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Uber and the VAT man
On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote:
JNugent remarked: Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively. If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver, that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your proposition. But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger (account-holder) on the spot? Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end of the month perhaps)? I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said. Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare. I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver. The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion of Uber. I don't think credit card companies include the total value of thingsÂ* purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do collect theÂ* money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the balance to vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount outÂ* andÂ* then send an invoice asking for the commission back whenever theÂ* traderÂ* feels like it. I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers. Â*That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and channelÂ* it through to the merchants. They don't pay money to me. Â*I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's moneyÂ* from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's turnover. Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered / recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their turnover. They lend money to the buyer (at zero interest rate if they pay it off on demand). They don't lend money to the merchant. Does that apply to Uber? And TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is just the commission/fee element. But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the money they turn over is not part of their turnover. Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare. But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber. |
Uber and the VAT man
JNugent wrote:
On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote: JNugent remarked: Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively. If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver, that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your proposition. But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger (account-holder) on the spot? Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end of the month perhaps)? I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said. Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare. I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver. The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion of Uber. I don't think credit card companies include the total value of thingsÂ* purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do collect theÂ* money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the balance to vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount outÂ* andÂ* then send an invoice asking for the commission back whenever theÂ* traderÂ* feels like it. I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers. Â*That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and channelÂ* it through to the merchants. They don't pay money to me. Â*I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's moneyÂ* from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's turnover. Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered / recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their turnover. They lend money to the buyer (at zero interest rate if they pay it off on demand). They don't lend money to the merchant. Does that apply to Uber? And TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is just the commission/fee element. But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the money they turn over is not part of their turnover. Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare. But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber. |
Uber and the VAT man
On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote:
Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare. I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal? Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal. https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101 I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in mine. |
Uber and the VAT man
On 2019-05-30, Tim Woodall wrote:
On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote: Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare. I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal? Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal. https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101 I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in mine. https://thevatconsultancy.com/med-ho...supreme-court/ Went all the way to the supreme court - and was reversed at each stage! |
Uber and the VAT man
Tim Woodall wrote:
On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote: Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare. I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal? Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal. https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101 I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in mine. Which would confirm Uber's interpretation, meaning that it doesn't need to pay VAT, or if it does, only on its net amount, around 22% of the gross billings. Uber certainly books and reports 'Gross billings' and 'Revenue', where the latter is its net take after paying the drivers. |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 16:43:29 on Thu, 30
