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Old March 2nd 19, 06:06 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Travelcards and bus passes

I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass"
as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined
paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my
bus pass.

With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus
I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers
outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The
driver seems to push a button when I show either pass.

All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button
but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult
to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on
the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm
using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do
they get paid?

While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in
and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do
Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)?

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Old March 2nd 19, 09:52 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Travelcards and bus passes

Graham Harrison wrote:
I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass"
as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined
paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my
bus pass.

With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus
I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers
outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The
driver seems to push a button when I show either pass.

All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button
but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult
to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on
the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm
using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do
they get paid?

While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in
and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do
Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)?


As I understand it, the bus company gets reimbursed (using a complicated
formula) by the local 'travel concession authorities’ (TCAs). In England
these are county, unitary and metropolitan authorities and the 33 London
councils, which collectively get a government formula grant talking about
£1bn. However, some TCAs make a loss and some a profit on this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ow/7844371.stm

In any case, your local TCA doesn't get billed for your use elsewhere in
England, and the bus company just needs to count the total number of
concessionary fares, not who issued the bus passes.

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Old March 2nd 19, 12:14 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Travelcards and bus passes

In message , at 10:52:37 on Sat, 2 Mar 2019,
Recliner remarked:
I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass"
as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined
paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my
bus pass.

With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus
I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers
outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The
driver seems to push a button when I show either pass.

All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button
but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult
to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on
the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm
using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do
they get paid?

While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in
and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do
Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)?


As I understand it, the bus company gets reimbursed (using a complicated
formula) by the local 'travel concession authorities’ (TCAs). In England
these are county, unitary and metropolitan authorities and the 33 London
councils, which collectively get a government formula grant talking about
£1bn. However, some TCAs make a loss and some a profit on this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ow/7844371.stm


There's very little data there, other than the obvious "winners and
losers" hand-wringing.

In any case, your local TCA doesn't get billed for your use elsewhere in
England, and the bus company just needs to count the total number of
concessionary fares, not who issued the bus passes.


If you read the official reports[1] on the scheme, they are always
couched in terms of "boardings", not least because that's the only data
that's collected (people don't have to "touch-out").

Which is consistent with my recollection that the money which is sent to
the bus company comes from the local authority in whose territory the
[single, not return] trip begins.

The idea was that people in Derby would be just as likely to go shopping
in Nottingham as people from Nottingham were in Derby, so the formers'
trip home being paid for by Nottingham would be balanced out by the
latters' trip home being paid for by Derby.

The unfairness complained about largely derives from "tourist
destinations" where they are lumbered with paying the fares back home
for a wide range of out-of-area day-trippers, whereas their own
residents have no reason to do a day-trip to the non-touristy areas from
which those others travel.

ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a
modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered. As
perhaps a realist might expect, the pass has mainly been used by
car-less people to avoid paying fares on the buses they were already
using, and take-up is massively skewed towards people who happen to
already live close to good bus services.

[1] such as:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...s/system/uploa
ds/attachment_data/file/669076/evaluation-of-concessionary-bus-travel.pdf

--
Roland Perry
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Old March 2nd 19, 02:58 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Travelcards and bus passes

On 02/03/2019 13:14, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:37 on Sat, 2 Mar 2019,
Recliner remarked:
I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass"
as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined
paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my
bus pass.

With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus
I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers
outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The
driver seems to push a button when I show either pass.

All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button
but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult
to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on
the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm
using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do
they get paid?

While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in
and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do
Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)?


As I understand it, the bus company gets reimbursed (using a complicated
formula) by the local 'travel concession authorities’ (TCAs). In England
these are county, unitary and metropolitan authorities and the 33 London
councils, which collectively get a government formula grant talking about
£1bn. However, some TCAs make a loss and some a profit on this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ow/7844371.stm


There's very little data there, other than the obvious "winners and
losers" hand-wringing.

In any case, your local TCA doesn't get billed for your use elsewhere in
England, and the bus company just needs to count the total number of
concessionary fares, not who issued the bus passes.


