.service.go...s/system/uploa ds/attachment_data/file/669076/evaluation-of-concessionary-bus-travel.pdf -- Roland Perry |
Travelcards and bus passes
On 02/03/2019 13:14, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:37 on Sat, 2 Mar 2019, Recliner remarked: I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass" as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my bus pass. With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The driver seems to push a button when I show either pass. All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do they get paid? While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)? As I understand it, the bus company gets reimbursed (using a complicated formula) by the local 'travel concession authorities’ (TCAs). In England these are county, unitary and metropolitan authorities and the 33 London councils, which collectively get a government formula grant talking about £1bn. However, some TCAs make a loss and some a profit on this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ow/7844371.stm There's very little data there, other than the obvious "winners and losers" hand-wringing. In any case, your local TCA doesn't get billed for your use elsewhere in England, and the bus company just needs to count the total number of concessionary fares, not who issued the bus passes. If you read the official reports[1] on the scheme, they are always couched in terms of "boardings", not least because that's the only data that's collected (people don't have to "touch-out"). Which is consistent with my recollection that the money which is sent to the bus company comes from the local authority in whose territory the [single, not return] trip begins. The idea was that people in Derby would be just as likely to go shopping in Nottingham as people from Nottingham were in Derby, so the formers' trip home being paid for by Nottingham would be balanced out by the latters' trip home being paid for by Derby. The unfairness complained about largely derives from "tourist destinations" where they are lumbered with paying the fares back home for a wide range of out-of-area day-trippers, whereas their own residents have no reason to do a day-trip to the non-touristy areas from which those others travel. ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered. As perhaps a realist might expect, the pass has mainly been used by car-less people to avoid paying fares on the buses they were already using, and take-up is massively skewed towards people who happen to already live close to good bus services. Bit difficult to take it up if you haven't got a bus service. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Travelcards and bus passes
On 02/03/2019 07:06, Graham Harrison wrote:
I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass" as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my bus pass. With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The driver seems to push a button when I show either pass. All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do they get paid? While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)? Hang on - surely public transport in London is only ever used by people who live in London, which is why it makes 100% perfect sense to do all those "OUTRAGE as London gets GBP X per head spent on transport" reports that make the provincials spill their Wetherspoons mild over their ferrets. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Travelcards and bus passes
On 02/03/2019 17:48, Arthur Figgis wrote:
.. Hang on - surely public transport in London is only ever used by people who live in London, .. Which planet did you just beam in from? London has vast numbers of visitors for both business and tourism. Most of them whether from the UK or overseas use public transport within London because it is the only sensible way to get around. I know a fair number of UK older folk from outside London and they always use their bus passes when in town. Their main complaint is that they can only uses the buses for free whereas my Freedom pass is OK for tube and suburban rail as well. |
Travelcards and bus passes
On 02/03/2019 13:14, Roland Perry wrote:
ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered. As perhaps a realist might expect, the pass has mainly been used by car-less people to avoid paying fares on the buses they were already using, and take-up is massively skewed towards people who happen to already live close to good bus services. [1] such as: https://assets.publishing.service.go...s/system/uploa ds/attachment_data/file/669076/evaluation-of-concessionary-bus-travel.pdf As already said, its difficult to use a bus pass if you don't "happen to already live close to good bus services". When it comes to "creating a modal-shift for retirees from car to bus" the same applies. If you want people to switch from cars it is pointless to give them free travel unless you first create the bus (or other) services to make it feasible. This was the line Ken Livingston took in London long ago. That is certainly my experience. I still drive my own car and before the bus pass arrived rarely thought about using the excellent London bus services. That has totally reversed for local journeys because having tried the bus I quickly found that it is mostly easier and faster, especially taking into account the usual cost and difficulty of parking anywhere remotely close to your destination. Sadly my experience outside Greater London is the opposite. Cashed strapped county councils have spent years cutting bus subsidies so that many living outside the main towns will soon have no alternative to their own car or an expensive mini cab. |