May 2019, JNugent remarked: On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote: JNugent remarked: *The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the commission* element, not including the money that passes straight through to the* drivers and Train Companies respectively. If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver, that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your proposition. But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger (account-holder) on the spot? Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end of the month perhaps)? I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said. I was asking for confirmation that they "turn over the whole fare collected from the passenger, on the spot". There's two aspects: The whole fare, and On the spot. Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare. No-one ever claimed otherwise. It's what they do after collecting it which matters. I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. Therefore you are now agreeing with my proposition that they pay the driver only part of what they collected from the passenger. Having deducted their commission. Whether they pay it "on the spot", or perhaps 'at the end of the week' or whatever, is peripheral to that particular aspect. That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver. The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion of Uber. There are two models possible: Passenger pays for the ride and the whole fare is collected by Uber and sent to the driver (with Uber being in effect just a form of merchant services dealing with the card payment). Later, Uber sends a bill to the driver for his usage of their booking/billing platform. Or, Passenger pays Uber for the ride, and they send him (maybe immediately, maybe later) a piecework payment for having done the driving aspect. The perceptual difference being whether the passenger has just patronised a self-employed driver, or a multi-billion cab company. TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is just the commission/fee element. But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the money they turn over is not part of their turnover. The two business models are very similar. Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare. But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber. Yes, I think we all understand why the £85k is important. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May
2019, Recliner remarked: I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
In messge k, at
16:26:38 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Tim Woodall remarked: Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal? Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal. https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101 That's saying MedHotels wasn't acting simply as a conduit for orders/money but was doing much more, being a self-contained holiday-business with payments to hotels being imply one of its overheads. I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in mine. Yes, TheTrainline is acting as agent for the TOCs, and their turnover is only the 10% [well, 8% actually]. TheTrainline isn't a tour operator, in the sense of buying lots of London-Manchester Open Returns off Virgin, and then hoping customers will turn up and buy them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders. Similarly, Uber doesn't pre-buy driver-hours (or driver-miles) from the cabbies, and then hope it can sell them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 08:24:24 on Fri, 31 May 2019,
Roland Perry remarked: In messge k, at 16:26:38 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Tim Woodall remarked: Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal? Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal. https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...-agent-the-deb ate-over-online-travel-agents-20160101 That's saying MedHotels wasn't acting simply as a conduit for orders/money but was doing much more, being a self-contained holiday-business with payments to hotels being imply simply one of its overheads. I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in mine. Yes, TheTrainline is acting as agent for the TOCs, and their turnover is only the 10% [well, 8% actually]. TheTrainline isn't a tour operator, in the sense of buying lots of London-Manchester Open Returns off Virgin, and then hoping customers will turn up and buy them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders. Similarly, Uber doesn't pre-buy driver-hours (or driver-miles) from the cabbies, and then hope it can sell them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Recliner remarked: I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee. |
Uber and the VAT man
Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Recliner remarked: I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return home empty, they have to pay the fare toll out of their own pocket. So that is like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee. |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 08:24:12 on Fri, 31 May
2019, Recliner remarked: https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee. How do they handle the increasingly common "kiss and fly" fees at airports? -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
On 31/05/2019 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:24:12 on Fri, 31 May 2019, Recliner remarked: https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee. How do they handle the increasingly common "kiss and fly" fees at airports? For practical purposes that is a toll incurred while carrying the passenger(s) so they should get it repaid. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 10:04:48 on Fri, 31 May
2019, Graeme Wall remarked: On 31/05/2019 09:49, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:24:12 on Fri, 31 May 2019, Recliner remarked: https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/ho...-get-paid-and- how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee. How do they handle the increasingly common "kiss and fly" fees at airports? For practical purposes that is a toll incurred while carrying the passenger(s) so they should get it repaid. If they drop off and collect at the same time (within a window for which there's a non-excruciating parking fee), do both passengers pay the whole amount, each pay half, etc etc. Given that Uber is supposed to quote a charge before you start the trip, would they only be able to levy the absolute minimum fee on each individual pax (rather than what it cost the driver)? -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
On 31/05/2019 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:04:48 on Fri, 31 May 2019, Graeme Wall remarked: On 31/05/2019 09:49, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:24:12 on Fri, 31 May 2019, Recliner remarked: https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/ho...-get-paid-and- how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee. Â*How do they handle the increasingly common "kiss and fly" fees at airports? For practical purposes that is a toll incurred while carrying the passenger(s) so they should get it repaid. If they drop off and collect at the same time (within a window for which there's a non-excruciating parking fee), do both passengers pay the whole amount, each pay half, etc etc. Given that Uber is supposed to quote a charge before you start the trip, would they only be able to levy the absolute minimum fee on each individual pax (rather than what it cost the driver)? Probably -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Uber and the VAT man