If you read the official reports[1] on the scheme, they are always
couched in terms of "boardings", not least because that's the only data
that's collected (people don't have to "touch-out").

Which is consistent with my recollection that the money which is sent to
the bus company comes from the local authority in whose territory the
[single, not return] trip begins.

The idea was that people in Derby would be just as likely to go shopping
in Nottingham as people from Nottingham were in Derby, so the formers'
trip home being paid for by Nottingham would be balanced out by the
latters' trip home being paid for by Derby.

The unfairness complained about largely derives from "tourist
destinations" where they are lumbered with paying the fares back home
for a wide range of out-of-area day-trippers, whereas their own
residents have no reason to do a day-trip to the non-touristy areas from
which those others travel.

ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a
modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered. As
perhaps a realist might expect, the pass has mainly been used by
car-less people to avoid paying fares on the buses they were already
using, and take-up is massively skewed towards people who happen to
already live close to good bus services.


Bit difficult to take it up if you haven't got a bus service.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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Old March 2nd 19, 04:48 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Travelcards and bus passes

On 02/03/2019 07:06, Graham Harrison wrote:
I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass"
as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined
paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my
bus pass.

With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus
I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers
outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The
driver seems to push a button when I show either pass.

All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button
but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult
to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on
the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm
using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do
they get paid?

While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in
and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do
Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)?


Hang on - surely public transport in London is only ever used by people
who live in London, which is why it makes 100% perfect sense to do all
those "OUTRAGE as London gets GBP X per head spent on transport" reports
that make the provincials spill their Wetherspoons mild over their ferrets.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK


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Old March 2nd 19, 05:07 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Travelcards and bus passes

On 02/03/2019 17:48, Arthur Figgis wrote:
..

Hang on - surely public transport in London is only ever used by people
who live in London,

..

Which planet did you just beam in from?

London has vast numbers of visitors for both business and tourism. Most
of them whether from the UK or overseas use public transport within
London because it is the only sensible way to get around.

I know a fair number of UK older folk from outside London and they
always use their bus passes when in town. Their main complaint is that
they can only uses the buses for free whereas my Freedom pass is OK for
tube and suburban rail as well.

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Old March 2nd 19, 05:35 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Travelcards and bus passes

On 02/03/2019 13:14, Roland Perry wrote:


ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a
modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered. As
perhaps a realist might expect, the pass has mainly been used by
car-less people to avoid paying fares on the buses they were already
using, and take-up is massively skewed towards people who happen to
already live close to good bus services.

[1] such as:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...s/system/uploa
ds/attachment_data/file/669076/evaluation-of-concessionary-bus-travel.pdf


As already said, its difficult to use a bus pass if you don't "happen to
already live close to good bus services". When it comes to "creating a
modal-shift for retirees from car to bus" the same applies. If you want
people to switch from cars it is pointless to give them free travel
unless you first create the bus (or other) services to make it feasible.
This was the line Ken Livingston took in London long ago.

That is certainly my experience. I still drive my own car and before the
bus pass arrived rarely thought about using the excellent London bus
services. That has totally reversed for local journeys because having
tried the bus I quickly found that it is mostly easier and faster,
especially taking into account the usual cost and difficulty of parking
anywhere remotely close to your destination.

Sadly my experience outside Greater London is the opposite. Cashed
strapped county councils have spent years cutting bus subsidies so that
many living outside the main towns will soon have no alternative to
their own car or an expensive mini cab.

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Old March 2nd 19, 05:46 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Travelcards and bus passes

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 02/03/2019 13:14, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:37 on Sat, 2 Mar 2019,
Recliner remarked:
I live in Somerset and hold a concessionary bus pass (a "twirly pass"
as some have it). When I visit London I sometimes buy a combined
paper/orange train ticket/Travelcard. On other occasions I will use my
bus pass.

With the Travelcard it can go through the gates but when I board a bus
I just show the driver the orange ticket. My bus pass works on readers
outside London but in London I'm back to simply showing my pass. The
driver seems to push a button when I show either pass.