Travelcards and bus passes
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 02/03/2019 13:14, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:52:37 on Sat, 2 Mar 2019, Recliner remarked: I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass" as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my bus pass. With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The driver seems to push a button when I show either pass. All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do they get paid? While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)? As I understand it, the bus company gets reimbursed (using a complicated formula) by the local 'travel concession authorities’ (TCAs). In England these are county, unitary and metropolitan authorities and the 33 London councils, which collectively get a government formula grant talking about £1bn. However, some TCAs make a loss and some a profit on this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ow/7844371.stm There's very little data there, other than the obvious "winners and losers" hand-wringing. In any case, your local TCA doesn't get billed for your use elsewhere in England, and the bus company just needs to count the total number of concessionary fares, not who issued the bus passes. If you read the official reports[1] on the scheme, they are always couched in terms of "boardings", not least because that's the only data that's collected (people don't have to "touch-out"). Which is consistent with my recollection that the money which is sent to the bus company comes from the local authority in whose territory the [single, not return] trip begins. The idea was that people in Derby would be just as likely to go shopping in Nottingham as people from Nottingham were in Derby, so the formers' trip home being paid for by Nottingham would be balanced out by the latters' trip home being paid for by Derby. The unfairness complained about largely derives from "tourist destinations" where they are lumbered with paying the fares back home for a wide range of out-of-area day-trippers, whereas their own residents have no reason to do a day-trip to the non-touristy areas from which those others travel. ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered. As perhaps a realist might expect, the pass has mainly been used by car-less people to avoid paying fares on the buses they were already using, and take-up is massively skewed towards people who happen to already live close to good bus services. Bit difficult to take it up if you haven't got a bus service. The one we once had started in Dorset ,briefly ran through Hampshire and then into Wiltshire terminating in Salisbury. It was Dorset removing their subsidy that killed it, first from twice a week down to one and then completely. I can see their point of view in not wanting to subsidise a service that took people out of the County to spend their money in a city in Wiltshire and benefiting a few residents of Hampshire on the way though I believe Hampshire did make a small contribution. I was about the only person on it who paid. After a gap a small operator now runs a the Hampshire bit -Salisbury on Tuesdays which isn’t part of the national bus pass scheme. The number of users seems to be about the same so occasionally it looks like the those who hold a bus pass could afford to make a contribution, it would just cut down on many who use their ENP for no more than a leisurely day out rather than essential travel. GH |
Travelcards and bus passes
In message , at 18:35:28 on Sat, 2 Mar
2019, MikeS remarked: ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered. .... As already said, its difficult to use a bus pass if you don't "happen to already live close to good bus services". When it comes to "creating a modal-shift for retirees from car to bus" the same applies. If you want people to switch from cars it is pointless to give them free travel unless you first create the bus (or other) services to make it feasible. I wasn't very well thought through. Although it would have been a PR disaster to only issue the passes to people in big cities. But a bus an hour is enough to go out for the day - after all that's the service on a great deal of the railways (outside of very big cities). -- Roland Perry |
Travelcards and bus passes
On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 18:07:52 +0000, MikeS wrote:
On 02/03/2019 17:48, Arthur Figgis wrote: . Hang on - surely public transport in London is only ever used by people who live in London, . Which planet did you just beam in from? Planet Sarcasm London has vast numbers of visitors for both business and tourism. Most of them whether from the UK or overseas use public transport within London because it is the only sensible way to get around. I know a fair number of UK older folk from outside London and they always use their bus passes when in town. Their main complaint is that they can only uses the buses for free whereas my Freedom pass is OK for tube and suburban rail as well. |
Travelcards and bus passes
On 02/03/2019 20:47, Roland Perry wrote:
But a bus an hour is enough to go out for the day - after all that's the service on a great deal of the railways (outside of very big cities). The problem in many villages is that the only buses you see are either school contract vehicles, which do a run in to town in the morning and come back out at about 4 pm, or a weekly service, which is usually on market day, and lets you stay in town for three hours or so to do your shopping. Government cutbacks are now putting the weekly services under threat, as the subsidies they rely on as "socially necessary services" are optional and are being withdrawn all over England because councils can't afford them. Other services that are going are ones in the suburbs outside core hours, so the last bus which used to be at 23:00 or even later, now runs at 20:00, or 21:00 on a Saturday. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
Travelcards and bus passes
On 02/03/2019 17:48, Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 02/03/2019 07:06, Graham Harrison wrote: I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass" as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my bus pass. With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The driver seems to push a button when I show either pass. All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do they get paid? While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)? Hang on - surely public transport in London is only ever used by people who live in London, which is why it makes 100% perfect sense to do all those "OUTRAGE as London gets GBP X per head spent on transport" reports that make the provincials spill their Wetherspoons mild over their ferrets. Wetherspoons do a mild now? -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Travelcards and bus passes
In message , at 21:39:24 on Sat, 2 Mar
2019, John Williamson remarked: On 02/03/2019 20:47, Roland Perry wrote: But a bus an hour is enough to go out for the day - after all that's the service on a great deal of the railways (outside of very big cities). The problem in many villages is that the only buses you see are either school contract vehicles, which do a run in to town in the morning and come back out at about 4 pm, or a weekly service, which is usually on market day, and lets you stay in town for three hours or so to do your shopping. I agree that's a problem for all potential bus users, but the size of the market for such villages is so small (even if the fares were zero for everyone) that the best solution is a community "dial a ride". .... Other services that are going are ones in the suburbs outside core hours, so the last bus which used to be at 23:00 or even later, now runs at 20:00, or 21:00 on a Saturday. Ditto. If they are running almost empty, which they tend to, they are easy prey. -- Roland Perry |
Travelcards and bus passes
On 04/03/2019 16:15, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:39:24 on Sat, 2 Mar 2019, John Williamson remarked: The problem in many villages is that the only buses you see are either school contract vehicles, which do a run in to town in the morning and come back out at about 4 pm, or a weekly service, which is usually on market day, and lets you stay in town for three hours or so to do your shopping. I agree that's a problem for all potential bus users, but the size of the market for such villages is so small (even if the fares were zero for everyone) that the best solution is a community "dial a ride". .. Which the council can't or refuse to afford to run either. :-/ Public transport is an "optional service", which means that when money is tight, as it has been for a while now, and getting tighter by the year, councils cut it first, before things like meals on wheels, community policing and councillors allowances. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
Travelcards and bus passes
On 04/03/2019 16:15, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:39:24 on Sat, 2 Mar 2019, John Williamson remarked: On 02/03/2019 20:47, Roland Perry wrote: But a bus an hour is enough to go out for the day - after all that's theÂ* service on a great deal of the railways (outside of very big cities). The problem in many villages is that the only buses you see are either school contract vehicles, which do a run in to town in the morning and come back out at about 4 pm, or a weekly service, which is usually on market day, and lets you stay in town for three hours or so to do your shopping. I agree that's a problem for all potential bus users, but the size of the market for such villages is so small (even if the fares were zero for everyone) that the best solution is a community "dial a ride". ... Other services that are going are ones in the suburbs outside core hours, so the last bus which used to be at 23:00 or even later, now runs at 20:00, or 21:00 on a Saturday. Ditto. If they are running almost empty, which they tend to, they are easy prey. What I've never quite understood is why no-one has started to join up two things that are suffering for various reasons - public transport and pubs. Particularly as use of the latter often requires the use of the former. Community dial-a-ride vehicles are often unused (or underused) in the evenings, so why don't rural pubs subsidise them (or as a minimum help organise a service) to use for carrying punters of an evening? Often a small town can be surrounded by several villages and residents of the villages may want a night out in town and vice versa (assuming the nice village boozer hasn't shut down). Even without pub subsidies, these are servicees that would attract a fare that may make the "community" uses of such vehicles viable outside of when they are doing the pub run. |