On 30/05/2019 17:01, Recliner wrote:
JNugent wrote: On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote: JNugent remarked: Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively. If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver, that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your proposition. But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger (account-holder) on the spot? Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end of the month perhaps)? I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said. Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare. I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ ....and? That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver. The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion of Uber. I don't think credit card companies include the total value of thingsÂ* purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do collect theÂ* money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the balance to vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount outÂ* andÂ* then send an invoice asking for the commission back whenever theÂ* traderÂ* feels like it. I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers. Â*That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and channelÂ* it through to the merchants. They don't pay money to me. Â*I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's moneyÂ* from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's turnover. Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered / recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their turnover. They lend money to the buyer (at zero interest rate if they pay it off on demand). They don't lend money to the merchant. Does that apply to Uber? And TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is just the commission/fee element. But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the money they turn over is not part of their turnover. Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare. But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber. |
Uber and the VAT man
On 30/05/2019 17:26, Tim Woodall wrote:
On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote: Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare. I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal? Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal. https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101 I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in mine. "If". |
Uber and the VAT man
On 31/05/2019 09:24, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Recliner remarked: I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee. Taxi fare schedules with which i am familiar specify that any toll on the outward journey is doubled, so as to cater for the return journey. So that's a difference where Uber is concerned, not a similarity. |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 00:26:56 on Sat, 1 Jun
2019, JNugent remarked: On 31/05/2019 09:24, Recliner wrote: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Recliner remarked: I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/ho...vers-get-paid- and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee. Taxi fare schedules with which i am familiar specify that any toll on the outward journey is doubled, so as to cater for the return journey. So that's a difference where Uber is concerned, not a similarity. Following up on a question I asked earlier, I see that the biggest firm in my locality has as T&C: All fares are quoted in Pounds (£) Sterling GBP. The pick up fare includes initial 30 minutes waiting time, car parking fees, motorway toll fees and any congestion charges. But then kind of contradicts itself (drop-off fees are really a parking charge for the drop-off area, being metered by time) with: Stansted Airport and London Luton Airport have introduced a drop off fee to drivers on exiting the airport drop off area, this fee is currently set at £3.50[1] for Stansted and £3.00 for Luton. This is an addition(sic) charge to the listed pricing. The pick-up area at Stansted is a bus-ride away from the terminal building, which is a bit inconvenient if you've ordered a taxi. Luton airport describes its premium facility as both pick-up and drop-off. Birmingham airport (like Stansted) as only drop-off, but I've been picked up there by taxis. [1] According to the airport it's £4 for the first 10 minutes, then £1/minute. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
Roland Perry wrote:
In messge k, at 16:26:38 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Tim Woodall remarked: Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal? Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal. https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101 That's saying MedHotels wasn't acting simply as a conduit for orders/money but was doing much more, being a self-contained holiday-business with payments to hotels being imply one of its overheads. I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in mine. Yes, TheTrainline is acting as agent for the TOCs, and their turnover is only the 10% [well, 8% actually]. TheTrainline isn't a tour operator, in the sense of buying lots of London-Manchester Open Returns off Virgin, and then hoping customers will turn up and buy them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders. Similarly, Uber doesn't pre-buy driver-hours (or driver-miles) from the cabbies, and then hope it can sell them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders. And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in the quest for market sha https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rival-app-kapten-aims-to-drive-uber-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d61cbc54da17360bf58 ba6 This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers. |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked: And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in the quest for market sha https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...n=ae520e4dc8d6 1cbc54da17360bf58ba6 This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers. £7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem like it's worth it to