All that set me wondering. He might have a "paper travelcard" button
but I find the idea that he has a "Somerset bus pass" button difficult
to believe if only because I doubt he has time to read "Somerset" on
the pass. How do TfL get paid for my use of TfL services when I'm
using either a paper travelcard or my bus pass? For that matter do
they get paid?

While I'm asking, one of my most frequent uses of my bus pass is in
and around Salisbury which, of course, is in Wiltshire. How do
Wiltshire get paid (do they get paid)?

As I understand it, the bus company gets reimbursed (using a complicated
formula) by the local 'travel concession authorities’ (TCAs). In England
these are county, unitary and metropolitan authorities and the 33 London
councils, which collectively get a government formula grant talking about
£1bn. However, some TCAs make a loss and some a profit on this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ow/7844371.stm


There's very little data there, other than the obvious "winners and
losers" hand-wringing.

In any case, your local TCA doesn't get billed for your use elsewhere in
England, and the bus company just needs to count the total number of
concessionary fares, not who issued the bus passes.


If you read the official reports[1] on the scheme, they are always
couched in terms of "boardings", not least because that's the only data
that's collected (people don't have to "touch-out").

Which is consistent with my recollection that the money which is sent to
the bus company comes from the local authority in whose territory the
[single, not return] trip begins.

The idea was that people in Derby would be just as likely to go shopping
in Nottingham as people from Nottingham were in Derby, so the formers'
trip home being paid for by Nottingham would be balanced out by the
latters' trip home being paid for by Derby.

The unfairness complained about largely derives from "tourist
destinations" where they are lumbered with paying the fares back home
for a wide range of out-of-area day-trippers, whereas their own
residents have no reason to do a day-trip to the non-touristy areas from
which those others travel.

ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a
modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered. As
perhaps a realist might expect, the pass has mainly been used by
car-less people to avoid paying fares on the buses they were already
using, and take-up is massively skewed towards people who happen to
already live close to good bus services.


Bit difficult to take it up if you haven't got a bus service.



The one we once had started in Dorset ,briefly ran through Hampshire and
then into Wiltshire terminating in Salisbury. It was Dorset removing their
subsidy that killed it, first from twice a week down to one and then
completely. I can see their point of view in not wanting to subsidise a
service that took people out of the County to spend their money in a city
in Wiltshire and benefiting a few residents of Hampshire on the way though
I believe Hampshire did make a small contribution.
I was about the only person on it who paid.
After a gap a small operator now runs a the Hampshire bit -Salisbury on
Tuesdays which isn’t part of the national bus pass scheme. The number of
users seems to be about the same so occasionally it looks like the those
who hold a bus pass could afford to make a contribution, it would just cut
down on many who use their ENP for no more than a leisurely day out rather
than essential travel.

GH

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Old March 2nd 19, 07:47 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 18:35:28 on Sat, 2 Mar
2019, MikeS remarked:

ps One of the main objectives of the scheme, which was to create a
modal-shift for retirees from car to bus has failed to be delivered.

....

As already said, its difficult to use a bus pass if you don't "happen
to already live close to good bus services". When it comes to "creating
a modal-shift for retirees from car to bus" the same applies. If you
want people to switch from cars it is pointless to give them free
travel unless you first create the bus (or other) services to make it
feasible.


I wasn't very well thought through. Although it would have been a PR
disaster to only issue the passes to people in big cities.

But a bus an hour is enough to go out for the day - after all that's the
service on a great deal of the railways (outside of very big cities).
--
Roland Perry
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Old March 2nd 19, 08:13 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Travelcards and bus passes

On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 18:07:52 +0000, MikeS wrote:

On 02/03/2019 17:48, Arthur Figgis wrote:
.

Hang on - surely public transport in London is only ever used by people
who live in London,

.

Which planet did you just beam in from?


Planet Sarcasm


London has vast numbers of visitors for both business and tourism. Most
of them whether from the UK or overseas use public transport within
London because it is the only sensible way to get around.

I know a fair number of UK older folk from outside London and they
always use their bus passes when in town. Their main complaint is that
they can only uses the buses for free whereas my Freedom pass is OK for
tube and suburban rail as well.



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