Travelcards and bus passes
Someone Somewhere wrote:
What I've never quite understood is why no-one has started to join up two things that are suffering for various reasons - public transport and pubs. Particularly as use of the latter often requires the use of the former. Community dial-a-ride vehicles are often unused (or underused) in the evenings, so why don't rural pubs subsidise them (or as a minimum help organise a service) to use for carrying punters of an evening? Often a small town can be surrounded by several villages and residents of the villages may want a night out in town and vice versa (assuming the nice village boozer hasn't shut down). Even without pub subsidies, these are servicees that would attract a fare that may make the "community" uses of such vehicles viable outside of when they are doing the pub run. Very difficulty to cater for everyone ,some would like to drink to the bitter end ((sorry) others would wish to leave earlier . Getting someone willing to drive and clean the vehicle which would mean working till the early hours will not be easy either, with the best intentions in the world someone will make a fool of them seriously and be sick which means an unattractive vehicle for the users next day . And to be honest I don’t think there would be that much of a demand and in addition pubs that would subsidise such a service would be rare. Those that need such a service bringing half dozen or so customers won’t be viable enough in the first place to support one. There is the odd pub that has tried running their own minibus to take customers home but the one that tried it In a village near Southampton had to give up as the local authorities felt they were providing an unlicensed taxi service. And that was a pub that is buzzing anyway and not depending on some old farts from Camra turning up. They have hit a new niche now and specialise in catering for dog owners with organised walks and dog friendly facilities. http://www.compassinn.co.uk That is how a pub survives now , finding a niche and getting known for it,in this case so successfully that people with children have moaned that they are less welcome than people with dogs. All power to the pubs elbow then. GH |
Travelcards and bus passes
In message , at 16:50:33 on Mon, 4 Mar
2019, John Williamson remarked: On 04/03/2019 16:15, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 21:39:24 on Sat, 2 Mar 2019, John Williamson remarked: The problem in many villages is that the only buses you see are either school contract vehicles, which do a run in to town in the morning and come back out at about 4 pm, or a weekly service, which is usually on market day, and lets you stay in town for three hours or so to do your shopping. I agree that's a problem for all potential bus users, but the size of the market for such villages is so small (even if the fares were zero for everyone) that the best solution is a community "dial a ride". .. Which the council can't or refuse to afford to run either. :-/ They are still going in Cambridgeshire, and someone mentioned a similar service in Essex the other week. See the thread "TfL demand-responsive bus trial". -- Roland Perry |
Travelcards and bus passes
On 04/03/2019 18:32, Marland wrote:
There is the odd pub that has tried running their own minibus to take customers home but the one that tried it In a village near Southampton had to give up as the local authorities felt they were providing an unlicensed taxi service. And that was a pub that is buzzing anyway and not depending on some old farts from Camra turning up. As a life member of CAMRA I take exception to that remark..! I am neither old (well not all that old) nor do I fart (much). That seems rather a shortsighted attitude to take. I assume they'd rather have people attempting to drive home whilst plastered, then..? A pub near where my mother lives does this and they've never had a problem. -- Ria in Aberdeen [Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct] |
Free rides for the inebriated
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 15:41:01 +0000, MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 04/03/2019 18:32, Marland wrote: There is the odd pub that has tried running their own minibus to take customers home but the one that tried it In a village near Southampton had to give up as the local authorities felt they were providing an unlicensed taxi service. And that was a pub that is buzzing anyway and not depending on some old farts from Camra turning up. As a life member of CAMRA I take exception to that remark..! I am neither old (well not all that old) nor do I fart (much). That seems rather a shortsighted attitude to take. I assume they'd rather have people attempting to drive home whilst plastered, then..? If you give the plastered a ride home,you are depriving the Filth of customers, you they don't like being deprived of easy kills. -- In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell |
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