me. But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in the quest for market sha https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...n=ae520e4dc8d6 1cbc54da17360bf58ba6 This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers. £7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem like it's worth it to me. That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car wash. But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal. No, I suppose not. At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans, not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce). |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in the quest for market sha https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6 1cbc54da17360bf58ba6 This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers. £7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem like it's worth it to me. That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car wash. But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal. No, I suppose not. At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans, That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van. But is unmarked (by signage, anyway) not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce). I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically on the doorstep. The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different, and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 08:45:55 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in the quest for market sha https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6 1cbc54da17360bf58ba6 This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers. £7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem like it's worth it to me. That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car wash. But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal. No, I suppose not. At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans, That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van. But is unmarked (by signage, anyway) not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce). I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically on the doorstep. The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different, and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot. That problem is easily solved by visiting a shop and buying the goods there. When you have a full time job you can't wait in for some oik in a van to show up sometime between 8am-8pm so end up collecting from the delivery office or depot anyway. Whats the point? |
Uber and the VAT man
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in the quest for market sha https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6 1cbc54da17360bf58ba6 This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers. £7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem like it's worth it to me. That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car wash. But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal. No, I suppose not. At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans, That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van. But is unmarked (by signage, anyway) Mine come from Hemel Hempstead. not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce). I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically on the doorstep. Yes, very likely. They certainly track them in real time, and so can you, as they show them on a map when they're under ten deliveries away, and tell you how many more they have to do before getting to you. The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different, and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot. I've had more than one Parcelforce 'delivery' where no delivery was attempted, and no postcard through the door. But on their website, they claimed that a delivery had been attempted, and the parcel had then been taken to the local Post Office. My guess is that the driver was running late, and just dropped all the remaining parcels off there. |
Uber and the VAT man
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Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 08:43:44 on Sun, 2 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in the quest for market sha https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6 1cbc54da17360bf58ba6 This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers. £7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem like it's worth it to me. That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car wash. But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal. No, I suppose not. At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans, That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van. But is unmarked (by signage, anyway) Mine come from Hemel Hempstead. Didn't we decide here was a local hub too, it's quite a way for every van driver on every delivery run to start from. not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce). I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically on the doorstep. Yes, very likely. They certainly track them in real time, and so can you, as they show them on a map when they're under ten deliveries away, and tell you how many more they have to do before getting to you. That varies a lot by courier. The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different, and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot. I've had more than one Parcelforce 'delivery' where no delivery was attempted, and no postcard through the door. But on their website, they claimed that a delivery had been attempted, and the parcel had then been taken to the local Post Office. My guess is that the driver was running late, and just dropped all the remaining parcels off there. Was that the local sub-post-office counter, or the sorting office? Usually their missed delivery card gives an option of collection from one or the other, or a re-delivery. Something the lack of a card is circumventing. If it had been left behind at the depot by mistake (or put in the wrong van) then later sending it to a sub-post-office could be their attempt to cover their tracks. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:43:44 on Sun, 2 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked: And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in the quest for market sha https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6 1cbc54da17360bf58ba6 This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers. £7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem like it's worth it to me. That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car wash. But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal. No, I suppose not. At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans, That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van. But is unmarked (by signage, anyway) Mine come from Hemel Hempstead. Didn't we decide here was a local hub too, it's quite a way for every van driver on every delivery run to start from. All my deliveries are assembled and despatched from Hemel. If I'm scheduled for early on the round, I can watch him speeding down the M1 and follow his route through the suburbs, as he drops off the earlier parcels. There are obviously other Amazon Logistics centres around the country. not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce). I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically on the doorstep. Yes, very likely. They certainly track them in real time, and so can you, as they show them on a map when they're under ten deliveries away, and tell you how many more they have to do before getting to you. That varies a lot by courier. Not with Amazon, which is what I'm describing. The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different, and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot. I've had more than one Parcelforce 'delivery' where no delivery was attempted, and no postcard through the door. But on their website, they claimed that a delivery had been attempted, and the parcel had then been taken to the local Post Office. My guess is that the driver was running late, and just dropped all the remaining parcels off there. Was that the local sub-post-office counter, or the sorting office? Lately, with Parcelforce, it's been the local sub-post office. Royal Mail deliveries (and they don't cheat) go back to the sorting office. Usually their missed delivery card gives an option of collection from one or the other, or a re-delivery. Something the lack of a card is circumventing. Royal Mail give the option, but not Parcelforce. If it had been left behind at the depot by mistake (or put in the wrong van) then later sending it to a sub-post-office could be their attempt to cover their tracks. Could be, but I think it's the driver(s) cheating. |
Uber and the VAT man
On 31/05/2019 08:01, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:43:29 on Thu, 30 May 2019, JNugent remarked: On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote: JNugent remarked: Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively. If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver, that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your proposition. But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger (account-holder) on the spot? Â*Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (endÂ* of the month perhaps)? I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said. I was asking for confirmation that they "turn over the whole fare collected from the passenger, on the spot". There's two aspects: The whole fare, and On the spot. Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare. No-one ever claimed otherwise. It's what they do after collecting it which matters. I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. Therefore you are now agreeing with my proposition that they pay the driver only part of what they collected from the passenger. Having deducted their commission. Not in the slightest. They do pay an amount to the driver. Whether that is a fixed proportion or a flat fee based on time or mileage is more than I know. I cannot agree that Uber pay the whole of the fare less their (Uber's) commission to the driver for the rather obvious reason that I do not know it to be true. Whether they pay it "on the spot", or perhaps 'at the end of the week' or whatever, is peripheral to that particular aspect. Is it? If you say so. I'm not convinced. That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passengerÂ* as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver. The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion of Uber. There are two models possible: Â* Passenger pays for the ride and the whole fare is collected by Uber Â* and sent to the driver (with Uber being in effect just a form of Â* merchant services dealing with the card payment). Later, Uber sends a Â* bill to the driver for his usage of their booking/billing platform. Or, Â* Passenger pays Uber for the ride, and they send him (maybe Â* immediately, maybe later) a piecework payment for having done the Â* driving aspect. True enough. In either csae, Uber turns over the whole of the fare. The perceptual difference being whether the passenger has just patronised a self-employed driver, or a multi-billion cab company. The only perception that matters is that of HMRC (and eventually, perhaps, the courts). TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is just the commission/fee element. But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the money they turn over is not part of their turnover. The two business models are very similar. Not at all. Does Trainline get 100% of the turnover of the TOCs running through its accounts? Uber certainly gets 100% of its own turnover passing through its books. Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare. But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber. Yes, I think we all understand why the £85k is important. Uber have to collect and pay VAT (this is not automatically so for other private hire drivers, proprietors or operators). The question is only the quantum of their turnover. |
Uber and the VAT man
