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Old May 19th 19, 10:31 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

Uber may be forced to levy VAT on its fares, with a potentially huge
retrospective bill.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/passengers-face-fare-hikes-after-uber-accused-of-taking-taxman-for-1bn-ride-vt8ht588w?shareToken=10f759b81ee2f668f9176a2c196d3 f65


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Old May 19th 19, 10:56 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

In message , at 10:31:27 on Sun, 19 May
2019, Recliner remarked:
Uber may be forced to levy VAT on its fares, with a potentially huge
retrospective bill.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...ikes-after-ube
r-accused-of-taking-taxman-for-1bn-ride-vt8ht588w?shareToken=10f759b81ee
2f668f9176a2c196d3f65


Even if it turns out that individual drivers don't have to charge their
passengers VAT, what about the bills (for use of the platform) from Uber
to the drivers?[1] Although if those turned out to be taxable, it's only
Uber that would stand the retrospective loss. Future commission rates
(and hence fares for users) would likely rise though.

Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

[1] Or is that what they refer to as "gross bookings"?
--
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Old May 19th 19, 11:27 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

On Sun, 19 May 2019 11:56:10 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 10:31:27 on Sun, 19 May
2019, Recliner remarked:
Uber may be forced to levy VAT on its fares, with a potentially huge
retrospective bill.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...ikes-after-ube
r-accused-of-taking-taxman-for-1bn-ride-vt8ht588w?shareToken=10f759b81ee
2f668f9176a2c196d3f65


Even if it turns out that individual drivers don't have to charge their
passengers VAT, what about the bills (for use of the platform) from Uber
to the drivers?[1] Although if those turned out to be taxable, it's only
Uber that would stand the retrospective loss. Future commission rates
(and hence fares for users) would likely rise though.


Yes, almost certainly.


Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?


I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.


[1] Or is that what they refer to as "gross bookings"?

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Old May 19th 19, 11:40 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

In message , at 12:27:00 on
Sun, 19 May 2019, Recliner remarked:

Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?


I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.


It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.
--
Roland Perry
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Old May 21st 19, 10:26 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

On 19/05/2019 12:40, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:27:00 on
Sun, 19 May 2019, Recliner remarked:

Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?


I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.


It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.


Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than £85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate? As the service of matching
user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of product then
it could legitimately be said to happen offshore. (I'm not a VAT
expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are basing it off).


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Old May 21st 19, 10:45 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

In message , at 11:26:50 on Tue, 21 May
2019, Someone Somewhere remarked:
On 19/05/2019 12:40, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:27:00
on Sun, 19 May 2019, Recliner remarked:

Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base
itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.

It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.


Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than 85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?


The change in 2015 was to make the supplier charge the VAT rate in the
customer's [in this case the Uber driver's] country.
--
Roland Perry
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Old May 21st 19, 11:48 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

On 21/05/2019 11:26, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/05/2019 12:40, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:27:00
on Sun, 19 May 2019, Recliner remarked:

Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.


It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.


Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than £85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?* As the service of matching
user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of product then
it could legitimately be said to happen offshore.* (I'm not a VAT
expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are basing it off).


With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK), the
charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges in the
UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the charge.
How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but all of it will
be liable to the tax if any of it is.

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Old May 21st 19, 12:23 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

On 21/05/2019 12:48, JNugent wrote:
On 21/05/2019 11:26, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/05/2019 12:40, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:27:00
on Sun, 19 May 2019, Recliner remarked:

Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base
itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.

It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.


Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than £85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?* As the service of
matching user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of
product then it could legitimately be said to happen offshore.* (I'm
not a VAT expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are
basing it off).


With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK), the
charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges in the
UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the charge.
How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but all of it will
be liable to the tax if any of it is.


VAT was never my specialist subject but there are various
misunderstandings of the basics of how it works with intra-EU
transnational business to business supplies. Uber set out quite clearly
how they operate he

https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/tax-information/

Note especially the reference to the fact that it's an Uber company in
the Netherlands that supplies the service and to the "reverse charge"
scheme.

All this is contentious. But the UK's not the only EU country that's
accepted it. As have others fiscs. See eg

https://library.croneri.co.uk/acmag_185098

--
Robin
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Old May 21st 19, 12:40 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

In message , at 12:48:07 on Tue, 21
May 2019, JNugent remarked:
Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.

It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.

Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than 85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?* As the service of
matching user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of
product then it could legitimately be said to happen offshore.* (I'm
not a VAT expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are basing it off).


With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK), the
charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges in the
UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the charge.
How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but all of it
will be liable to the tax if any of it is.


The theory is that with taxi drivers below the 85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.
--
Roland Perry
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Old May 21st 19, 02:29 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Uber and the VAT man

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:48:07 on Tue, 21
May 2019, JNugent remarked:
Would it mitigate that (a little anyway) if Uber decided to base itself
in Luxembourg like some other online platforms do?

I think they still have to charge and pay UK VAT for trade services in
the UK. Even Uber can't claim they're delivering the service in
Luxembourg. If you, as a private individual, buy something mail order
from Luxembourg, they have to charge you VAT; only if you provide a
VAT number do they not have to do so.

It seems that there was a rule change in Jan 2015 which essentially
blocked the Luxembourg-loophole for VAT.
Presumably though the service is provided by the driver and is
un-VATable (unless they earn more than £85k or whatever), but the
service provided by the platform (ie the server) could actually be
abroad and hence charged at their VAT rate?* As the service of
matching user to platform doesn't result in any physical delivery of
product then it could legitimately be said to happen offshore.* (I'm
not a VAT expert, but I gueess this is the sort of thing they are basing it off).


With Uber (which I have used only twice, neither time in the UK), the
charges are payable to Uber. If UK VAT applies to their charges in the
UK, it will have to be paid to Uber, presumably at 20% of the charge.
How Uber divide up the charge (ex-VAT) is up to them, but all of it
will be liable to the tax if any of it is.


The theory is that with taxi drivers below the £85k VAT limit, they
can't charge their riders VAT.


The question is what service Uber is providing to the passengers: a taxi
service or a booking service. Similarly, does it employ the drivers, or
just provide a booking service for them?



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