On 01/06/2019 07:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 00:26:56 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019, JNugent remarked: On 31/05/2019 09:24, Recliner wrote: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Recliner remarked: I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle, Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money, after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday. https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/ https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/ho...vers-get-paid- and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/ Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected. One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee. Taxi fare schedules with which i am familiar specify that any toll on the outward journey is doubled, so as to cater for the return journey. So that's a difference where Uber is concerned, not a similarity. Following up on a question I asked earlier, I see that the biggest firm in my locality has as T&C: I wasn't talking about the policies of a "firm". I was describing the law, as provided by regulation and local by-law, made, as the case may be, under the Metropolitan Public Carriage Act 1869 (as amended), the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 and/or the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976. As I am sure you know, the law does not prescribe or control the charges made by the drivers or operators of private hire cars (including Uber). It only controls the fares of taxis. The private hire industry may charge what it likes (subject to martket conditions). All fares are quoted in Pounds (£) Sterling GBP. The pick up fare includes initial 30 minutes waiting time, car parking fees, motorway toll fees and any congestion charges. But then kind of contradicts itself (drop-off fees are really a parking charge for the drop-off area, being metered by time) with: Stansted Airport and London Luton Airport have introduced a drop off fee to drivers on exiting the airport drop off area, this fee is currently set at £3.50[1] for Stansted and £3.00 for Luton. This is an addition(sic) charge to the listed pricing. All fine. They can do as they like. There is no question of their not being allowed to do it. They are not taxis, after all. The pick-up area at Stansted is a bus-ride away from the terminal building, which is a bit inconvenient if you've ordered a taxi. Luton airport describes its premium facility as both pick-up and drop-off. Birmingham airport (like Stansted) as only drop-off, but I've been picked up there by taxis. [1] According to the airport it's £4 for the first 10 minutes, then £1/minute. |
Uber and the VAT man
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 10:25:48 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:14:05 on Sun, 2 Jun 2019, remarked: That problem is easily solved by visiting a shop and buying the goods there. Not really, even not-that-local shops don't have most of the things I buy online. Let alone the range of choice, or open Sundays. Unless you're buying dilithium for a warp drive you're building in your shed I'd be rather surprised if you couldn't find it in a shop. When you have a full time job you can't wait in for some oik in a van to show up sometime between 8am-8pm so end up collecting from the delivery office or depot anyway. Whats the point? We have neighbours, and they take parcels in. Other stuff fits through Yeah, and then when you go and collect them the neighbours are out or, as happened to my wife a few years back, they'd gone on holiday the same day and she had to wait a week to get her parcel. Also we've stopped accepting parcels for a certain neighbour who seems to order something every week, we're not the bloody post office. |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 13:56:23 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, JNugent remarked: I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. Therefore you are now agreeing with my proposition that they pay the driver only part of what they collected from the passenger. Having deducted their commission. Not in the slightest. They do pay an amount to the driver. Whether that is a fixed proportion or a flat fee based on time or mileage is more than I know. I cannot agree that Uber pay the whole of the fare less their (Uber's) commission to the driver for the rather obvious reason that I do not know it to be true. Even though you've been given plausible citations which say it is true? Whether they pay it "on the spot", or perhaps 'at the end of the week' or whatever, is peripheral to that particular aspect. Is it? If you say so. I'm not convinced. Even though you've been given plausible citations which say it is true? There are two models possible: * Passenger pays for the ride and the whole fare is collected by Uber * and sent to the driver (with Uber being in effect just a form of * merchant services dealing with the card payment). Later, Uber sends a * bill to the driver for his usage of their booking/billing platform. Or, * Passenger pays Uber for the ride, and they send him (maybe * immediately, maybe later) a piecework payment for having done the * driving aspect. True enough. In either csae, Uber turns over the whole of the fare. Now you are just being perverse. Paying the driver piece-work (if that were the model) is absolutely not handing over the whole fare. TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is just the commission/fee element. But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the money they turn over is not part of their turnover. The two business models are very similar. Not at all. Does Trainline get 100% of the turnover of the TOCs running through its accounts? Through its bank accounts - yes. Through its trading accounts - no. Uber certainly gets 100% of its own turnover passing through its books. But the question is: what of the turnover of its drivers passing though its "books", whatever the latter is supposed to mean. Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare. But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber. Yes, I think we all understand why the £85k is important. Uber have to collect and pay VAT (this is not automatically so for other private hire drivers, proprietors or operators). The question is only the quantum of their turnover. Indeed. Is it just the commission, or also the drivers' pay. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
In message , at 15:51:46 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, remarked: On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 10:25:48 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:14:05 on Sun, 2 Jun 2019, remarked: That problem is easily solved by visiting a shop and buying the goods there. Not really, even not-that-local shops don't have most of the things I buy online. Let alone the range of choice, or open Sundays. Unless you're buying dilithium for a warp drive you're building in your shed I'd be rather surprised if you couldn't find it in a shop. The example which for me was a tipping point involved black cup-hooks. Several shops (including ones with only seasonal DIY sections such as Sainsbury's) as well as regular hardware stores, pound-stores and so on had either chrome or white, or both. None had black. It doesn't help if I can buy chrome cup-hooks in five shops, but black ones in none. It's also a challenge to get spare parts, even from franchised outlets. A few years ago I needed a new glass turntable for my Panasonic Microwave oven, and by some miracle [do you have one nearby?] there was a Panasonic dealer in my High Street. They sent me packing, on the grounds that all they really wanted to sell me was a new flat-screen TV. A year or two previously I was "forced" to buy a Panasonic laptop by mail order from a dealership in I think Cornwall, because it was the only one in the whole country which had availability. When you have a full time job you can't wait in for some oik in a van to show up sometime between 8am-8pm so end up collecting from the delivery office or depot anyway. Whats the point? We have neighbours, and they take parcels in. Other stuff fits through Yeah, and then when you go and collect them the neighbours are out or, as happened to my wife a few years back, they'd gone on holiday the same day and she had to wait a week to get her parcel. Obviously the relationships with your neighbours have broken down, otherwise situations like that wouldn't happen. Also we've stopped accepting parcels for a certain neighbour who seems to order something every week, we're not the bloody post office. I'm happy to accept parcels that regularly for a neighbour who I know will claim it as soon as they arrive back home an hour or two later. Not so much for neighbours with a track record of waiting for several days. -- Roland Perry |
Uber and the VAT man
On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 12:06:40 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 15:51:46 on Sun, 2 Jun 2019, remarked: Yeah, and then when you go and collect them the neighbours are out or, as happened to my wife a few years back, they'd gone on holiday the same day and she had to wait a week to get her parcel. Obviously the relationships with your neighbours have broken down, otherwise situations like that wouldn't happen. They broke down long before that. The problem is that these delivery guys seem to think everyone is on good terms with their neighbour when it could be a golden opportunity for said neighbour to screw you over. |
Uber and the VAT man
On 03/06/2019 12:20, wrote:
On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 12:06:40 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 15:51:46 on Sun, 2 Jun 2019, remarked: Yeah, and then when you go and collect them the neighbours are out or, as happened to my wife a few years back, they'd gone on holiday the same day and she had to wait a week to get her parcel. Obviously the relationships with your neighbours have broken down, otherwise situations like that wouldn't happen. They broke down long before that. The problem is that these delivery guys seem to think everyone is on good terms with their neighbour when it could be a golden opportunity for said neighbour to screw you over. Why am I not surprised that Neil has trouble with his neighbours! -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Uber and the VAT man
On 03/06/2019 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:56:23 on Sun, 2 Jun 2019, JNugent remarked: I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting proceduresÂ* take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, IÂ* strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now. Â*Therefore you are now agreeing with my proposition that they pay the driver only part of what they collected from the passenger. Having deducted their commission. Not in the slightest. They do pay an amount to the driver. Whether that is a fixed proportion or a flat fee based on time or mileage is more than I know. I cannot agree that Uber pay the whole of the fare less their (Uber's) commission to the driver for the rather obvious reason that I do not know it to be true. Even though you've been given plausible citations which say it is true? Lots of incompatible things might be plausible. "Plausible" does not mean the same as "definitive". Whether they pay it "on the spot", or perhaps 'at the end of the week'Â* or whatever, is peripheral to that particular aspect. Is it? If you say so. I'm not convinced. Even though you've been given plausible citations which say it is true? See above. The word "plausible" used to be a weasel word attached to con-men and spivs. Â*There are two models possible: Â* Â* Passenger pays for the ride and the whole fare is collected by Uber Â*Â* and sent to the driver (with Uber being in effect just a form of Â*Â* merchant services dealing with the card payment). Later, Uber sends a Â*Â* bill to the driver for his usage of their booking/billing platform. Â*Or, Â* Â* Passenger pays Uber for the ride, and they send him (maybe Â*Â* immediately, maybe later) a piecework payment for having done the Â*Â* driving aspect. True enough. In either csae, Uber turns over the whole of the fare. Now you are just being perverse. Paying the driver piece-work (if that were the model) is absolutely not handing over the whole fare. I realised too late that "turns over" might be misinterpreted (whether inadvertently or mischievously) as "handed over". I mean that all of the money taken from the CC account of the hirer is turned over (meaning simply "taken" or "collected") by Uber. I hope that's clearer. TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is just the commission/fee element. But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the money they turn over is not part of their turnover. Â*The two business models are very similar. Not at all. Does Trainline get 100% of the turnover of the TOCs running through its accounts? Through its bank accounts - yes. Through its trading accounts - no. Rubbish. That could not be true unless trainline.com were the only way of buying a railway ticket. And it isn't. Uber certainly gets 100% of its own turnover passing through its books. But the question is: what of the turnover of its drivers passing though its "books", whatever the latter is supposed to mean. That's a matter to be decided by HMRC and/or the courts. Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare. But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber. Â*Yes, I think we all understand why the £85k is important. Uber have to collect and pay VAT (this is not automatically so for other private hire drivers, proprietors or operators). The question is only the quantum of their turnover. Indeed. Is it just the commission, or also the drivers' pay. Indeed. That is the question which has to be decided by an official body (probably the Court of Appeal, in the end). |
Uber and the VAT man
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